Theo Is Gone - Boston Herald

[example1]

I'm not at all happy about this. I wish he had done better. I thought we had a good team to start the season. I still think if he made one or two moves at the trading deadline that the Sox are in the playoffs. Fister would have put us in the ALCS' date='[/b'] but Theo thought that he didn't need to pay the price and that we had the post season locked up. He miscalculated terribly. Add this year's flop to last year's flop, a sweep in 2009, and his horrendous record with FA's and he was doomed. It was his responsibility. He did a lousy job and he paid the price with his job, but hey he is going to a make a ton of money from his failure, so there's no reason to shed tears for him. Speaking for myself, I always liked Theo. When he made mistakes, he stood up and took the hits, even though so many were willing to let him slide. Criticism of an organization is healthy and this FO under Theo lost some of its edge. It was time for new blood. I'm not happy about being right in this instance. He had to go. Big changes are needed.

 

When the Mets had their collapse in 2007, Mets fans thought Willie Randolph and Omar Minaya would be fired. Instead, Randolph stayed on and Minaya got an extension. The following season, 2008 was practically a carbon copy of 2007. They missed the playoffs on the final day of the season. Their franchise is still reeling. Cleaning house was the right business move, and these owners know how to run a business.

 

Really? Now your 20/20 hindsight is saying Fister would have put us in the ALCS? That's absurd man, c'mon. If that's the case then this team doesn't need to be blown up.. they need a mid-rotation starter. Big difference

[a700hitter]

I figured that he lit up a cigar and went to the pharmacy to pick up some Enzyte before chugging some vodka and chasing after a few loose bar skanks.

Hey, I don't need the enzyte. And I don't need to be celebrating anything to chase skanks, so you can't draw an inferences from that.

[a700hitter]

Really? Now your 20/20 hindsight is saying Fister would have put us in the ALCS? That's absurd man' date=' c'mon. If that's the case then this team doesn't need to be blown up.. they need a mid-rotation starter. Big difference[/quote']I never said that the team needs to get blown up.

[example1]

I never said that the team needs to get blown up.

 

If the team was one mid-rotation starter from a sure ALCS victory then they don't even need a new GM, unless the reasoning is simply that someone has to take a fall whenever the ultimate objective isn't accomplished, which isn't good team management its just ruthless head-chopping.

 

That's not reasonable. It's impulsive, indescriminate, and arbitrary.

[a700hitter]

Really? Now your 20/20 hindsight is saying Fister would have put us in the ALCS? That's absurd man' date=' c'mon. If that's the case then this team doesn't need to be blown up.. they need a mid-rotation starter. Big difference[/quote']I also said that if they had kept Millwood instead of running Wakefield and Weiland that they probably make the playoffs. The problem was that we got an injured pitcher that couldn't take his turn. I still feel that way. They only needed to win one more game. I think Millwood would have given us that. Fister would have performed well in the post season for us as he has for the Tigers, and yes, I think that Beckett, Lester and Fister could have gotten us to the ALCS.

[example1]

Adding to my point: I get the sense that you are much more concerned with the appearance of order than with addressing the actual locus of the problem.

 

The removal of a GM for the performance of his players in a multiple-week period is all for show. There may be questions about his acquisitions on the FA market (I dont hear people criticizing his trades for V-Mart or Bay or of Nomar to bring in O-Cab), but those FA acquisitions were all under the direct approval and collaboration of the ownership group. Crawford, Dice-K, Lackey, all had to be approved of by ownership and Lucchino. They are just as accountable.

 

So again, the issue becomes one of removing someone much more for show than for real impact. The same reasoning, computer program and personalities will go into decisions moving forward.

 

That's what makes me think this is much mroe about Theo getting his in a more prominant position and getting out of the shadow of Lucchino than it is about the Sox "having to do something" because he had "lost his edge".

 

But that's just me.. as Jayhawk Bill used to say, YMMV.

[a700hitter]

If the team was one mid-rotation starter from a sure ALCS victory then they don't even need a new GM' date=' unless the reasoning is simply that [i']someone[/i] has to take a fall whenever the ultimate objective isn't accomplished, which isn't good team management its just ruthless head-chopping.

 

That's not reasonable. It's impulsive, indescriminate, and arbitrary.

You can look at it the other way-- that a team with so much talent only needed a little tweak to get it into the post season. He didn't do what little was necessary. His final week pursuit of Capuano and Chen was damning evidence that he had blown it at the trading deadline.

[example1]

I also said that if they had kept Millwood instead of running Wakefield and Weiland that they probably make the playoffs. The problem was that we got an injured pitcher that couldn't take his turn. I still feel that way. They only needed to win one more game. I think Millwood would have given us that. Fister would have performed well in the post season for us as he has for the Tigers' date=' and yes, I think that Beckett, Lester and Fister could have gotten us to the ALCS.[/quote']

 

I think Beckett, Lester and Lackey could have gotten them to the ALCS, or Dice-K, or Buchholz or Bedard. The team--the players--literally shat themselves when it mattered most. ALmost all of those players will be back next year and they will be expected to get there again, with few (or no) significant additions.

 

Again, this team would have had the most homegrown contributions of all teams in baseball if it had made the playoffs this year (by homegrown WAR as a percentage of total WAR). That's significant.

 

The FA moves sucked by and large, which really only justified Theo's original position that FA isn't the way to go. Homegrown players and transition years don't work for the population of Boston (including yourself) so people weren't willing to wait for Rizzo and Kalish and Kelly and Masterson etc., so instead they spent those guys for FAs who would have been available any way, lost the depth and didn't improve significantly.

 

Boston is a fishbowl, but it isn't indicative of fans who are particularly intelligent. It is indicitive of fans who feel entitled to win every year and who are constantly asking "what have you done for me lately".

 

The team will be fine. They will get another good GM. They just lost a pretty good one in Theo, though, and those who are saying "don't let the door hit you on the way out" I think you're overvaluing your own opinion.

 

(a700, I realize you're not saying that).

[a700hitter]

Adding to my point: I get the sense that you are much more concerned with the appearance of order than with addressing the actual locus of the problem.

 

The removal of a GM for the performance of his players in a multiple-week period is all for show. There may be questions about his acquisitions on the FA market (I dont hear people criticizing his trades for V-Mart or Bay or of Nomar to bring in O-Cab), but those FA acquisitions were all under the direct approval and collaboration of the ownership group. Crawford, Dice-K, Lackey, all had to be approved of by ownership and Lucchino. They are just as accountable.

 

So again, the issue becomes one of removing someone much more for show than for real impact. The same reasoning, computer program and personalities will go into decisions moving forward.

 

That's what makes me think this is much mroe about Theo getting his in a more prominant position and getting out of the shadow of Lucchino than it is about the Sox "having to do something" because he had "lost his edge".

 

But that's just me.. as Jayhawk Bill used to say, YMMV.

In a big organization, the moves at the top are often for show. Nothing sends a message to the rest of the organization like firing one of the top guys. It sends shock waves through an organization. Everyone will have resumes circulating if they haven't already done it.

[FredLynn]

Bummer...

 

Thanks for Dave Roberts

Thanks for Ellsbury and Pedroia and a number of other really, really successful choices he made during his tenure.

 

Others will undoubtedly be happy to see him go, I think he will be hard to replace and will end up in Cooperstown. We will see.

 

Yeah, and thanks for Cameron, Lackey, Crawford, Lugo, Renteria, Smoltz, Penny, Gagne, Clement, Schoenweiss, Wakefield over the past two years and all the rest of the dregs you have allowed to wear the Sox uniform.

Cherington should not be hired; he is an insider. If we want the me me me attitude to end, the new GM should come from outside the organization.

[italstallianion]

I think that I'm going to run for Red Sox GM, get your write in ballots ready!!

[example1]

You can look at it the other way-- that a team with so much talent only needed a little tweak to get it into the post season. He didn't do what little was necessary. His final week pursuit of Capuano and Chen was damning evidence that he had blown it at the trading deadline.

 

Would any of those moves have helped Papelbon close the door when it mattered? If he had done it twice the team would be in. It really was that simple. No extra moves necessary. Shut the Orioles down twice and the team is in, the Rays aren't, and they are in the second season of baseball.

 

Much less complicated than making the perfect move.

 

Furthermore, I wouldn't advocate trading a player like Kalish for a guy like Fister anyway. It's an unnecessary overpay. No GM would expect this team to play below .333 for the last month. I don't care who it is. Friedman, Daniels, etc., all would have held their cards and not planned for the worst collapse in sports history. You play probabilities and sometimes they will bite you in the ass.

[a700hitter]

I think Beckett, Lester and Lackey could have gotten them to the ALCS, or Dice-K, or Buchholz or Bedard. The team--the players--literally shat themselves when it mattered most. ALmost all of those players will be back next year and they will be expected to get there again, with few (or no) significant additions.

 

Again, this team would have had the most homegrown contributions of all teams in baseball if it had made the playoffs this year (by homegrown WAR as a percentage of total WAR). That's significant.

 

The FA moves sucked by and large, which really only justified Theo's original position that FA isn't the way to go. Homegrown players and transition years don't work for the population of Boston (including yourself) so people weren't willing to wait for Rizzo and Kalish and Kelly and Masterson etc., so instead they spent those guys for FAs who would have been available any way, lost the depth and didn't improve significantly.

 

Boston is a fishbowl, but it isn't indicative of fans who are particularly intelligent. It is indicitive of fans who feel entitled to win every year and who are constantly asking "what have you done for me lately".

 

The team will be fine. They will get another good GM. They just lost a pretty good one in Theo, though, and those who are saying "don't let the door hit you on the way out" I think you're overvaluing your own opinion.

 

(a700, I realize you're not saying that).

Well, I see that you have moved beyond denial to anger. That's good, and this housecleaning is healthy and it will be good for the organization.

[NativeBostonian]

Adding to my point: I get the sense that you are much more concerned with the appearance of order than with addressing the actual locus of the problem.

 

The removal of a GM for the performance of his players in a multiple-week period is all for show. There may be questions about his acquisitions on the FA market (I dont hear people criticizing his trades for V-Mart or Bay or of Nomar to bring in O-Cab), but those FA acquisitions were all under the direct approval and collaboration of the ownership group. Crawford, Dice-K, Lackey, all had to be approved of by ownership and Lucchino. They are just as accountable.

 

So again, the issue becomes one of removing someone much more for show than for real impact. The same reasoning, computer program and personalities will go into decisions moving forward.

 

That's what makes me think this is much mroe about Theo getting his in a more prominant position and getting out of the shadow of Lucchino than it is about the Sox "having to do something" because he had "lost his edge".

 

But that's just me.. as Jayhawk Bill used to say, YMMV.

 

You can't criticize him for the V-Mart, or Bay trade. They were good trades. But, he didn't keep them, which he should have. So no matter how good those trades were, it is overshadow by his harible move by not keeping them. Lets face it, Theo wasn't a good GM. He is widely overrated. He made some good moves. But that is miniscule in comparison to the bad moves he made. Anyone could make some good moves with the money he had to work with.

[example1]

Well' date=' I see that you have moved beyond denial to anger. That's good, and this housecleaning is healthy and it will be good for the organization.[/quote']

 

I'm not angry and I was never in denail. Find me one place where I said definitively it wouldn't happen.. just one. No denial.

 

I'm not angry either. A bit disappointed. I think this franchise is reeling because of a media and fan backlash that is based in emotion and not reason. They parted ways with a good manager and, potentially, a HOF caliber GM because of absurd standards.

 

The next GM will have the exact same problems. His success will be determined by the play of the guys on the field and if they suck--if Beckett chooses to not prepare or if Papelbon blows important games--the results will be similar.

[FredLynn]

Would any of those moves have helped Papelbon close the door when it mattered? If he had done it twice the team would be in. It really was that simple. No extra moves necessary. Shut the Orioles down twice and the team is in, the Rays aren't, and they are in the second season of baseball.

 

Much less complicated than making the perfect move.

 

Furthermore, I wouldn't advocate trading a player like Kalish for a guy like Fister anyway. It's an unnecessary overpay. No GM would expect this team to play below .333 for the last month. I don't care who it is. Friedman, Daniels, etc., all would have held their cards and not planned for the worst collapse in sports history. You play probabilities and sometimes they will bite you in the ass.

 

Yes, we would/should have made it into the playoffs. But just how far would we have gone? Not far at all IMHO. We finished NINTH in overall pitching in the league this year. How were we going to make a serious run with guys like Lackey, Wakefield, Albers, Miller, Morales, and Weiland on the staff? And who is responsible for our pitching staff being in such dire straits? Thats right: Theo Epstein. He really isn't a very good judge of FA talent at all.

[redsoxrules]

You can't criticize him for the V-Mart' date=' or Bay trade. They were good trades. But, he didn't keep them, which he should have. So no matter how good those trades were, it is overshadow by his harible move by not keeping them. Lets face it, Theo wasn't a good GM. He is widely overrated.[/quote']

 

letting Bay go was a great move, if you haven't noticed he's been brutal since leaving Boston.

 

V-mart on the other hand should have been signed

[a700hitter]

Would any of those moves have helped Papelbon close the door when it mattered? If he had done it twice the team would be in. It really was that simple. No extra moves necessary. Shut the Orioles down twice and the team is in, the Rays aren't, and they are in the second season of baseball.

 

Much less complicated than making the perfect move.

 

Furthermore, I wouldn't advocate trading a player like Kalish for a guy like Fister anyway. It's an unnecessary overpay. No GM would expect this team to play below .333 for the last month. I don't care who it is. Friedman, Daniels, etc., all would have held their cards and not planned for the worst collapse in sports history. You play probabilities and sometimes they will bite you in the ass.

Everything went wrong for the Sox -- Lester, Beckett, Papelbon and Bard all failed, and they still missed the post season by 1 stinking game. It wouldn't have taken much to turn the disaster into the playoffs. Theo didn't get it done. It's the small details that bite you in the ass sometime, but they are usually indicative of deeper issues. There were deeper issues, but Theo probably would have survived if the team had made the playoffs and definitely if they got to the ALCS.

[FredLynn]

I'm not angry and I was never in denail. Find me one place where I said definitively it wouldn't happen.. just one. No denial.

 

I'm not angry either. A bit disappointed. I think this franchise is reeling because of a media and fan backlash that is based in emotion and not reason. They parted ways with a good manager and, potentially, a HOF caliber GM because of absurd standards.

 

The next GM will have the exact same problems. His success will be determined by the play of the guys on the field and if they suck--if Beckett chooses to not prepare or if Papelbon blows important games--the results will be similar.

 

Both Epstein and Francona were responsible for the me me me and anything goes attitude in the clubhouse. Those factors played as big a role as our lack of pitching in our failures this year. Once those two are gone rebuilding can commence, assuming we get the right people in those positions.

[Spitball]

I keep going back and forth in my mind on this. He brought a couple of championships, but he had resources not available in Pittsburgh, Kansas City, and most other markets. He made some great moves, but he made some vital mistakes. I hate to see him go, but I am ready for a change.

 

When I first saw the story, I thought it was totally unfair for him to leave the Sox with bad contracts and a depleted farm system...then I remembered he was going to the Cubs. Good luck with that mess.

[example1]

You can't criticize him for the V-Mart' date=' or Bay trade. They were good trades. But, he didn't keep them, which he should have. So no matter how good those trades were, it is overshadow by his harible move by not keeping them. Lets face it, Theo wasn't a good GM. He is widely overrated.[/quote']

 

You think he should have kept Jason Bay?

 

I think we will see. Jason Bay became Carl Crawford, Bryce Brentz and Brandon Workman. Let's check in in a few years about whether any of those guys were worth it.

 

V-Mart became Matt Barnes and Henry Owings, and maybe some money for Adrian Gonzalez. Again, let's see how that works out over time.

 

Historically the Sox are reaping the benefits of letting FAs go:

 

Orlando Cabrera became Ellsbury and Lowrie

Pedro Martinez became Clay Buchholz

 

The Red Sox literally would not have those players if those veterans were re-signed.

 

The top 4 picks for the Sox this year (Barnes, Swihart, Owens, Bradley Jr,) , and the top 4 picks for the Sox in 2010 (Vitek, Brentz, Ranaudo, Workman) were ALL because of released players. Time will tell.

[a700hitter]

I'm not angry and I was never in denail. Find me one place where I said definitively it wouldn't happen.. just one. No denial.

 

I'm not angry either. A bit disappointed. I think this franchise is reeling because of a media and fan backlash that is based in emotion and not reason. They parted ways with a good manager and, potentially, a HOF caliber GM because of absurd standards.

 

The next GM will have the exact same problems. His success will be determined by the play of the guys on the field and if they suck--if Beckett chooses to not prepare or if Papelbon blows important games--the results will be similar.

You were in plenty of denial that the failure was Theo's responsibility. Many posts were exchanged with you, me and IOrtiz on that topic. The owners agreed with me and IOrtiz, and so did Theo. He never made excuses, probably one of his most admirable qualities. I do have faith in and a very high regard for this ownership. They are doing what is right for the franchise.

 

It does seem like you have transitioned into anger at this most recent news. Gosh, you're the social worker. Do you really need me to tell you that you are going though the grieving process?

[example1]

Everything went wrong for the Sox -- Lester' date=' Beckett, Papelbon and Bard all failed, and they still missed the post season by 1 stinking game. It wouldn't have taken much to turn the disaster into the playoffs. Theo didn't get it done. It's the small details that bite you in the ass sometime, but they are usually indicative of deeper issues. There were deeper issues, but [b']Theo probably would have survived if the team had made the playoffs and definitely if they got to the ALCS[/b].

 

It sounds like Theo is about to leave for significantly more money, more influence and a less harsh city. I think it is foolish to assume that he would be out if the Cubs weren't courting him so hard.. we will see of course.

[NativeBostonian]

letting Bay go was a great move, if you haven't noticed he's been brutal since leaving Boston.

 

V-mart on the other hand should have been signed

 

First off, look at the park he is playing in. No one could put up numbers there. Secently, look what he did with the sox. Haven't we learned, it isn't all about how skilled the guy is, you have to look at how he fits your team and park. Bay was great when he was here in Boston.

[Palodios]

letting Bay go was a great move, if you haven't noticed he's been brutal since leaving Boston.

 

V-mart on the other hand should have been signed

 

The majority of Vmart's games this year have been 1B/DH. Our DH hits better than Vmart. Our 1B hits better than Vmart. And the Red Sox picked up the 19th and 36th overall draft pick by letting him go.

[example1]

You were in plenty of denial that the failure was Theo's responsibility. Many posts were exchanged with you, me and IOrtiz on that topic. The owners agreed with me and IOrtiz, and so did Theo. He never made excuses, probably one of his most admirable qualities. I do have faith in and a very high regard for this ownership. They are doing what is right for the franchise.

 

It does seem like you have transitioned into anger at this most recent news. Gosh, you're the social worker. Do you really need me to tell you that you are going though the grieving process?

 

He has responsibility for the team not doing as well as it could, but I think it is foolish to think that he has more responsibilty for this than the players. If a player messes up it is first and foremost the responsibilty of the player to take accountbilty and of the FO to hold that player accountable.

 

Having the FO turned on its head, lopping off heads (which isn't what's happening here, but which many here would have liked to see) is absolving the players of responsibility.

 

I should start the clock on the ownership releasing Josh Beckett, Lester, etc., for their failure to be in shape or perform when needed. I bet the clock just goes and goes and goes.

[example1]

First off' date=' look at the park he is playing in. No one could put up numbers there. Secently, look what he did with the sox. Haven't we learned, it isn't all about how skilled the guy is, you have to look at how he fits your team and park. Bay was great when he was here in Boston.[/quote']

 

People were saying the same thing about Pedro after his first season... let's see how this turns out long term, and see how V-Marts peripheral numbers stack up against guys like Ortiz and Gonzalez and Youkilis and, even, Lavarnway.

[Palodios]

It sounds like Theo is about to leave for significantly more money' date=' more influence and a less harsh city. I think it is foolish to assume that he would be out if the Cubs weren't courting him so hard.. we will see of course.[/quote']

 

I'm still very surprised the Cubs want Theo so badly. They have somewhere between 60-80 million per year coming off the books in 2012-2013. They seem like they're in a better position to start competing now, rather than drafting a good core to build for the future.

[example1]

I'm still very surprised the Cubs want Theo so badly. They have somewhere between 60-80 million per year coming off the books in 2012-2013. They seem like they're in a better position to start competing now' date=' rather than drafting a good core to build for the future.[/quote']

 

All things considered, it is ALWAYS better to build a good core for the future.

 

Strong clubs like the Sox, Yankees and PHillies do their best when they develop players from within. When they have a strong, cost-controlled class AND their excessive financial muscle, that's when they have their strongest advantage.

 

The Sox were too heavy on the FA side of things. Of course, the fans demanded it, so make of it what you will...

 

(also, ratings were up 7% this year on WEEI, so ownership is happy regardless)

[NativeBostonian]

People were saying the same thing about Pedro after his first season... let's see how this turns out long term' date=' and see how V-Marts peripheral numbers stack up against guys like Ortiz and Gonzalez and Youkilis and, even, Lavarnway.[/quote']

 

Lavarnway is far from V-Mart and watching Salty makes me want to shoot myself.