Should the Red Sox consider Bard as a starter in 2012?

[jung]

Dice will not likely be back until his contract year. They will have to consider Bard and Aceves since they will not likely be able to trade or pick up all the SP they need. I would think that Aceves would be the guy that moved to the rotation but they would have to consider both and choose one or the other plus bring in at least another arm. If they decide to move Beckett because he has value and they need to make changes then that will be yet another arm that they will need.

 

Timing could be right on Beckett if only because he is likely to have a tough 2012. However there are other guys that will have to go, like Wake. Wake is terrible now but he has always eaten innings.

 

I think they will eat money on Lackey's contract and get him out of here. Starting pitching is so hard to come by that if they do decide to move Lackey and not resign Wake then I think Beckett stays without question and they start out with Buckholtz, Lester, Beckett and Aceves and look for another starter to go with them. Assuming they can find a serviceable fifth starter, at that point if they want to try to go after a big SP signing at least they will not be painted into a corner feeling like they have to empty what is left of the farm system or do something drastic just to have enough SP to start the season.

[BornToRun]

Dude, the offseason hasn't even started yet.

[jopete19]

Didn't we try to move paps to a starter in like 08?

[BornToRun]

I think we almost did it in 2007. Keep Bard where he is.

[jung]

The best recent example of Red Sox that successfully converted from reliever to starter was Lowe. He had started in the minors and had a full off season to make the change. Going through a full off season is the only way to really do it. However of the two of them I still would think Bard should stay in relief and if they try it with anybody it should be Aceves.

 

Plus I happen to think that it is pretty important to keep your 8th inning guy doing that job. Complete games are almost unheard of anymore and even going 8 has become rare. So has going 7 for that matter.

 

Maybe Wake also qualifies as a successful conversion but really Wake is or was an innings eater and the Sox have treated that knuckle ball like it is so other worldly that they could just insert Wake anywhere and over time they have. In fact Wake considers the knuckler so other worldly that in a recent interview he commented that he thought we would never again see knuckle ballers that came up as knuckle ballers. They would all be guys like him, somebody that was an everyday player that could not make it as an everyday player and converted as a way to stay in baseball.

[Dojji]

People are a bit naive if they think that this team would redevelop Bard as a starter in the big leagues.

 

We'd be looking at at least half a year in AAA for Bard as he reaccustomed himself to his starter's repertoire and proved he could be consistent.

[a700hitter]

People are a bit naive if they think that this team would redevelop Bard as a starter in the big leagues.

 

We'd be looking at at least half a year in AAA for Bard as he reaccustomed himself to his starter's repertoire and proved he could be consistent.

It would take him 6 weeks of Spring Training to be more effective than Wakefield or Miller.

[jacksonianmarch]

Bard was a complete mess out of the rotation in the minors. They had to simplify things for him. Currently, he's a relief ace. He isnt a guy who was pushed to relief cause they needed him there, like Paps. He was pushed to relief because he couldnt function out of the rotation. This would be a bad idea.....Wait, I mean an AWESOME idea

[Cairns_Sox]

I think it comes down to Bard. If he is 100% committed to the cause and works his tail off to ensure he becomes an effective starter then yes. He has to be committed to the idea first.

[jacksonianmarch]

Even if he is committed, he shouldnt be made into a starter.

[Cairns_Sox]

Even if he is committed' date=' he shouldnt be made into a starter.[/quote']

 

Why?

[BOSOX11]

I'd use Lackey like they used Wake - an innings-eater in blow-out games.

[Gringo]

How about Lackey as closer

[Dojji]

It would take him 6 weeks of Spring Training to be more effective than Wakefield or Miller.

 

I disagree even with that. But effectiveness isn't even the primary consideration. They jerked the kid's delivery around in the first place because they saw problems with it that would lead to increased wear. Put him back in the rotation with those old mechanics (one of the reasons Bard got his mojo back was they let him revert) and he's going to get hurt.

[a700hitter]

I disagree even with that. But effectiveness isn't even the primary consideration. They jerked the kid's delivery around in the first place because they saw problems with it that would lead to increased wear. Put him back in the rotation with those old mechanics (one of the reasons Bard got his mojo back was they let him revert) and he's going to get hurt.

Yes, and they do such a great job of keeping their pitchers healthy.

[SoxFanForsyth]

To me, it's not even a discussion. Move Aceves to the 8th inning role, and move Bard to the SP role.

 

If things don't work out for him, it's incredibly easy to put him back in the RP role. If things do work out for him, you've got a potentially electric arm starting every 5 days, and you've got Aceves in the 8th inning role. He's absolutely good enough to be good in that role.

 

Like I said, it's not even a question. Move Bard to a SP. I don't care what his stats were in A+ ball when he was 22. Guess what. When Lester was in A+ ball, he posted a 4.28 ERA.

 

Plain and simple, minor league stats are utterly meaningless when it comes to translating to MLB stuff. And it's obvious that Bard has the stuff to be a borderline elite SP if he can harness it.

[SoxFanForsyth]

People are a bit naive if they think that this team would redevelop Bard as a starter in the big leagues.

 

We'd be looking at at least half a year in AAA for Bard as he reaccustomed himself to his starter's repertoire and proved he could be consistent.

 

2 seamer, 4 seamer, slider, change up? Those are 4 pitches, when coming off a 95-97 MPH fastball, that will be more than effective as a starter. He won't need to develop a starters repertoire because he's already got one.

 

And by the way guys. Bard struggled as a starter because he ad a 9.4 BB/9 (14.8 BB/9 in A+ ball) in his first season in the MLB, when he was a starter. I'm pretty sure he's got more control than that.

 

And Jacko is over here trying to say he'd be a terrible starter because he struggled for 75 IP over 22 starts when he was 22 in A-A+ ball. Give me a freaking break.

[a700hitter]

Even if he is committed' date=' he shouldnt be made into a starter.[/quote']With the Sox current roster configuration, do you maintain the same opinion on this matter?

[example1]

Do any of our pitchers have stamina. We are at the bottom of the heap on QS. He's a strong kid. He should have no problem being better than the garbage that we have had in the 4th and 5th slots for the last several years.

 

So Bard will be an improvement for the club, right? I know you can't know any of this, but you seemed pretty certain when you made the above post. Are you still pretty certain?

[a700hitter]

So Bard will be an improvement for the club' date=' right? I know you can't [i']know[/i] any of this, but you seemed pretty certain when you made the above post. Are you still pretty certain?

I am hoping. Unless he blows up, he would be better than last years 4th and 5th starters, but will that improvement offset the decreased efficiency in the pen by him leaving the pen? That is and has been my concern about this. All that being said, Bard can't fill the 4th and 5th spots. We need another starter.

[example1]

I am hoping. Unless he blows up' date=' he would be better than last years 4th and 5th starters, but will that improvement offset the decreased efficiency in the pen by him leaving the pen? That is and has been my concern about this. All that being said, Bard can't fill the 4th and 5th spots. We need another starter.[/quote']

 

Bard in the 4th spots improves on the 4th spot. The 5th spot, even with a cheap solution, is unlikely to be much worse than Wakefield/Lackey/Miller, right?

 

With that logic I can't see any conclusion other than the rotation being better than 2011. Add to this the relatively poor performance by Lester (good chance he will improve) and Buchholz returning to the team (he's at least returning, people can validly question his longterm durability but he's supposed to be healthy) and the rotation HAS to be better.

 

I guess from that conclusion, it seems reasonable to me why Ben wasn't out there spending tens of millions of dollars on pitching options for the longterm. What they will really need is a pleothera of established MLB pitchers who will have a chance to show that they are having a good enough season to fill in for 10-15 games if there is significant issue with Buchholz or Bard. To me, that's exactly what Silva, Cook and Padilla are. They are actually better depth options than this team has had for quite awhile.

 

The strategy to me seems pretty clear, and it IS a strategy (even though others, not you, would like to say Ben is stupid, or lazy or whatever other insullts they want to use). Specifically, the strategy is to assume better production from the 1-4 and guard against injuries with not just one or two previous MLB successes, but 3-4 of them. To me, that strategy is sound and is based on an analysis of the team (and its faults) that makes sense.

 

I think the best solution would be to add Oswalt or Jackson on a one year deal, and put Aceves back in the bullpen. Fingers crossed.

[a700hitter]

Bard in the 4th spots improves on the 4th spot. The 5th spot, even with a cheap solution, is unlikely to be much worse than Wakefield/Lackey/Miller, right?

 

With that logic I can't see any conclusion other than the rotation being better than 2011. Add to this the relatively poor performance by Lester (good chance he will improve) and Buchholz returning to the team (he's at least returning, people can validly question his longterm durability but he's supposed to be healthy) and the rotation HAS to be better.

 

I guess from that conclusion, it seems reasonable to me why Ben wasn't out there spending tens of millions of dollars on pitching options for the longterm. What they will really need is a pleothera of established MLB pitchers who will have a chance to show that they are having a good enough season to fill in for 10-15 games if there is significant issue with Buchholz or Bard. To me, that's exactly what Silva, Cook and Padilla are. They are actually better depth options than this team has had for quite awhile.

 

The strategy to me seems pretty clear, and it IS a strategy (even though others, not you, would like to say Ben is stupid, or lazy or whatever other insullts they want to use). Specifically, the strategy is to assume better production from the 1-4 and guard against injuries with not just one or two previous MLB successes, but 3-4 of them. To me, that strategy is sound and is based on an analysis of the team (and its faults) that makes sense.

 

I think the best solution would be to add Oswalt or Jackson on a one year deal, and put Aceves back in the bullpen. Fingers crossed.

The 5th guy needs to be a good established starter-- not great. He needs to be a guy capable of taking the ball every 5th day and giving the team a chance to win and not missing a significant number of starts. Caros Silva and Padilla and Cook don't meet these requirements. If we start out with them in the rotation, if bard has a hiccup at the beginning of the season, a tremendous strain will immediately be put on the bull pen. Also, I think you are not giving enough of analysis to the effect on the pen of moving bard to the rotation. I think most of us are around the middle of the spectrum where the overall pitching in 2012 will be around the same as last year if we don't add another starter. If we add a starter, it should be markedly improved. We don't need to spend mega-millions.

[Palodios]

The 5th guy needs to be a good established starter-- not great. He needs to be a guy capable of taking the ball every 5th day and giving the team a chance to win and not missing a significant number of starts. Caros Silva and Padilla and Cook don't meet these requirements. If we start out with them in the rotation' date=' if bard has a hiccup at the beginning of the season, a tremendous strain will immediately be put on the bull pen. Also, I think you are not giving enough of analysis to the effect on the pen of moving bard to the rotation. I think most of us are around the middle of the spectrum where the overall pitching in 2012 will be around the same as last year if we don't add another starter. If we add a starter, it should be markedly improved. We don't need to spend mega-millions.[/quote']

 

Who do you consider a "good established starter" ? Edwin Jackson, Owalt, and Saunders seem to be the only guys I see that could be described that way still available

[a700hitter]

Who do you consider a "good established starter" ? Edwin Jackson' date=' Owalt, and Saunders seem to be the only guys I see that could be described that way still available[/quote']I'm not a big Saunders fan, especially pitching half of his games in Fenway, but the other 2 would definitely qualify. Maybe there is still a trade possibility, maybe Garza is still in play.

[SoxSport]

Bard is a good option to try out as a starter in ST. If he pans out, he could be a good #4--somebody who could move up the rotation in case of injury to the top 3--which seems almost inevitable from past experience. If he doesn't, he goes to the BP.

 

But they are playing with fire if they expect any of this other mud they are signing will stick. They pretty much have to sign a guy like Oswalt for protection against what happened last year. The only caveat is Oswalt's back--he's a risk. But the others are too, and he was OK the last part of the year. Oswalt is an excellent competitor and still good enough if his back is OK. The other option is Jackson, but Boras wants way more than the guy has shown in his career. Everybody knows that. Better not to get stuck with him long term when the pickings will be better next year.

 

They have to pull the plug on Oswalt--before Texas has a chance to get him. An MRI should settle any back issues.

[RiceLynnEvans]

Bard is key to the late inning bullpen and Aceves is key in the swingman role....why meddle with a good thing? Malacon-Bard-Bailey to shut things down is a strength....Aceves-Fat Albers-One of many in middle relief is a strenght....the starting three plus Oswalt and a starter from the ranks is a strength.

 

There's no need to convert Bard; there's no need to convert Aceves....they are perfect where they are.

 

NOW GET A DAMN SHORTSTOP and a RH bench player with pop.

[RedSoxNC84]

Bard is key to the late inning bullpen and Aceves is key in the swingman role....why meddle with a good thing? Malacon-Bard-Bailey to shut things down is a strength....Aceves-Fat Albers-One of many in middle relief is a strenght....the starting three plus Oswalt and a starter from the ranks is a strength.

 

There's no need to convert Bard; there's no need to convert Aceves....they are perfect where they are.

 

NOW GET A DAMN SHORTSTOP and a RH bench player with pop.

 

I've heard it was basically Bard's idea to try and compete for a spot in the rotation. I know he didn't really want to keep setting up, and no one really believed he was ready to be the closer.

 

We don't need a shortstop THAT bad, we have Aviles/Punto, but MLBTR has said the Sox are still looking for an everyday shortstop, so I wouldn't be surprised to see someone like Ryan Theriot get signed, or some other type of middle infielder that will be cheap and capable of starting. Again, I don't believe we need one, I think our focus should stick to pitching.

 

As for your "RH bench player with pop" That's basically what we have Aviles for.

[10aeinhorn]

Couldnt be happier with the signing of Bailey in the closer role. As for Bard, its something worth thinking about, Bard wants to give it a shot. for the most part, Bard as been there when his number has been called and he deserves a shot if it it what he wants.

[RedSoxFan84]

I've said previously that I support the idea of moving Bard into the rotation. I mean what other choices do we have? Even if we sign an established starter (Oswalt, Jackson, Floyd, etc), we still need Bard as our 5th starter. If we DON'T sign anyone else, then what the hell do we do if we leave Bard in the pen? We'd have the Big Three and then an assortment of minor-league quality scrubs filling TWO starter spots. I'm hoping that we bring in an experienced guy as the 4th starter and use Bard as the 5th. He has the skills to do it, especially as he gets more experience in the role. It also means that Alfredo Aceves stays in the pen, along with Melancon, Bailey, and a handful of other guys, which makes for a decent pen in my opinion.

 

If we want to add more depth to the pen though, why not look at signing Sam Malone? He's older than he was last time he played baseball, but he seems to have got his drinking problem under control. On top of that, I once heard the late Ernie "Coach" Pantusso refer to Sam as "the best relief pitcher ever". It can't hurt to at least bring him in and take a look at him.

[RedSoxNC84]

I think they will have plenty of depth in the pen. If they really have to they can bring up one of the retreads they signed for depth, or possibly even move Bowden, Doubront, Tazawa, etc. up into a BP role.