Which players ended up costing Francona his job?

[a700hitter]

Really? So interrupting your manager during a press conference to complain about a RBI screams team player to you? Question his manager about Aceves is another thing.

I don't think it spells clubhouse cancer either. He always had the backs of his team mates. When Salty stuck his foot in his mouth about hispanic players, Ortiz had his back and said that Salty was right and that he was a good guy who didn't mean anything bad. More stories are going to have to leak to make me think he was a clubhouse problem. I've never read or heard anything negative about Ortiz coming from the other players or from the manager all through the years.

 

Maybe Salty should be shown the door for his negative comments about Hispanic players.

[iortiz]

To be fair and aren't alot of premium bats among the FA this year. The first question is was big Papi apart of this clubhouse mess.

 

The first question should be how much money will be available before the luxury tax cap? 25-30 MUSD? And are they willing/expecting to overpass it? I don't think so. Seems like our arcs this time will be devastated (Thanks Theo) and we won't have room in order to make at least the needed moves (SP,Closer, Pitching-depth, etc.) next season, so... If we can sign a guy like Ortiz for a decent contract (6-7 MUSD/ year) I would do it in a heartbeat.

[iortiz]

I don't think it spells clubhouse cancer either. He always had the backs of his team mates. When Salty stuck his foot in his mouth about hispanic players, Ortiz had his back and said that Salty was right and that he was a good guy who didn't mean anything bad. More stories are going to have to leak to make me think he was a clubhouse problem. I've never read or heard anything negative about Ortiz coming from the other players or from the manager all through the years.

 

Maybe Salty should be shown the door for his negative comments about Hispanic players.

 

what did he say?

[Cairns_Sox]

I don't think it spells clubhouse cancer either. He always had the backs of his team mates. When Salty stuck his foot in his mouth about hispanic players, Ortiz had his back and said that Salty was right and that he was a good guy who didn't mean anything bad. More stories are going to have to leak to make me think he was a clubhouse problem. I've never read or heard anything negative about Ortiz coming from the other players or from the manager all through the years.

 

Maybe Salty should be shown the door for his negative comments about Hispanic players.

 

Just to clarify, I'm hoping he is not apart of this cancer. The above mentioned incidents are something I didn't think was good. But as a whole I hope he isn't. I agree with you on having Salty's back but interrupting your manager when he is addressing the media (the guy that has everyone's back, the one who takes the fall for everyone is not on in my opinion. There is a place and time). To question his decisions too is a big thing in my opinion. Especially in this media market. Stiring the pot.

[a700hitter]

This is probably something we will disagree on... like so much else.

 

I think it is a pretty big deal. I think it comes out poorly, just like arguing strike 3 when you're up by 7 runs. I just think there's a better way to do it. It's not the one factor I would use, but it doesn't earn him any extra points in my book.

 

Mostly I'm just frustrated that I didn't hear about any leadership from this guy. Of everyone on this team who could have stepped up and held a team meeting or kicked some ass of guys like Beckett or Lackey it would have been Papi. He's older, established and undoubtedly ownership would have had his back.

 

Now, Papi makes clear in a recent interview that he saw that as Tito's job. That's probably true. However, Tito's philosophy was to let the players police themselves. That's how a good manager operates when it is appropriate. A good organization doesn't need management micromanaging s***. Employees manage themselves, allowing the manager to focus on the stuff they should be focusing on. You know this as well as I do.

 

Neither of us know the details, but if he was part of the problem, or could have stepped up more and didn't, then Im fine with them finding someone who will.

Obviously, no one stepped up and said anything. No one got in the players faces., not even Pedroia. That doesn't mean they were all cancers. If you are gonna load Ortiz on the moving van, because he didn't speak up then you'd have to load everyone in the truck with him. Not speaking up doesn't equate to being a clubhouse cancer. Most players are very reluctant to do that. Derek Jeter would never do it. I don't think he is a clubhouse cancer.

[a700hitter]

what did he say?

Here's a link to one of the stories.

 

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/columnists/view/2011_0901papi_calms_the_waters_defends_teammatefor_salty_language/

 

I am sure that the clubhouse problems were identified by Tito in the meeting before he was fired. I think the big culprit was probably Lackey, since he had lost all control of his emotions and discretion. His behavior was on full display. As for everyone else, I think we would just be guessing. If Ortiz comes back in 2012, I think that will confirm that he was not part of the problem.

[iortiz]

Here's a link to one of the stories.

 

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/columnists/view/2011_0901papi_calms_the_waters_defends_teammatefor_salty_language/

 

I am sure that the clubhouse problems were identified by Tito in the meeting before he was fired. I think the big culprit was probably Lackey, since he had lost all control of his emotions and discretion. His behavior was on full display. As for everyone else, I think we would just be guessing. If Ortiz comes back in 2012, I think that will confirm that he was not part of the problem.

 

I remember. I think Ortiz is a great guy, and if he accepts a decent contract, he'll be ok.

 

Who really worries me is Youk. He is not in shape and he will go to surgery. I'm not sure if we gonna see again the great Youk we used to see.

[example1]

Here's a link to one of the stories.

 

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/columnists/view/2011_0901papi_calms_the_waters_defends_teammatefor_salty_language/

 

I am sure that the clubhouse problems were identified by Tito in the meeting before he was fired. I think the big culprit was probably Lackey, since he had lost all control of his emotions and discretion. His behavior was on full display. As for everyone else, I think we would just be guessing. If Ortiz comes back in 2012, I think that will confirm that he was not part of the problem.

 

Tito noted players that he had been able to get through to in the past but who he was struggling with presently. To me that potentially signals guys like Beckett, Lester, youkilis, Ortiz, Tek, and probably Wakefield ad included in the group of potential culprits. You could be absolutely right about Lackey, but he specifically indicated guys who had been around and reachable before.

 

The question for me is how they can set up the team so guys like Ellsbury and pedroia can take over as leaders. Does that require moving some of the old guard out? Team dynamics and on field production might not be the sane thing here.

[a700hitter]

I remember. I think Ortiz is a great guy, and if he accepts a decent contract, he'll be ok.

 

Who really worries me is Youk. He is not in shape and mostly he will go to surgery. I'm not sure if we gonna see again the Youk who used to be.

Youk works like a mad man, but the guy is too thick. As he is getting up in age, he will need to trim some weight off his frame to help his durability. Aceves lost about 30 lbs and this year he had no back problems.

[a700hitter]

Tito noted players that he had been able to get through to in the past but who he was struggling with presently. To me that potentially signals guys like Beckett, Lester, youkilis, Ortiz, Tek, and probably Wakefield ad included in the group of potential culprits. You could be absolutely right about Lackey, but he specifically indicated guys who had been around and reachable before.

 

The question for me is how they can set up the team so guys like Ellsbury and pedroia can take over as leaders. Does that require moving some of the old guard out? Team dynamics and on field production might not be the sane thing here.

They are not going to back up the truck and clear out the clubhouse. While clubhouse issues may have made things more difficult for Tito, I'm not going to divert the attention away from the real issue-- that this team was not good enough. The pitching is thin and lacks depth. Maybe they clear out 1 or 2 culprits. Hopefully, one of them is Lackey. Another may have been Wake who still has an ego even though his tank is empty. We're just guessing about the rest of them.

[iortiz]

Youk works like a mad man' date=' but the guy is too thick. As he is getting up in age, he will need to trim some weight off his frame to help his durability. Aceves lost about 30 lbs and this year he had no back problems.[/quote']

 

He better leave for a while the lite beers

 

Aceves looks very strong. Seems like he has a bionic arm. Hell, Tito used him almost daily, and always seemed fresh.

[Cairns_Sox]

The question for me is how they can set up the team so guys like Ellsbury and pedroia can take over as leaders. Does that require moving some of the old guard out? Team dynamics and on field production might not be the sane thing here.

 

I think it does require it. Especially if the rumors about Youk and Jacoby are true. To change the culture requires new leadership and new faces. In my opinion it's veteran guys like Youk, Beckett etc are the guys that have shaped this culture. Maybe because they are comfortable who really knows. For me it's time for Pedy and Ellsbury to be leaders.

[SCM33]

Guys, in reality, its not going to take the Hardy Boys to figure out exactly what went wrong here. Its pretty simple.

 

David Ortiz

John Lackey

Kevin Youkilis

Tim Wakefield

Josh Beckett

 

Thats the list of players who are current members, or could be members of next years club. The good thing is that Wakefield and Ortiz are possibly coming off the books.

 

That leaves:

Lackey

Youkilis

Beckett

 

Lackey will NOT be a member of this team come next year. Youkilis may be a member, as a DH/corner infielder. They will explore trade options for Youkilis for all the reasons already mentioned in this thread.

 

Beckett will be a member of this team, and his attitude/demeanor will be a product of the supporting cast around him.

 

Next year we could see a team that ONLY consists a combination of Beckett, Youkilis/Ortiz.

 

Cut the fat, cut the cancer and lets move on. I keep saying, blow it up......new blood, new players, new voices.

 

Changes need to be made.

[BOSOX11]

With very few exceptions, this team, as a whole, didn't have a "killer instinct."

[iortiz]

Guys' date=' in reality, its not going to take the Hardy Boys to figure out exactly what went wrong here. Its pretty simple.

 

David Ortiz

John Lackey

Kevin Youkilis

Tim Wakefield

Josh Beckett

 

Thats the list of players who are current members, or could be members of next years club. The good thing is that Wakefield and Ortiz are possibly coming off the books.

 

That leaves:

Lackey

Youkilis

Beckett

 

Lackey will NOT be a member of this team come next year. Youkilis may be a member, as a DH/corner infielder. They will explore trade options for Youkilis for all the reasons already mentioned in this thread.

 

Beckett will be a member of this team, and his attitude/demeanor will be a product of the supporting cast around him.

 

Next year we could see a team that ONLY consists a combination of Beckett, Youkilis/Ortiz.

 

Cut the fat, cut the cancer and lets move on. I keep saying, blow it up......new blood, new players, new voices.

 

Changes need to be made.

 

Agree...

 

And please, build our pitching depth and BP and bring at least a SP. All healthy and in shape.

[jung]

I don't think Ortiz was a central figure in this mess as much as he bent with the breeze, like Wake did. You could have knocked me over with a feather when Wake said that "the fans deserved to see him come back in 2012 to break the all time Sox win record". What an asinine thing to say especially when he said it. But I just think guys like Wake and Ortiz saw all these guys that clearly were not team players just grabin' for the Henry bucks that Theo and Henry were giving away hand over fist and they decided "screw it", if John Henry has got a printing press back there somewhere they were going to grab for some dough-ray-me as well. Baseball sort of went out the window. How else do you explain two guys that seemed pretty much like stand up guys their whole careers getting caught up in this me-me-me stuff? Where are my rbi's where is my 2012 money....mine, mine, mine.

 

In fact I think we have a new currency around here. We have the US $, the British Pound, Euros and Henry's. Henry's aren't very highly valued though. Based on how Theo and John throw them around the exchange rate is about 1.75 Henry's for every US $. At that exchange rate, Lackey's and Crawford's contracts are just about right.

 

Ever seen a Henry. It is a Fenway Reserve Note, printed right at the park. Where you would expect a portrait of one of our past presidents, there is a portrait of JH under the country of its origin "The Inane States of Excess".

 

On the back left side, Theo mooning us replaces the Great Seal Eye of Providence atop the unfinished pyramid on the US $, and the inscription reads what you would expect it to read, "KISS MY ASS". On the back right side, where the Great Seal Eagle of the US graces the $ there is winged Larry with a Red Sox shield over his chest. A few helpless fans are scrunched between the talons of his left claw and a few beat writers, Dan Schaughnessey and a hot dog vendor are held between the talons of his right claw. The pennant in his beak is inscribed with "There is a bridge in Brooklyn I would like to interest you in".

[example1]

They are not going to back up the truck and clear out the clubhouse. While clubhouse issues may have made things more difficult for Tito' date=' I'm not going to divert the attention away from the [b']real issue[/b]-- that this team was not good enough. The pitching is thin and lacks depth. Maybe they clear out 1 or 2 culprits. Hopefully, one of them is Lackey. Another may have been Wake who still has an ego even though his tank is empty. We're just guessing about the rest of them.

 

Your real issue. Not necessarily "the" real issue.

 

By every measure available prior to and during the season--by every indication that people use to measure these things--this team was good enough. People agreed, the numbers agreed, the previous performance agreed. I don't see any reason to make it more complicated than it has to be.

 

We could say either:

 

(a) all of the pundits, computers and experts were wrong (in which case a massive reexamination of the methods used to determine these things is necessary), or

 

( there was something unique and particular about the Sox clubhouse and this version of this team. The thing most people are focusing on is a unique combination of s***** clubhouse issues, a high douchebag quotient, and an epic fail of key players during a key stretch.

 

(A) requires a reexamination of what people know about baseball, even though the same analysis was right about teams like the Phillies, Yankees, Rangers, Rays, and Brewers.

 

(A) even correctly predicted the Sox stellar record of over 40 games over .500 for a good portion of the season.

 

(B ) requires only finding people who identify the dynamics in the clubhosue as a detremental factor and looking for some outlier performances by players who should have done better, based on the predictions of (A).

 

So far, there have been players, reporters, and a deposed manager who are identifying clubhouse factors as a key contributer to a historic (see: not typical) collapse. Furthermore, we can pinpoint specific performances by otherwise good players that sank the team.

 

Josh Beckett had 193 IP and faced the 4th most batters in his career. Hardly an enormous workload by his standards. Furthermore, he had the best season in his career (1.02 WHIP) but was unable to win any of the key games that would have made the difference. In September he had a 5.48 ERA and a 1.348 WHIP.

 

Jon Lester had the fewest IP and fewest batters faced since he was a full-time pitcher. Yet he looked exhausted down the stretch and was ineffective (5.4ERA and 1.611 WHIP in September) when it mattered.

 

"Not good enough" is when you don't have a Beckett or Lester to pitch key games that can put you over the top, or when you don't have the offense that scored the most runs in baseball or a bullpen whose ERA was better than 3 other AL playoff teams and two NL playoff teams.

 

The achilles heel for this team was starting pitching, down the stretch. They missed their #3 and #5 starters, and their #1 and #2 were good enough, they just didn't come though when it mattered. I bet they would be the first ones to acknowledge this.

[Gringo]

I don't think Ortiz was a central figure in this mess as much as he bent with the breeze, like Wake did. You could have knocked me over with a feather when Wake said that "the fans deserved to see him come back in 2012 to break the all time Sox win record". What an asinine thing to say especially when he said it. But I just think guys like Wake and Ortiz saw all these guys that clearly were not team players just grabin' for the Henry bucks that Theo and Henry were giving away hand over fist and they decided "screw it", if John Henry has got a printing press back there somewhere they were going to grab for some dough-ray-me as well. Baseball sort of went out the window. How else do you explain two guys that seemed pretty much like stand up guys their whole careers getting caught up in this me-me-me stuff? Where are my rbi's where is my 2012 money....mine, mine, mine.

 

In fact I think we have a new currency around here. We have the US $, the British Pound, Euros and Henry's. Henry's aren't very highly valued though. Based on how Theo and John throw them around the exchange rate is about 1.75 Henry's for every US $. At that exchange rate, Lackey's and Crawford's contracts are just about right.

 

Ever seen a Henry. It is a Fenway Reserve Note, printed right at the park. Where you would expect a portrait of one of our past presidents, there is a portrait of JH under the country of its origin "The Inane States of Excess".

 

On the back left side, Theo mooning us replaces the Great Seal Eye of Providence atop the unfinished pyramid on the US $, and the inscription reads what you would expect it to read, "KISS MY ASS". On the back right side, where the Great Seal Eagle of the US graces the $ there is winged Larry with a Red Sox shield over his chest. A few helpless fans are scrunched between the talons of his left claw and a few beat writers, Dan Schaughnessey and a hot dog vendor are held between the talons of his right claw. The pennant in his beak is inscribed with "There is a bridge in Brooklyn I would like to interest you in".

 

Is that what they stole in "The Town"?

[DwightFright]

Your real issue. Not necessarily "the" real issue.

 

By every measure available prior to and during the season--by every indication that people use to measure these things--this team was good enough. People agreed, the numbers agreed, the previous performance agreed. I don't see any reason to make it more complicated than it has to be.

 

We could say either:

 

(a) all of the pundits, computers and experts were wrong (in which case a massive reexamination of the methods used to determine these things is necessary), or

 

( there was something unique and particular about the Sox clubhouse and this version of this team. The thing most people are focusing on is a unique combination of s***** clubhouse issues, a high douchebag quotient, and an epic fail of key players during a key stretch.

 

(A) requires a reexamination of what people know about baseball, even though the same analysis was right about teams like the Phillies, Yankees, Rangers, Rays, and Brewers.

 

(A) even correctly predicted the Sox stellar record of over 40 games over .500 for a good portion of the season.

 

(B ) requires only finding people who identify the dynamics in the clubhosue as a detremental factor and looking for some outlier performances by players who should have done better, based on the predictions of (A).

 

So far, there have been players, reporters, and a deposed manager who are identifying clubhouse factors as a key contributer to a historic (see: not typical) collapse. Furthermore, we can pinpoint specific performances by otherwise good players that sank the team.

 

Josh Beckett had 193 IP and faced the 4th most batters in his career. Hardly an enormous workload by his standards. Furthermore, he had the best season in his career (1.02 WHIP) but was unable to win any of the key games that would have made the difference. In September he had a 5.48 ERA and a 1.348 WHIP.

 

Jon Lester had the fewest IP and fewest batters faced since he was a full-time pitcher. Yet he looked exhausted down the stretch and was ineffective (5.4ERA and 1.611 WHIP in September) when it mattered.

 

"Not good enough" is when you don't have a Beckett or Lester to pitch key games that can put you over the top, or when you don't have the offense that scored the most runs in baseball or a bullpen whose ERA was better than 3 other AL playoff teams and two NL playoff teams.

 

The achilles heel for this team was starting pitching, down the stretch. They missed their #3 and #5 starters, and their #1 and #2 were good enough, they just didn't come though when it mattered. I bet they would be the first ones to acknowledge this.

 

If the Sox did manage to crawl into the postseason, very few pundits gave them much of a chance to advance because their starting pitching was consider to be not good enough to survive postseason opponents. It's funny to read you define 'good enough' as a separate entity from failure to 'come through when it mattered.' As a fan, I consider them one and the same unless injury is involved - which case they are considered ' good enough when healthy.'

[example1]

If the Sox did manage to crawl into the postseason' date=' very few pundits gave them much of a chance to advance because their starting pitching was consider to be [i']not good enough [/i]to survive postseason opponents. It's funny to read you define 'good enough' as a separate entity from failure to 'come through when it mattered.' As a fan, I consider them one and the same unless injury is involved - which case they are considered ' good enough when healthy.'

 

If Albert Pujols goes 3-21 in a 5 game series, does that mean he wasn't "good enough" to help his team win? If Roy Halladay loses a game in a 5 game series and his team loses the series, does that mean he wasn't "good enough" to help them win, or just that his performance during that stretch wasn't good enough. We're talking about team construction here, not performance over a short period. Any team with Pujols or Halladay would be right to say that the cleanup spot or the #1 rotation spot were sufficient (good enough) to get them a win, but for whatever reason it didn't work out.

 

I contend it is the same with the Sox #1 and #2 down the stretch. Neither was overloaded from the season. They both just choked when it mattered.

 

They weren't good enough down the stretch. Does that mean they weren't good enough pitchers to accomplish the task before them? No. Nobody thinks Lester and Beckett were too bad to bring this team to the playoffs.

 

Frankly, if Lester and Beckett were pitching like they can this team could have made a run in the playoffs. They had the best offense in baseball.

[a700hitter]

Your real issue. Not necessarily "the" real issue.

 

By every measure available prior to and during the season--by every indication that people use to measure these things--this team was good enough. People agreed, the numbers agreed, the previous performance agreed. I don't see any reason to make it more complicated than it has to be.

 

We could say either:

 

(a) all of the pundits, computers and experts were wrong (in which case a massive reexamination of the methods used to determine these things is necessary), or

 

( there was something unique and particular about the Sox clubhouse and this version of this team. The thing most people are focusing on is a unique combination of s***** clubhouse issues, a high douchebag quotient, and an epic fail of key players during a key stretch.

 

(A) requires a reexamination of what people know about baseball, even though the same analysis was right about teams like the Phillies, Yankees, Rangers, Rays, and Brewers.

 

(A) even correctly predicted the Sox stellar record of over 40 games over .500 for a good portion of the season.

 

(B ) requires only finding people who identify the dynamics in the clubhosue as a detremental factor and looking for some outlier performances by players who should have done better, based on the predictions of (A).

 

So far, there have been players, reporters, and a deposed manager who are identifying clubhouse factors as a key contributer to a historic (see: not typical) collapse. Furthermore, we can pinpoint specific performances by otherwise good players that sank the team.

 

Josh Beckett had 193 IP and faced the 4th most batters in his career. Hardly an enormous workload by his standards. Furthermore, he had the best season in his career (1.02 WHIP) but was unable to win any of the key games that would have made the difference. In September he had a 5.48 ERA and a 1.348 WHIP.

 

Jon Lester had the fewest IP and fewest batters faced since he was a full-time pitcher. Yet he looked exhausted down the stretch and was ineffective (5.4ERA and 1.611 WHIP in September) when it mattered.

 

"Not good enough" is when you don't have a Beckett or Lester to pitch key games that can put you over the top, or when you don't have the offense that scored the most runs in baseball or a bullpen whose ERA was better than 3 other AL playoff teams and two NL playoff teams.

 

The achilles heel for this team was starting pitching, down the stretch. They missed their #3 and #5 starters, and their #1 and #2 were good enough, they just didn't come though when it mattered. I bet they would be the first ones to acknowledge this.

Players that don't work hard enough to stay in shape are not good players. Yaz always said that as he came up, he saw lots of guys with more physical talent than him, but they never made it. The reason was that they didn't work as hard as him, and after he hit 30 he stepped up his conditioning to a manic level. The players that didn't work hard weren't good players. They didn't have good careers. They weren't good enough, but they just needed some conditioning and hard work. Good players work hard and the results take care of themselves.

 

You are looking for the bogeyman. Sports is actually one business where it is easy to differentiate the good teams from the bad teams and the good players from the bad players. The wins and loses and the stats tell the story. The 2011 Red Sox won 90 games. They were simply not good enough. It doesn't matter what the pundits and the computer models showed. They predict outcomes, but the outcomes either confirm the models and projections or prove them wrong. This time all the projections were wrong. Honestly, you'd be pummeled down here in NY as whiner. You are making all these excuses, when the fact is that over the long haul of 162 games the Sox were just not good enough. Again, you are in denial, looking for anyone or any bogeyman to blame, rather than to admit that the team wasn't good enough, because your boy was responsible for putting together the team. You say blame the players. I say, yes blame the players. They lost it. They weren't good enough. It still comes back to who put together the team full of players that weren't good enough. What are you trying to establish, that the players were good enough, but didn't try hard enough so you can exonerate Theo. Seriously, I think you are going to cry if Theo goes to the Cubs. If they let him walk, it will be because Theo is just not good enough to keep.

[example1]

Players that don't work hard enough to stay in shape are not good players. Yaz always said that as he came up, he saw lots of guys with more physical talent than him, but they never made it. The reason was that they didn't work as hard as him, and after he hit 30 he stepped up his conditioning to a manic level. The players that didn't work hard weren't good players. They didn't have good careers. They weren't good enough, but they just needed some conditioning and hard work. Good players work hard and the results take care of themselves.

 

You are looking for the bogeyman. Sports is actually one business where it is easy to differentiate the good teams from the bad teams and the good players from the bad players. The wins and loses and the stats tell the story. The 2011 Red Sox won 90 games. They were simply not good enough. It doesn't matter what the pundits and the computer models showed. They predict outcomes, but the outcomes either confirm the models and projections or prove them wrong. This time all the projections were wrong. Honestly, you'd be pummeled down here in NY as whiner. You are making all these excuses, when the fact is that over the long haul of 162 games the Sox were just not good enough. Again, you are in denial, looking for anyone or any bogeyman to blame, rather than to admit that the team wasn't good enough, because your boy was responsible for putting together the team. You say blame the players. I say, yes blame the players. They lost it. They weren't good enough. It still comes back to who put together the team full of players that weren't good enough. What are you trying to establish, that the players were good enough, but didn't try hard enough so you can exonerate Theo. Seriously, I think you are going to cry if Theo goes to the Cubs. If they let him walk, it will be because Theo is just not good enough to keep.

 

You and I will never agree. I have written, erased, and re-written post after post in response to this, but most of them are a lot meaner than I actually want to be. I don't want to get into a pissing match with you. We've done it dozens of times and it simply isn't worth it right now.

 

I resent your constant claims that somehow I will be personally hurt if the Sox let Theo go. As if he and I are lovers or something. I won't be hurt. You will find me here, posting as I always have, supporting my team and a lot of the same players who you are currently calling not good enough. I will continue watching and rooting for my team.

 

The main difference between the two of us is that I think this team is much closer to winning than you do. We will see how that plays itself out. I think the best person to help the team move forward is Theo Epstein, you don't. We can agree to disagree, that's fine. If they hire someone else to do it I will immediately become a fan of theirs and try to understand how they see the game and think about team construction. That's just how I roll.

[jung]

I am not really seeing many guys being forwarded to take the job that would be better than Theo. I think that is the problem that I see. The more it seems that the Sox are going to let Theo talk to the Cubs the more I think his leaving regardless of the conditions becomes more likely but I still don't see guys being forwarded that make me think "immediate upgrade".

 

I do think that if Theo stays, their player personnel effort will be refocused on the farm system as it was when Theo first got the job and I think that upper management will change the perspective on FA signings. That means that Theo AND the rest of them above Theo have some work to do in that regard. The entire organization has grown to enamored with these high profile FA signings I think because they are big PR news that tend to put fannies in seats and because they have been sucked into the idea that they are always one big signing away from guaranteeing a spot at least in the ALCS, another fantasy. However even the fannies in those seats are beginning to see the hole you can dig for yourself doing this year after year and even multiple times per year. I also think they will demand of Theo if not themselves more emphasis on scouting in parallel with their much touted player evaluation matrices. If they can realign themselves with a different set of expectations and goals, Theo may still be the right guy for that job.

 

I am of the mind that the guys above Theo are at least as responsible for having empowered him and even more so for having encouraged this direction and perspective on their player personnel activities.

 

Also I do not want to see Theo sent packing because Tito was sent packing. Tito may well have been victimized by this whole thing but that does not change the fact that there were not many ways that you could envision Tito being run back into that clubhouse to manage essentially the same group of players. Sure I am betting some of the issues will be resolved via trade and release but ya' can't change all 25 of them nor even half of them.

 

That said, one scapegoat may be all they can afford for this year.

[jacksonianmarch]

If Theo walks, I think they stay internal. Cherington would probably take the job for a yr or two, and if he strikes gold, he'll sign on long term. If not, then they will go outside the org

[SoxSport]

all the ones that are overweight and out of shape.

[a700hitter]

You and I will never agree. I have written, erased, and re-written post after post in response to this, but most of them are a lot meaner than I actually want to be. I don't want to get into a pissing match with you. We've done it dozens of times and it simply isn't worth it right now.

 

I resent your constant claims that somehow I will be personally hurt if the Sox let Theo go. As if he and I are lovers or something. I won't be hurt. You will find me here, posting as I always have, supporting my team and a lot of the same players who you are currently calling not good enough. I will continue watching and rooting for my team.

 

The main difference between the two of us is that I think this team is much closer to winning than you do. We will see how that plays itself out. I think the best person to help the team move forward is Theo Epstein, you don't. We can agree to disagree, that's fine. If they hire someone else to do it I will immediately become a fan of theirs and try to understand how they see the game and think about team construction. That's just how I roll.

You take extraordinary efforts to exonerate Theo from blame. I don't think the team needs to be blown up, and I agree with you that they are close to being winners, but Theo's record doesn't warrant another chance, and I think that a new GM can step in and make the choices that will make this team a winner in 2012. Theo is not indispensable. He has made a bit of a mess, and someone else can clean it up.

[iortiz]

You take extraordinary efforts to exonerate Theo from blame. I don't think the team needs to be blown up' date=' and I agree with you that they are close to being winners, but Theo's record doesn't warrant another chance, and I think that a new GM can step in and make the choices that will make this team a winner in 2012. Theo is not indispensable. He has made a bit of a mess, and someone else can clean it up.[/quote']

 

If the owners are letting Theo go and talk with the Cubs, they would be agreeing with us and the polls. The message would be pretty clear to me: 'You put this organization in this mess and there's no way in hell where we can give you other 100 MUSD to blow it up again' 'thank you very much for the WSs but a cycle has ended and this team needs to move on and persuit fresh blood and ideas in order to make us better than we have been lately (3 years), no hard-feelings, this is business.'

[Go Sawks]

The drunks aka

 

Lester

 

Beckett, Lackey

 

Wakefield...

 

& the impressionable Buckholz

 

What'd you know?! Our starting pitching staff!

[Emmz]

If the owners are letting Theo go and talk with the Cubs' date=' they would be agreeing with us and the polls. The message would be pretty clear to me: 'You put this organization in this mess and there's no way in hell where we can give you other 100 MUSD to blow it up again' 'thank you very much for the WSs but a cycle has ended and this team needs to move on and persuit fresh blood and ideas in order to make us better than we have been lately (3 years), no hard-feelings, this is business.'[/quote']

 

I'll laugh at this when he rebuilds the Cubs and gets them their first WS ring in over 100 years. Theo can only construct the roster, he can't get the players to perform. There's a certain level of accountability for signing these guys, but this team was the best team for most of the year, and essentially pissed it away in 30 days, where the pitching staff shat the bed. Theo has put together 2 championship teams, and 1 team that should have easily won in 2008. This 2011 team was just as powerful as any of those teams, moreso offensively, and the pitching staff at 100% on paper, was very solid. No one expected Lackey to s*** the bed this year, or for Buch and Dice-K to go down, forcing Wake and Weiland/Miller to pitch. No one expected Lester and Beckett to s*** the bed for an entire month either.

 

This team had all the tools to win the WS this year, the players were the ones who didn't come through. Crawford will now continue to hit for .600 OPS, in fact I think it's very likely he returns to .800+ OPS. I highly doubt Lackey continues to fight Burnett for worst starting pitching in baseball. He was solid in 2010, I think he can be at that form next year if he doesn't get traded. All there is to do is add a pitcher to replace Dice-K, and IMO, this team is as well-rounded as the Phillies. I'm not counting on Lackey to come through at all, but I believe he is capable of returning to at least 2010 form, which is a very solid middle of the rotation pitcher.

[Emmz]

You and I will never agree. I have written, erased, and re-written post after post in response to this, but most of them are a lot meaner than I actually want to be. I don't want to get into a pissing match with you. We've done it dozens of times and it simply isn't worth it right now.

 

I resent your constant claims that somehow I will be personally hurt if the Sox let Theo go. As if he and I are lovers or something. I won't be hurt. You will find me here, posting as I always have, supporting my team and a lot of the same players who you are currently calling not good enough. I will continue watching and rooting for my team.

 

The main difference between the two of us is that I think this team is much closer to winning than you do. We will see how that plays itself out. I think the best person to help the team move forward is Theo Epstein, you don't. We can agree to disagree, that's fine. If they hire someone else to do it I will immediately become a fan of theirs and try to understand how they see the game and think about team construction. That's just how I roll.

 

I'm 100% with you on everything so far. I am very optimistic about the future, and I don't think making trades and crap is necessary. I think this team has all the right tools to win the World Series, but it needs to be done right, there can't be any more of these bed shittings from our top players for entire months/seasons.