Which players ended up costing Francona his job?

[dominicanredsox]

This team needs to make tough decisions this offseason youk or ortiz one of these two has to go why frankly i would like to see both come back next year but think about this ....lets say we kept beltre last year let go of ortiz and let youk dh make sense to you guys?

 

 

FO should of kept vmart defensively him and vtek are basically the same but vmart has the better bat of the two

 

wake should of been a inning eater off the bullpen he put himself before the team this year which kind of shocked me

 

i cant blame the players i blame theo for the players he has brung in and put together in recent years

[Emmz]

I don't blame Crawford at all for this stuff. Yes, he should have produced more, but perhaps he didn't because he showed up to this clubhouse zoo and said to himself, "WTF am I doing here? Nobody told me these guys were so f***ed up!" add that to his newness and huge contract and I can see that doing a number on a new guy who cares.

Lackey just doesn't care, period. He was described as a "bulldog" - let's change that to "bully". Consider how much of a jerk he was in front of 37,000 people - imagine what an ******* he was behind closed doors. I think he was the most poisonous of all and he needs to go.

Youkalis is a jerk as well - a real hot head. Remember his comments about Ellsbury last year? From the looks of it, Jacoby paid I bit more attention to his body than Youk did. Now, Youk is broken down. Ells contributed far more in 2 of his 3 years than Youk ever did.I heard that Youk continued to rag on Jacoby this season.

Management really blew this - they should have exercised Tito's option mid season and told the players that "THIS is your boss for as long as you are here - toe the line or you are gone." Now they have the psychos running the asylum.

 

Let's get one thing straight. Ellsbury's breakout season is Youk's norm at the plate, he has had one season where he was more productive than Youk, and it's pretty tough to say otherwise. Youk struggled this year, and still had a 123 OPS+. Before this season, Ells never even got up to 100 OPS+. Youk is the real deal, established, and after one season we're all talking about how he's done and what not. Ells had been successful for one season only. I think he's got the skills to continue being successful, but don't confuse things here, he has never come close to Youk's production.

[Palodios]

This team needs to make tough decisions this offseason youk or ortiz one of these two has to go why frankly i would like to see both come back next year but think about this ....lets say we kept beltre last year let go of ortiz and let youk dh make sense to you guys?

 

 

FO should of kept vmart defensively him and vtek are basically the same but vmart has the better bat of the two

 

wake should of been a inning eater off the bullpen he put himself before the team this year which kind of shocked me

 

i cant blame the players i blame theo for the players he has brung in and put together in recent years

 

VMart had a great season, but he's no catcher.

[example1]

Let's get one thing straight. Ellsbury's breakout season is Youk's norm at the plate' date=' he has had one season where he was more productive than Youk, and it's pretty tough to say otherwise. Youk struggled this year, and still had a 123 OPS+. Before this season, Ells never even got up to 100 OPS+. Youk is the real deal, established, and after one season we're all talking about how he's done and what not. Ells had been successful for one season only. I think he's got the skills to continue being successful, but don't confuse things here, he has never come close to Youk's production.[/quote']

 

Fangraphs WAR:

 

2011-Ellsbury 9.4 (highest in all of baseball, both leagues, including pitchers)

(fielding 15.6, baserunning 1.2)

 

Youk's seasonal histories:

2006-2.6

2007-3.9

2008-5.9

2009-5.9

2010-4.1

2011-3.7

 

Youk is a great player, really consistent and offensively he's better than Ellsbury has been. But as far as production goes (using your 27 outs offensively and taking away outs for the other team defensively) Ellsbury's season this year was considerably better than any that Youk has put up.

[fendog]

Let's get one thing straight. Ellsbury's breakout season is Youk's norm at the plate' date=' he has had one season where he was more productive than Youk, and it's pretty tough to say otherwise. Youk struggled this year, and still had a 123 OPS+. Before this season, Ells never even got up to 100 OPS+. Youk is the real deal, established, and after one season we're all talking about how he's done and what not. Ells had been successful for one season only. I think he's got the skills to continue being successful, but don't confuse things here, he has never come close to Youk's production.[/quote']

 

OK, I can buy your argument about Youk's past performance, but I was more focused on Youk's negative contribution to the clubhouse and how he treated Ellsbury. Additionally, Youk has NOT kept himself in good shape which may explain his medical issues. Youk seems to be a player of diminishing returns and negative influence.

 

One additional Crawford point: besides coming into a dysfunctional clubhouse, he left one of the most cohesive clubhouses in baseball with Joe Madden setting the imperative of being a "team". He probably thought he was coming into one happy family with Tito at the helm, but it sounds like this has been far from a reality, and, instead, he walks into a friggin' selfish soap opera.

[He Hate Me]

OK, I can buy your argument about Youk's past performance, but I was more focused on Youk's negative contribution to the clubhouse and how he treated Ellsbury. Additionally, Youk has NOT kept himself in good shape which may explain his medical issues. Youk seems to be a player of diminishing returns and negative influence.

 

One additional Crawford point: besides coming into a dysfunctional clubhouse, he left one of the most cohesive clubhouses in baseball with Joe Madden setting the imperative of being a "team". He probably thought he was coming into one happy family with Tito at the helm, but it sounds like this has been far from a reality, and, instead, he walks into a friggin' selfish soap opera.

 

Thats actually not a bad point about Crawford. Certainly puts his response to ask Tek in a new light, for me anyway.

[ursa99]

I don't think Youkilis belongs in that group.

 

Youkilis is almost as important to the team as Pedroia.

 

Last year's collapse was coincident with Youks and then Pedroia getting hurt.

 

This year, the September collapse coincided with Youkilis being injured again.

 

Youks and Pedey are the heart and spirit of this team--whatever is left of it.

 

Youks has a sports hernia right now, and you wonder if the move to 3B was too much for him.

And with AdGon's shoulder bothering him, you have to start 2nd guessing the deal Epstein made

for AdGon. His 2nd half stats dropped dramatically, 10 HRs, OPS .893.

 

Incredibly, those two much bally-hooed preseason pickups, AdGon and Crawford, seem to have backfired on them.

Messed up their chemistry.

 

Maybe Youkilis does belong in that group. From Jackie McMullin:

 

Kevin Youkilis has always been a hot button. On occasion, his intensity and his honesty were his biggest assets, but not this season. The injured Youkilis showed up every day the way he wanted Ellsbury to, but he turned so sour and cynical that his carping and insistence on inserting himself into other people's affairs turned him into a detriment.

[example1]

Maybe Youkilis does belong in that group. From Jackie McMullin:

 

Kevin Youkilis has always been a hot button. On occasion, his intensity and his honesty were his biggest assets, but not this season. The injured Youkilis showed up every day the way he wanted Ellsbury to, but he turned so sour and cynical that his carping and insistence on inserting himself into other people's affairs turned him into a detriment.

 

I'm hopeful that the whole Youkilis turning sour thing was more a symptom of the problem than the problem itself. He seems like a good clubhouse guy, at least in terms of effort, passion and production. Perhpas he was frustrated with the culture too and expresses it poorly.

[Scottish Red Sox Fan]

Losing a man who has led the Red Sox to 2 World Series wins is a bad move. Tito was the best manager the Red Sox have had in a loooooooooooooooooonnnnnnnnnggggggg time and he will be a hard act to follow.

 

If you had said to a Red Sox fan in 2003 'I know a man that could manage the Red Sox and win the World Series. TWICE.' The Red Sox fan would likely not have believed you. Winning 1 World Series seemed an impossibility back then - never mind two.

 

I have been on and off this forum intermittently during the season and some of the things that have been said about Terry Francona have irritated me. Some people are just ungrateful I guess.

 

Before Terry Francona, the Red Sox were a cursed team. Doomed to fail again and again. Forever to be cursed by fate and to suffer painful defeat after painful defeat at the hands of the Yankees. Francona snapped the curse and beat the Yankees. He put the Red Sox back on top. I will never forget that and will always be grateful to him.

 

Thank you for everything Tito. Take a bow, you are a Red Sox legend.

[Palodios]

I'm hopeful that the whole Youkilis turning sour thing was more a symptom of the problem than the problem itself. He seems like a good clubhouse guy' date=' at least in terms of effort, passion and production. Perhpas he was frustrated with the culture too and expresses it poorly.[/quote']

 

I don't think we can just absolve the players we happen to like. It seems like some of the more popular players-- Youkilis, Beckett, Ortiz and possibly Varitek-- are the ones that we have any sort of evidence were problems.

[example1]

I don't think we can just absolve the players we happen to like. It seems like some of the more popular players-- Youkilis' date=' Beckett, Ortiz and possibly Varitek-- are the ones that we have any sort of evidence were problems.[/quote']

 

Yep, I've noted Youkilis a few times as one who is probably responsible. I've also noted that he should be on the block because he might still have good value moving forward.

 

At the same time, I'm not convinced he's the cancer in the clubhouse. I suspect there's a group of guys on the fence, between being good leaders and bad role models. At least I can HOPE...

 

If guys like Beckett and Youkilis are clubhouse cancers beyond repair then this team is in a LOT of trouble.

[soxfan74]

I am kind of on the ropes with Youkilis myself. I agree he should most definitely be on the trading block at this point. His body is breaking down. Not a surprise with the way he plays the game.

 

 

Of Course we all know about Lackey. Get this guy out by any means necessary. If we have to eat half the contract. Fine.

 

 

The guy that pisses me off the most is Ortiz. Between the whining about one Rbi garbage and the Aceves comment. What a cry baby. After all the Framcona did for that guy. Sticking up fpr him with Steroid reports. Sticking with him during his slow starts. Let him walk.

 

 

Let all these free agents walk. It's time for some changes. We need some fresh blood. Young blood preferably.

[jung]

If guys like Beckett and Youkilis are clubhouse cancers beyond repair then this team is in a LOT of trouble.

 

I would reserve judgement on Beckett. If he was one of the guys lounging in the clubhouse and tossing back some cold ones during actual games in progress boy that is going to be hard to get by but I did not see his name mentioned specifically in that regard. Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

Youk may have really put himself in a tough spot based on how that whole critic thing was reported because he bashed Ells for leaving to rehab in Arizona, remember...really let him have it. Then Ells comes back healthy and having an MVP year. So what does Youk do? He sticks around through his injury which is what he wanted Ells to do but instead of just rehabing and trying to be a positive influence via his presence he anointed himself Mr. pain in the ass critic and really got under some players skins. Yes players want you to stay and be a positive influence if you can. On the other hand just about the worst thing a baseball player can do is be standing around in civies, yapping at his teammates in uniform. The only thing going on in the teammate's head is "shut the F up and get back in the game before you start yappin' at me. I suspect his teammates will forgive him unless he really crossed some lines and unfortunately the way it was reported would lead you to believe he had. Maybe a heartfelt apology might go a long way but Youk has never looked that type to me.

 

I would like to see more on the Youk situation before making a judgement there. Like I said above unfortunately it sounds believable given the guy's demeanor.

[SoxSport]

Maybe Youkilis does belong in that group. From Jackie McMullin:

 

Kevin Youkilis has always been a hot button. On occasion, his intensity and his honesty were his biggest assets, but not this season. The injured Youkilis showed up every day the way he wanted Ellsbury to, but he turned so sour and cynical that his carping and insistence on inserting himself into other people's affairs turned him into a detriment.

 

I don't know what this media bitching about Youkilis is all about. The guy was asked to changed positions a few years ago--became an all-star at 1B--the asked to go back to 3B. At some point in the 2nd half, he broke down with a sports hernia--probably playing with it. Anybody out there ever had a sports hernia? I have, and I can't see playing 3B with one.And he had a slow start coming back from that thumb injury last year.

 

Youks and Pedroia are the two indispensible position guys on the Red Sox. The Sox broke down last year late when both went down, and they broke down again in September this year when Youks went down. The middle of the lineup almost disappeared in September with Youks and AdGon subpar.

[jung]

I actually don't think it is a media thing in Youk's case. If you look at just the quote from McMullin, she could not have written that without input from a player or players. Whether they overreacted or not, who knows but as I said earlier, guys standing around in civies barking at guys in uniform will drive the guys in uniform right up the wall and that it not staying around with injury and being a positive influence. So, I can see it playing badly if it happened as it was reported (emphasis on the if).

 

At any rate, the fact that these guys might not be around each other for a few months now might actually be a very good thing.

[Spitball]

I'm hopeful that the whole Youkilis turning sour thing was more a symptom of the problem than the problem itself. He seems like a good clubhouse guy' date=' at least in terms of effort, passion and production. Perhpas he was frustrated with the culture too and expresses it poorly.[/quote']

 

I believe this is a real possibility. I remember Carlton Fisk sounded like a disruptive influence in the clubhouse when he was a young player questioning what he was seeing from the veterans in the red Sox locker room. Shortly afterward, we were reading quotes from other teams about, "twenty-five players and twenty-five taxis" references to the Sox' inability to get along. I believe it was an Oriole player who sarcastically refered to them as "Unity University."

 

I was disappointed in Fisk at the time, but time proved he was correct about the Sox of the early 1970s.

[jung]

Very distinct possibility Spitball given everything that was going wrong at the time especially since I think Youk has a pretty short fuse. Sometimes he wears that Youk face that goes past frustration to utter disgust. Geez after this season he might have permanent face creases from the utter disgust mode.

[Spitball]

Very distinct possibility Spitball given everything that was going wrong at the time especially since I think Youk has a pretty short fuse. Sometimes he wears that Youk face that goes past frustration to utter disgust. Geez after this season he might have permanent face creases from the utter disgust mode.

 

You know, Jung, I might have developed the same permanent face creases for similar reasons.

[jung]

You know, Jung, I might have developed the same permanent face creases for similar reasons.

 

Best "I am totally disgusted" look in all of sports:

For me the hands down all time champ is Tommy Heinsohn. I once saw Tommy Heinsohn double T'ed out of a Celtic's game when he was coach for nothing more than a look. Something makes me want to say it was Richie Power's that double T'ed him but I had never seen it before or since and Most and Cousy said they had never seen it before at the time. It was right before the half and the calls were all going the wrong way. Heinsohn brought his hands up to his hips (size portly at the time) and glared out from the baseline. The look on his face not only said that he was totally disgusted but that the ref was the lowest life form on earth and if Tommy had his way he would have stepped on the ref's mother's head before she could have given birth to this jerk but Tommy never ever said a single word during this episode. The ref without any hesitation double T'ed him and Tommy was gone for the game. He quietly walked off but never removed his glare from the Ref in question. Most and Cousy were beside themselves and Cousy was so amused that he just could not contain himself and kept going on about how he had never seen it before either as player or announcer. To this day I cannot remember another guy being double T'ed without raising a hand in violence or saying a single word.

[BornToRun]

Can I just say that who really cares if a player is a prick? I don't care how big of an ******* a player might be as long as he gets it done. So what if Beckett is a jerk and Youk too? They're great players. This September was one clusterf*** of injuries, bad luck, and a few people not stepping up when they had to. This was just everything that could go wrong going wrong. No one would be complaining about Beckett or Youk or anybody else being an ******* if we hadn't fallen apart, it's all kneejerk reaction. Should we be pissed at what happened? f*** yeah we should but let's not get on guys who've been the cogs on this team for years and had it not been for them, we'd have been down and out long before number 162. Youk tried to suck it up and play hurt when this team needed him and although he fell apart down the stretch, do you have any idea how much worse we would be if Beckett didn't step up and anchor the rotation like he did this year? He was a godsend.

[a700hitter]

A700, I realize you don't think that chemistry or mental preparation has much to do with how a team does, but I think that most high level atheletes and experts in the field would say that is often the difference between teams that succeed and those that don't. It is probably too touchy-feely for you to embrace (no pun intended ) but mental preparation and feeling supported by teammates through good and bad is something that coaches/managers and leaders spend a lot of time on.

 

This team lacked leadership, from the FO down to the on-the-field level. Francona help himself accountabile enough to not come back. A number of those players should not be welcomed back. Theo's job is not to come into the clubhouse and do the ra-ra thing, but it is to make sure that the leaders are there when they are needed to be. Clearly that didn't work out this year, so it will need to be addressed moving forwad.

 

It isn't all about effort that you give when you are out there. A leaders mentality about the game rubs off on other players and, over many weeks or months, it can be infectious in a good or bad way.

 

As Edes put it:

 

"Starting pitchers drinking in the clubhouse during games on days when they weren't pitching, which can leave one boozily indifferent to the plight of teammates after they've just lost in extra innings? Originally reported in the Boston Herald, it was not only confirmed here, but with the added twist that it has been going on the past two seasons."

 

This is the kind of nuanced s*** that takes an otherwise good team and makes them average. It's the small stuff that matters.

I agree that mental preparedness is very important, but Ortiz and Youkilis have always been two of the most well-prepared players on the team. I really think you are engaging in scapegoating, and the two guys you are scapegoating have never been problems. To now be accusing them of being clubhouse cancers is really off base. The only problem with Youkilis in all of this is that he was out of the lineup.

[a700hitter]

And if he demands 2 for "all that he's done" for the organization? Would you be okay with them cutting bait and searching for a better alternative?

A similar premium quality bat might cost as much for 1 season as Ortiz would for 2. If that would be the case, would you be okay with giving him 2 years?

[example1]

A similar premium quality bat might cost as much for 1 season as Ortiz would for 2. If that would be the case' date=' would you be okay with giving him 2 years?[/quote']

 

No. Unless he's really cheap I think a one year deal is all I would do.

[a700hitter]

No. Unless he's really cheap I think a one year deal is all I would do.

So, if you could get Ortiz for 2 years $15 million you would pass on that to pay $13-15 million for one year to get another premium bat. I'm not sure that I see the value in that.

[Cairns_Sox]

So' date=' if you could get Ortiz for 2 years $15 million you would pass on that to pay $13-15 million for one year to get another premium bat. I'm not sure that I see the value in that.[/quote']

 

To be fair their aren't alot of premium bats among the FA this year. The first question is was big Papi apart of this clubhouse mess.

[example1]

So' date=' if you could get Ortiz for 2 years $15 million you would pass on that to pay $13-15 million for one year to get another premium bat. I'm not sure that I see the value in that.[/quote']

 

This is obviously assuming a clubhouse-neutral Ortiz (i.e., being confident he hasn't contributed to the clubhouse problems), then yes, I would probably do 2 years/15m.

 

Given that he just finished a season at $12.5m and thinks pretty highly of himself, I'm skeptical that he'll be okay with $7.5 and wasn't even thinking in that ballpark. I suspect he will demand a minimun of $10m, probably more than that.

 

2 years/$15m would be more than reasonable though, I agree. They may still regret it, but the cost wouldn't be prohibitiave.

 

If he's demanding 12.5m a year for two years, I'd rather they push for Carlos Beltran or someone like that. Beltran could switch hit offer protection/time for another RF to develop, run the bases a bit decently, etc.,

[a700hitter]

To be fair and aren't alot of premium bats among the FA this year. The first question is was big Papi apart of this clubhouse mess.

Where are the reports on Ortiz being a problem? I don't think the RBI thing was a real big thing.

[a700hitter]

This is obviously assuming a clubhouse-neutral Ortiz (i.e., being confident he hasn't contributed to the clubhouse problems), then yes, I would probably do 2 years/15m.

 

Given that he just finished a season at $12.5m and thinks pretty highly of himself, I'm skeptical that he'll be okay with $7.5 and wasn't even thinking in that ballpark. I suspect he will demand a minimun of $10m, probably more than that.

 

2 years/$15m would be more than reasonable though, I agree. They may still regret it, but the cost wouldn't be prohibitiave.

 

If he's demanding 12.5m a year for two years, I'd rather they push for Carlos Beltran or someone like that. Beltran could switch hit offer protection/time for another RF to develop, run the bases a bit decently, etc.,

As a pure DH, I don't think he has a leverage. I'm not sure where this "Ortiz as a clubhouse problem" is coming from. The RBI thing was such a big deal.

[Cairns_Sox]

Where are the reports on Ortiz being a problem? I don't think the RBI thing was a real big thing.

 

Really? So interrupting your manager during a press conference to complain about a RBI screams team player to you? Question his manager about Aceves is another thing.

[example1]

As a pure DH' date=' I don't think he has a leverage. I'm not sure where this "Ortiz as a clubhouse problem" is coming from. The RBI thing was such a big deal.[/quote']

 

This is probably something we will disagree on... like so much else.

 

I think it is a pretty big deal. I think it comes out poorly, just like arguing strike 3 when you're up by 7 runs. I just think there's a better way to do it. It's not the one factor I would use, but it doesn't earn him any extra points in my book.

 

Mostly I'm just frustrated that I didn't hear about any leadership from this guy. Of everyone on this team who could have stepped up and held a team meeting or kicked some ass of guys like Beckett or Lackey it would have been Papi. He's older, established and undoubtedly ownership would have had his back.

 

Now, Papi makes clear in a recent interview that he saw that as Tito's job. That's probably true. However, Tito's philosophy was to let the players police themselves. That's how a good manager operates when it is appropriate. A good organization doesn't need management micromanaging s***. Employees manage themselves, allowing the manager to focus on the stuff they should be focusing on. You know this as well as I do.

 

Neither of us know the details, but if he was part of the problem, or could have stepped up more and didn't, then Im fine with them finding someone who will.