2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[Palodios]

I like Scutaro and yes SS is a concern but you really think his absence will make much of a difference on the team? I don't think so.

 

People need to stop acting like we will be in 5th place if we don't acquire a pitcher. Yes it would benefit us but we won't collapse if we don't get anyone.

 

It isn't that Scutaro is irreplaceable, the problem is well beyond that. By replacing Scutaro with Aviles, they lose a reliable source of production and a good clubhouse guy, but it is not the end of the world. But then on top of that, instead of having Aviles as a backup, the team's utility guy is Punto who has hit to a .650 OPS for his whole career, and averages 1 home run per season.

 

It also sends the message that the Red Sox are sellers. That despite having fans sellout out their stadium for years on end, they can't afford to pay their starting shortstop? This organization can have no justification for trading Scutaro unless they use that money for something else more important.

[a700hitter]

But last year we were missing Buchholz for a good amount of time. We had Lackey with a 6.41 ERA going 12-12 and we had Dice-K before he got injured. We keep throwing out s*** to the mound(Wakefield, Miller, Morales, Weiland). We were ranked 22 in pitching.

 

Last year we had basically the best offense even with the performance of players like Darnell McDonald, Drew Sutton, Jed Lowrie, J.D Drew, Mike Cameron(before he left to the Marlins), Crawford(f*** all of you who call him a bust. He will perform much better this year).

 

We started off the season like 2-10 and once we got on top we led the AL for a while. It was September that f***ed us up.

 

I like Scutaro and yes SS is a concern but you really think his absence will make much of a difference on the team? I don't think so.

 

People need to stop acting like we will be in 5th place if we don't acquire a pitcher. Yes it would benefit us but we won't collapse if we don't get anyone.

 

@IOrtiz

 

WE MISSED THE PLAYOFFS BY ONE GAME.

 

Do you know how rare it is for a team like the Red Sox to blow a lead like that?

Ask Mets fans about 2007 and 2008. The missed the playoffs 2 years in a row on the last day of the season after collapsing at the end.

 

Last year's team was a 91 win team. That's the fact. Everything else is an excuse with regard to the team being better than that. Here's the very simple math that I apply to that team looking forward to 2012:

 

Add:

 

Bailey

Sweeney

Punto

Melancon

Ross

Shoppach

 

Subtract:

 

Papelbon

Scutaro

Lowrie

Reddick

Tek

 

I'm not seeing how that adds up to an improvement over the 91 win team in 2011. In 2012, we will get injuries too, so hoping for good health is nice, but talent-wise this team has not improved.

[example1]

Do you really have any optimism about Cook' date=' Silva or Padilla holding down a rotation spot for the season? I don't[/quote']

 

of course you don't.

[jung]

If the Cards are only offering Oswalt a deal as a relief pitcher that might be more evidence that there is something about Oswalt that has got baseball's professionals spooked. So far it appears that nobody is willing to offer him a deal that he wants in a place where he wants to play.

 

I really wonder about those reports that Oswalt turned down $10M from Detroit. Nobody else appears close to offering him anything like $10M. I suspect he turned down something from Detroit but it seems less likely to me that the deal he turned down was for $10M.

[a700hitter]

It isn't that Scutaro is irreplaceable, the problem is well beyond that. By replacing Scutaro with Aviles, they lose a reliable source of production and a good clubhouse guy, but it is not the end of the world. But then on top of that, instead of having Aviles as a backup, the team's utility guy is Punto who has hit to a .650 OPS for his whole career, and averages 1 home run per season.

 

It also sends the message that the Red Sox are sellers. That despite having fans sellout out their stadium for years on end, they can't afford to pay their starting shortstop? This organization can have no justification for trading Scutaro unless they use that money for something else more important.

Scutaro was not an All Star. He is replaceable, but from what I am hearing on NESN, neither Punto or Aviles are full time SS material.

[a700hitter]

of course you don't.

Do you?

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

It isn't that Scutaro is irreplaceable, the problem is well beyond that. By replacing Scutaro with Aviles, they lose a reliable source of production and a good clubhouse guy, but it is not the end of the world. But then on top of that, instead of having Aviles as a backup, the team's utility guy is Punto who has hit to a .650 OPS for his whole career, and averages 1 home run per season.

 

It also sends the message that the Red Sox are sellers. That despite having fans sellout out their stadium for years on end, they can't afford to pay their starting shortstop? This organization can have no justification for trading Scutaro unless they use that money for something else more important.

 

But we don't know what they plan on doing with the money? What if we get Jackson. Does that cover up for the move? Even if we got Oswalt there would have still been a problem at SS.

[a700hitter]

Did the FO actually say what they were going to do with Scutaros money? No. Everyone made assumptions. When the expectations didn't materialize the fallback position is that the FO is inept.

 

Here's how I see it, possibly: Sox free up money to get an OF they believed they needed. This also gave them the money they could use to address pitching. Oswalt, thinking hard about what he wants, realizes he doesn't want to pitch in the northeast, or AL, or on a one year deal if he has to pitch in the NE. Edwin Jackson's agent continues to hold out for multi year deal but might sign one year deal in Boston if other options suck. Trading for Floyd or Wandy remains a possibility. The Sox see all scenarios as relatively similar and are willing to see which route plays itself out rather than overpaying to force one route over another.

That's how it was reported in the press. They claimed to have had sources. These were not our assumptions. It's how it was reported.

 

You are making assumptions in your second paragraph.

[iortiz]

It isn't that Scutaro is irreplaceable, the problem is well beyond that. By replacing Scutaro with Aviles, they lose a reliable source of production and a good clubhouse guy, but it is not the end of the world. But then on top of that, instead of having Aviles as a backup, the team's utility guy is Punto who has hit to a .650 OPS for his whole career, and averages 1 home run per season.

 

It also sends the message that the Red Sox are sellers. That despite having fans sellout out their stadium for years on end, they can't afford to pay their starting shortstop? This organization can have no justification for trading Scutaro unless they use that money for something else more important.

 

Goddamn true.

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

Ask Mets fans about 2007 and 2008. The missed the playoffs 2 years in a row on the last day of the season after collapsing at the end.

 

Last year's team was a 91 win team. That's the fact. Everything else is an excuse with regard to the team being better than that. Here's the very simple math that I apply to that team looking forward to 2012:

 

Add:

 

Bailey

Sweeney

Punto

Melancon

Ross

Shoppach

 

Subtract:

 

Papelbon

Scutaro

Lowrie

Reddick

Tek

 

I'm not seeing how that adds up to an improvement over the 91 win team in 2011. In 2012, we will get injuries too, so hoping for good health is nice, but talent-wise this team has not improved.

 

God damn it old man, stop looking at all the flaws.

 

I did not say we would improve in that post even though it is possible. We started off really slow and we had a terrible back end in the rotation. The only person significant that we lost is Papelbon and all the bitching around here about big contracts, I'm glad we didn't pay more than the Phillies. Reddick just started off really hot but he wasn't too bad. Crawford is due to have a good season. Ellsbury-Pedroia-A-God-Youk-Ortiz-Crawford all hitting to their potential? Pitchers will have to go through hell. My original point in that post was even if we don't get a pitcher we're not in deep s*** like most people are making it out to be.

[iortiz]

SATURDAY, 2:14pm: The Rangers haven't made offer to Oswalt either, tweets Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports. Texas is interested in the veteran, but like the Cardinals, he's not an obvious fit for the club.

[a700hitter]

But we don't know what they plan on doing with the money? What if we get Jackson. Does that cover up for the move? Even if we got Oswalt there would have still been a problem at SS.

Starting pitching is the most pressing need for this team. You don't like to lose your SS, but if you get a pitcher it makes it easier to understand. I still would not be sold on the strategy if they still end up over the cap. I thought they were paring payroll to stay under the LT cap. Now, we are seeing solid info that with or without a starting pitcher we will still be over the cap.

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

Starting pitching is the most pressing need for this team. You don't like to lose your SS' date=' but if you get a pitcher it makes it easier to understand. I still would not be sold on the strategy if they still end up over the cap. I thought they were paring payroll to stay under the LT cap. Now, we are seeing solid info that with or without a starting pitcher we will still be over the cap.[/quote']

 

Of course no one likes to lose their SS but we didn't really have much depth anyways. SS hasn't been to friendly in Boston since Nomar. Pitcher or not the SS problem is still there. See where I'm getting at?

[example1]

That's how it was reported in the press. They claimed to have had sources. These were not our assumptions. It's how it was reported.

 

You are making assumptions in your second paragraph.

 

When it is possible to find reasonable explanations for things I see no reason to jump to people being stupid as the leading cause. Cherington isn't stupid; or, we don't have the data to know either way. Until we do I'm not going to specialize in drawing conclusions with insufficient data. You can, and probably will, while then contradicting yourself at the end of the season saying that results are the only thing that matter.

 

Right now you are saying that all that matters is how the team hypothetically will do, on paper. A logically consistent argument would be to say " I withhold judgment until the results are in, because as I have said ad nauseum, results are all that matter.".

[a700hitter]

God damn it old man, stop looking at all the flaws.

 

I did not say we would improve in that post even though it is possible. We started off really slow and we had a terrible back end in the rotation. The only person significant that we lost is Papelbon and all the bitching around here about big contracts, I'm glad we didn't pay more than the Phillies. Reddick just started off really hot but he wasn't too bad. Crawford is due to have a good season. Ellsbury-Pedroia-A-God-Youk-Ortiz-Crawford all hitting to their potential? Pitchers will have to go through hell. My original point in that post was even if we don't get a pitcher we're not in deep s*** like most people are making it out to be.

Don't let me bring you down. They should be still hanging in there until July when you make your trip to see the Yankees. I'm looking forward to the season. I always do. I will go to 1 weekend series in every month except September. However, I have to be honest about what I think of the roster so far. The FO really hasn't done much positive and they have made a number of slip ups that have lots of people shaking their heads even very positive enthusiastic guys like Palodios.

[iortiz]

Starting pitching is the most pressing need for this team. You don't like to lose your SS' date=' but [b']if you get a pitcher it makes it easier to understand. I still would not be sold on the strategy if they still end up over the cap[/b]. I thought they were paring payroll to stay under the LT cap. Now, we are seeing solid info that with or without a starting pitcher we will still be over the cap.

 

I agree with this. As we say here "Si te vas a mojar, empapate!" I do not know how to say it in english, maybe "If you're going to get wet, soak!"

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

Don't let me bring you down. They should be still hanging in there until July when you make your trip to see the Yankees. I'm looking forward to the season. I always do. I will go to 1 weekend series in every month except September. However' date=' I have to be honest about what I think of the roster so far. The FO really hasn't done much positive and they have made a number of slip ups that have lots of people shaking their heads even very positive enthusiastic guys like Palodios.[/quote']

 

What other move will it take for you to call it a good offseason? A pitcher, SS, both?

[iortiz]

When it is possible to find reasonable explanations for things I see no reason to jump to people being stupid as the leading cause. Cherington isn't stupid; or, we don't have the data to know either way. Until we do I'm not going to specialize in drawing conclusions with insufficient data. You can, and probably will, while then contradicting yourself at the end of the season saying that results are the only thing that matter.

 

Right now you are saying that all that matters is how the team hypothetically will do, on paper. A logically consistent argument would be to say " I withhold judgment until the results are in, because as I have said ad nauseum, results are all that matter.".

 

If the offseason ends right now, honestly, How will you rate it (offseason), beyond Cherington?

[example1]

What other move will it take for you to call it a good offseason? A pitcher' date=' SS, both?[/quote']

 

The only correct answer should be "I will evaluate the offseason based on their success this season." that is the only measure that matters.

[iortiz]

What other move will it take for you to call it a good offseason? A pitcher' date=' SS, both?[/quote']

 

Sounds crazy, but this SP could be the show stopper between make or do not make the POs. On the other hand, If you bring another SS like Scu as well SS+SP (very unlikely at this point), this will be a very good offseason IMO.

[iortiz]

The only correct answer should be "I will evaluate the offseason based on their success this season." that is the only measure that matters.

 

+1. True E1. Nobody can debate this. Results are all that matter.

 

Nevertheless we are trying to forecast the outcome... it is part of this thread, isn't it?

[example1]

If the offseason ends right now' date=' honestly, How will you rate it (offseason), beyond Cherington?[/quote']

 

Frankly I don't care much about the offseasons rating. Last year a700 was doing backflips with the offseason and it didn't matter. I'm not disappointed that they didn't resign papelbon to that absurd contract. I'm happy they got Melancon for the next few years. I think they were a very good team before and remain a very good team now. But I'm allowed to think that because my valuation of the team isn't linked solely to their final record at the end of last year.

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

Last year during the offseason everyone said we were complete. We had the media listing us in the WS vs the Phillies. How did the work out? E1 is absolutely on the money. Wait it out to avoid making yourself look bad if we do succeed.

[a700hitter]

When it is possible to find reasonable explanations for things I see no reason to jump to people being stupid as the leading cause. Cherington isn't stupid; or, we don't have the data to know either way. Until we do I'm not going to specialize in drawing conclusions with insufficient data. You can, and probably will, while then contradicting yourself at the end of the season saying that results are the only thing that matter.

 

Right now you are saying that all that matters is how the team hypothetically will do, on paper. A logically consistent argument would be to say " I withhold judgment until the results are in, because as I have said ad nauseum, results are all that matter.".

First of all, if people make mistakes it doesn't mean that they are stupid. I haven't called him stupid, (my Benny the Boob comment aside that was an attempt at humor). As far as finding reasonable explanations, isn't it reasonable to go by what has been reported in the press? At least they claim to have sources. We are at least using the only available information that we have-- the press reports. Your explanation is completely unsubstantiated.

 

Finally, with regard to your comment/advice about "withholding judgment until the results are in", wouldn't any discussion at that point just be 20-20 hindsight? What's wrong with discussing what we think now? Isn't that what you are doing with your explanation of how you think it went down and your faith in our pitching depth of Silva, Cook, and Padilla?

 

BTW: How do I contradict myself at the end of the season? Why when the news about the Sox is not encouraging do you always blame the messenger? We're just discussing what is in the press reports. Recent news: Scutaro traded in salary dump, Ross signed, Oswalt to probably sign with Cards, and Jackson a long shot to sign with Sox. This is all in the press reports. We are not making it up.

[example1]

+1. True E1. Nobody can debate this. Results are all that matter.

 

Nevertheless we are trying to forecast the outcome... it is part of this thread, isn't it?

 

If you were consistent you wouldn't play the forecasting game. You would withhold judgment until the end of the season.

 

You guys are acting as if it matters which particular mix of players the team has when, by your own logic, a teamful of Kelly schoppachs that wins 91 games is superior to a teamful of Dustin pedroias that wins 90. I'm smart enough to recognize that all this talk of "haven't done enough..." will be swept aside by the all powerful "resultsianism" at the end of the season. It's just a matter of time.

[iortiz]

I think that we are missing the point here. Right now, all we can do is to emit a forecast/opinion about the team and the league. The same happened last year and the year before etc etc. The outcome can take a looot of different directions, and that (outcome vs plan), is another kind of discussion/debate.

[a700hitter]

What other move will it take for you to call it a good offseason? A pitcher' date=' SS, both?[/quote']Getting Oswalt or Jackson would be very good. That's all I have been wanting all along-- one solid starter. Am I asking too much?

[a700hitter]

I agree with this. As we say here "Si te vas a mojar' date=' empapate!" I do not know how to say it in english, maybe "If you're going to get wet, soak!" [/quote']I like that saying.

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

Getting Oswalt or Jackson would be very good. That's all I have been wanting all along-- one solid starter. Am I asking too much?

 

Nope. So if we get Jackson I expect no more pessimism from you old man.

[a700hitter]

Frankly I don't care much about the offseasons rating. Last year a700 was doing backflips with the offseason and it didn't matter. I'm not disappointed that they didn't resign papelbon to that absurd contract. I'm happy they got Melancon for the next few years. I think they were a very good team before and remain a very good team now. But I'm allowed to think that because my valuation of the team isn't linked solely to their final record at the end of last year.

Last year was a great offseason. You are the one who keeps telling me how great the 2011 team was.