2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[iortiz]

Its best to avoid him' date=' Ortiz, when he posts like that. A few of his posts are worth considering and responding to, but none of the sarcastic personal ones. I just put him on manual ignore when he cannot behave himself.[/quote']

 

At some passages he has showed that he can behave. I don't mind if we disagree all the time. Unfourtunatly he takes some posts too personal, reason why I think he heats and act this way (making sarcastic posts and insulting people). Hopefully he changes his attitude. Hopefully he realizes that this a board and is plenty full of all kind of opinions. IMO Nothing should be treated or taken in a personal way. Hell, I would say that this board have a lot of nice posters. You are one of them pumpsie BTW.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Even 3.83 is lower than I think it will be. I'd say it will be, at best, around a 3.90-3.95. So I'll go ahead and place a sig wager with you that the Yankees team SP ERA will not be lower than 3.95 in 2012.

 

Do we have a wager? And what are the stipulations?

[a700hitter]

You're not getting what I'm saying, though.

 

If you compare, straight up, Kuroda's 2012 season vs Burnett's 2011 season, I think it will be an improvement. But, I think that Garcia will regress significantly in 2012 and offset that improvement. And I also think that Pineda will struggle to pitch better than Colon's 2011 numbers.

 

So, as a rotation, I think their numbers will be consistent with last year. At most, about a 5% decrease in ERA.

 

So, they had a team 4.03 ERA from their SP. I'd put a wager that the Yankees team SP ERA will not be lower than a 3.85 ERA in 2012.

The problem SFF is if the Yanks moves are wash with regard to their 2011, they did beat us by 7 games in 2011, so we are not closing the gap.

[iortiz]

It looks more like a detour year. The bridge apparently collapsed.

 

[SoxFanForsyth]

The problem SFF is if the Yanks moves are wash with regard to their 2011' date=' they did beat us by 7 games in 2011, so we are not closing the gap.[/quote']

 

Well yes - but that was not based on talent, that was based on an undisciplined September.

 

In terms of our #4 and #5 SP, it shouldn't be difficult to improve on Lackey's numbers. Beckett will regress, Lester should post a 3.1-3.3 ERA as usual. and Buchholz should throw for a complete season.

 

I think just by adding Aceves and Bard to the rotation, our SP has become significantly better. I guess I should say by removing Lackey from the rotation, our SP has become significantly better as well.

 

If Ben can go out and sign Oswalt to 1/7.5 with 1.5 in IP incentives, and we can put Bard or Aceves back in the bullpen, then we will have closed the gap, I think.

[Station 13]

Lackey was a 66+ ERA guy. It's always an addition by jettisoning a guy who put up those numbers.

Replace him with someone who is more of league average of 100+ERA (4.50 ERA) the wins total should go up a couple. Lackey got a .500 record thanks to the great run support. No reason to believe the offense will go napping in 2012.

 

Who replace Lackey? Just about anyone. Give Tazawa/Wilson a chance. Both got options to go down. They could not do worse than Lackey.

[iortiz]

There was nothing revisionist in my post. There are huge errors in your post above. At the time of the trading deadline, it was being reported that Buchholz condition was not improving and rather that it was worsening. As of July 28th, they were scheduling him to meet another back specialist and there was genuine concern that he would not return in 2011. It was being acknowledged in the press that Buchholz's injury might change the Sox approach to the trading deadline. It was reported in the press on August 1st that he had a stress fracture and was unlikely to come back. Here are links to articles that I found at that time. I am sure there are many more.

 

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/782809-mlb-trade-rumors-clay-buchholz-injury-worsening-red-sox-forced-to-trade

 

http://mlb.sbnation.com/2011/7/28/2300619/clay-buchholz-injury-red-sox-back

 

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/dailypitch/post/2011/08/boston-red-sox-clay-buchholz-back-injury/1

 

I acknowledged in my post that sometimes injuries cannot be prepared for or dealt with after the fact. However, 2011 was not that situation for the Sox. They had several options available to address the situation-- some very low cost and others at a high cost (like Fister-- who is a great pickup for the Tigers). The Sox opted for one fragile pitcher who was on the DL with a bad knee. They blew it. I never said that injuries aren't part of the discussion of what happened. Of course they are part of the reason for the collapse. There is no doubt about that. No one is disputing that. However, it is not an excuse for the FO in 2011 who didn't deal with the situation that was clearly becoming a crisis by the trading deadline. They knew Buchholz was not recovering. He had not even thrown off a mound by the trading deadline. They knew he had a fractured back before the deadline. Dice K had already undergone TJ surgery and it was suspected that Lackey was injured. There was a crisis staring them in the face and they responded with Bedard to bolster a $170 million payroll that was clearly in need of 3 starters. That was a huge misstep, and many of us non-professionals could see it at the time.

 

What would Harden have brought? He only needed to bring 1 or 2 wins more wins than either Weiland or Wakefield or Miller. That was it. He didn't have to bring a lot. It's acknowledged that he has good major league stuff. He was going to be better than the guys we were rolling out there 3 of every 5 games.

 

They didn't all get fired? One walked? Tito wouldn't have gotten fired if chicken-gate didn't go public? :lol: You really have nothing.

 

Finally, going forward, the FO Office apologists should be on notice that injuries will not be an excuse in 2012, unless as I said previously, their plane crashes. We have a rotation of 3 reliable Major League pitchers. To say that our pitching staff lacks depth at this point going into 2012 would be a huge understatement. The situation is clear to everyone. If they do nothing to address it and they suffer an injury to the big 3, while it will be a reason for another bad season, it will not excuse the FO negligence.

 

As always, you put the perspective in a much better way than I.

 

I wish I can manage my English like this in the near future.

[jung]

This is going to be a wicked generalization so I apologize in advance for that. But I think it likely that when Theo did look at what or I guess who he could actually bring in here last year to shore up the rotation so that we did not have to trot that ugly bunch of 6's and 7's out there, he did not see major upgrades. Sure it is easy in retrospect to say things like, if they only won one more game they would have made the post season. That "team" was a shambles with the rotation the most glaring and obvious open sore by the end of the year. That team was going nowhere.

 

Sure they ended up trotting a bunch of 6's and 7's out there. So we would have preferred what....that they spend money or assets to trot out a #5 guy every 5th day. That team was still going nowhere.

 

Fister would have been worth bringing in here....no doubt but we did nor have pieces to trade for Fister. Detroit did. I would say that was the one guy that you could have reasonable expectation for with regard to an improvement that was available and could make a difference. To be honest I am sure that if I really looked at Fister's numbers I could argue with myself even about him.

 

Would a #5 guy or even Fister have changed the mental attitude of that team taking the field every night by August and September? I don't think so. Look I think that the team mentality was so beaten down by year end that the one thing that scared them most was winning those last games and actually making it to the post season. They certainly played scared baseball. I do not care what Peddey says about his personal attitude at that time because Peddey can't play all eight every day positions and pitch and he can't look into the hearts of his teammates. I would also contend that Peddey is just the kind of guy that would be blind to where that team actually was at the end of the year. Peddey is not genetically wired to accept where that team was at the end of the year.

 

That team was a mess, the fruits of a total lack of leadership both within the locker room and the management offices at Fenway. Jesus can't we forget last year, finally. It was not painful enough?

 

What the hell are we pining for....a post season appearance with all of the failings of this team laid bare for another three games....about the time it would have taken for about any team with heart to have slain that dog in red stockings.

 

Look the most important lessons from last year were NOT, go into the season eight deep in starters and either be prepared for your rotation to turn to dust before your very eyes or be fortunate enough to have what it takes to bring in replacements and rebuild the staff in the middle of the season. The most important lessons from last year were about team balance between entitled, heavy contract stars and guys still playing for the love of the game and playing to make their mark and leadership both on the field and off the field.

 

You guys want to argue that the Sox should have found a way....fine...go find a team that suffered that much underperformance AND injury in its rotation from start to finish of the season AND "successfully" rebuilt the rotation during the course of the season. Bring me that and we can talk. Heck you only have about 150 years of history to go back on. If your case is so damn strong you should be able to find somebody.

 

While you are doing that remember what the goal is folks. If you don't win the last game played in a given year, the year is a failure. In baseball we get so bound up in stats and who did this and who was marginally better than that. We forget that the only thing that counts is winning that last game played!

[a700hitter]

As always, you put the perspective in a much better way than I.

 

I wish I can manage my English like this in the near future.

Your command of the English language is excellent. You should invite some of these posters into the Latin thread so you can confirm your suspicions about their circular arguments.

[a700hitter]

This is going to be a wicked generalization so I apologize in advance for that. But I think it likely that when Theo did look at what or I guess who he could actually bring in here last year to shore up the rotation so that we did not have to trot that ugly bunch of 6's and 7's out there, he did not see major upgrades. Sure it is easy in retrospect to say things like, if they only won one more game they would have made the post season. That "team" was a shambles with the rotation the most glaring and obvious open sore by the end of the year. That team was going nowhere.

 

Sure they ended up trotting a bunch of 6's and 7's out there. So we would have preferred what....that they spend money or assets to trot out a #5 guy every 5th day. That team was still going nowhere.

 

Fister would have been worth bringing in here....no doubt but we did nor have pieces to trade for Fister. Detroit did. I would say that was the one guy that you could have reasonable expectation for with regard to an improvement that was available and could make a difference. To be honest I am sure that if I really looked at Fister's numbers I could argue with myself even about him.

 

Would a #5 guy or even Fister have changed the mental attitude of that team taking the field every night by August and September? I don't think so. Look I think that the team mentality was so beaten down by year end that the one thing that scared them most was winning those last games and actually making it to the post season. They certainly played scared baseball. I do not care what Peddey says about his personal attitude at that time because Peddey can't play all eight every day positions and pitch and he can't look into the hearts of his teammates. I would also contend that Peddey is just the kind of guy that would be blind to where that team actually was at the end of the year. Peddey is not genetically wired to accept where that team was at the end of the year.

 

That team was a mess, the fruits of a total lack of leadership both within the locker room and the management offices at Fenway. Jesus can't we forget last year, finally. It was not painful enough?

 

What the hell are we pining for....a post season appearance with all of the failings of this team laid bare for another three games....about the time it would have taken for about any team with heart to have slain that dog in red stockings.

 

Look the most important lessons from last year were NOT, go into the season eight deep in starters and either be prepared for your rotation to turn to dust before your very eyes or be fortunate enough to have what it takes to bring in replacements and rebuild the staff in the middle of the season. The most important lessons from last year were about team balance between entitled, heavy contract stars and guys still playing for the love of the game and playing to make their mark and leadership both on the field and off the field.

 

You guys want to argue that the Sox should have found a way....fine...go find a team that suffered that much underperformance AND injury in its rotation from start to finish of the season AND "successfully" rebuilt the rotation during the course of the season. Bring me that and we can talk. Heck you only have about 150 years of history to go back on. If your case is so damn strong you should be able to find somebody.

 

While you are doing that remember what the goal is folks. If you don't win the last game played in a given year, the year is a failure. In baseball we get so bound up in stats and who did this and who was marginally better than that. We forget that the only thing that counts is winning that last game played!

Two comments on this post. First, we were not trotting out 6 and 7's. The guys we were trotting out like Weiland and Miller should not have been on the roster. Wakefield should have been in an assisted living facility. Harden and Millwood would have been 6 and 7's. We weren't in need of a big rotation piece. We needed a few competent starts from competent starters.

 

Second, how can you say we were going nowhere? We needed 2 more wins to get into the playoffs.

[jung]

If I had to deal in a second language I would have to use a translation software.

 

So I would be trying to grind my way through "like home run, big strong base first man"

[jung]

Second, how can you say we were going nowhere? We needed 2 more wins to get into the playoffs.

 

So you want to call them 8's for the most part...fine call them 8's I don't give a damn.

 

I repeat remember the goal. It is winning the last game played in any given season. That "team" had no chance of getting to and through and then winning a WS. I am not of the school of "all you need to do is get to the post season and then your chances are as good as anybody else's. That team would not have gotten out of the first round.

 

So do you have an example of a team that successfully did what you are asking that the Sox have done last year or not?

[ORS]

There was nothing revisionist in my post. There are huge errors in your post above. At the time of the trading deadline, it was being reported that Buchholz condition was not improving and rather that it was worsening. As of July 28th, they were scheduling him to meet another back specialist and there was genuine concern that he would not return in 2011. It was being acknowledged in the press that Buchholz's injury might change the Sox approach to the trading deadline. It was reported in the press on August 1st that he had a stress fracture and was unlikely to come back. Here are links to articles that I found at that time. I am sure there are many more.

 

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/782809-mlb-trade-rumors-clay-buchholz-injury-worsening-red-sox-forced-to-trade

 

http://mlb.sbnation.com/2011/7/28/2300619/clay-buchholz-injury-red-sox-back

 

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/dailypitch/post/2011/08/boston-red-sox-clay-buchholz-back-injury/1

 

I acknowledged in my post that sometimes injuries cannot be prepared for or dealt with after the fact. However, 2011 was not that situation for the Sox. They had several options available to address the situation-- some very low cost and others at a high cost (like Fister-- who is a great pickup for the Tigers). The Sox opted for one fragile pitcher who was on the DL with a bad knee. They blew it. I never said that injuries aren't part of the discussion of what happened. Of course they are part of the reason for the collapse. There is no doubt about that. No one is disputing that. However, it is not an excuse for the FO in 2011 who didn't deal with the situation that was clearly becoming a crisis by the trading deadline. They knew Buchholz was not recovering. He had not even thrown off a mound by the trading deadline. They knew he had a fractured back before the deadline. Dice K had already undergone TJ surgery and it was suspected that Lackey was injured. There was a crisis staring them in the face and they responded with Bedard to bolster a $170 million payroll that was clearly in need of 3 starters. That was a huge misstep, and many of us non-professionals could see it at the time.

 

What would Harden have brought? He only needed to bring 1 or 2 wins more wins than either Weiland or Wakefield or Miller. That was it. He didn't have to bring a lot. It's acknowledged that he has good major league stuff. He was going to be better than the guys we were rolling out there 3 of every 5 games.

 

They didn't all get fired? One walked? Tito wouldn't have gotten fired if chicken-gate didn't go public? :lol: You really have nothing.

 

Finally, going forward, the FO Office apologists should be on notice that injuries will not be an excuse in 2012, unless as I said previously, their plane crashes. We have a rotation of 3 reliable Major League pitchers. To say that our pitching staff lacks depth at this point going into 2012 would be a huge understatement. The situation is clear to everyone. If they do nothing to address it and they suffer an injury to the big 3, while it will be a reason for another bad season, it will not excuse the FO negligence.

Huge misstep? They missed the playoffs by one game, going 7-21 in September, with their best two pitchers doing this.....

 

Lester, 1-5, 5.40 ERA

Beckett, 1-2, 5.48 ERA

 

Was their recovery plan supposed to account for that happening out of the blue? I mean, that is the accusation here, that they failed to manuever around the roster impact injury was responsible for. Their recovery plan apparently, and realistically, assumed status quo, which would have been fine if the s*** didn't hit the fan in September.

 

That's the biggest reason they missed the playoffs, and the upper management response was pretty clear. Laugh all you want, but nobody got fired when they missed the playoffs because they failed to recover from injury in previous years.

 

I've never tried to pin anything or excuse anything on injuries. I just didn't want to see them thrown out the window on a nonsensical cliche.

[a700hitter]

So you want to call them 8's for the most part...fine call them 8's I don't give a damn.

 

I repeat remember the goal. It is winning the last game played in any given season. That "team" had no chance of getting to and through and then winning a WS. I am not of the school of "all you need to do is get to the post season and then your chances are as good as anybody else's. That team would not have gotten out of the first round.

 

So do you have an example of a team that successfully did what you are asking that the Sox have done last year or not?

They didn't need to rebuild a rotation. They needed some patches.

[jung]

They didn't need to rebuild a rotation. They needed some patches.

 

OK...have it your way. Remembering that the goal is to win the last game played in any season...do you have an example of a team that suffered that much underperformance AND injury in its rotation and "successfully" patched it during the course of the season.

[example1]

Of course the players lost it on the field. That is where things get decided. Howver' date=' we were only running two capable pitcher to the mound (Beckett and Lester) for the last 2 plus months of the season. The missing pieces of road were clear to everyone.[/quote']

 

And all they actually needed was 1 capable pitcher. Between Beckett, Lester, Bedard, etc., that Red Sox team should be predicted to do better than 7-20 9 times out of 10. If Papelbon performs a bit better then they squeek into the playoffs. They missed out by a hair, not by a road.

[jung]

And all they actually needed was 1 capable pitcher. Between Beckett, Lester, Bedard, etc., that Red Sox team should be predicted to do better than 7-20 9 times out of 10. If Papelbon performs a bit better then they squeek into the playoffs. They missed out by a hair, not by a road.

 

Oh yea and that team was on fire at the end of the season. Clearly with the addition of one more pitcher they would have been the hottest team going into the post season...clearly ready to go all the way.

 

I am going to say it one more time and I am absolutely sure that anybody that has played organized sports at any level from high school on will tell you the same thing. There is only one definition for a successful season....winning the last game played that year (i.e. winning the championship)!

[iortiz]

This is going to be a wicked generalization so I apologize in advance for that. But I think it likely that when Theo did look at what or I guess who he could actually bring in here last year to shore up the rotation so that we did not have to trot that ugly bunch of 6's and 7's out there, he did not see major upgrades. Sure it is easy in retrospect to say things like, if they only won one more game they would have made the post season. That "team" was a shambles with the rotation the most glaring and obvious open sore by the end of the year. That team was going nowhere.

 

Sure they ended up trotting a bunch of 6's and 7's out there. So we would have preferred what....that they spend money or assets to trot out a #5 guy every 5th day. That team was still going nowhere.

 

Fister would have been worth bringing in here....no doubt but we did nor have pieces to trade for Fister. Detroit did. I would say that was the one guy that you could have reasonable expectation for with regard to an improvement that was available and could make a difference. To be honest I am sure that if I really looked at Fister's numbers I could argue with myself even about him.

 

Would a #5 guy or even Fister have changed the mental attitude of that team taking the field every night by August and September? I don't think so. Look I think that the team mentality was so beaten down by year end that the one thing that scared them most was winning those last games and actually making it to the post season. They certainly played scared baseball. I do not care what Peddey says about his personal attitude at that time because Peddey can't play all eight every day positions and pitch and he can't look into the hearts of his teammates. I would also contend that Peddey is just the kind of guy that would be blind to where that team actually was at the end of the year. Peddey is not genetically wired to accept where that team was at the end of the year.

 

That team was a mess, the fruits of a total lack of leadership both within the locker room and the management offices at Fenway. Jesus can't we forget last year, finally. It was not painful enough?

 

What the hell are we pining for....a post season appearance with all of the failings of this team laid bare for another three games....about the time it would have taken for about any team with heart to have slain that dog in red stockings.

 

Look the most important lessons from last year were NOT, go into the season eight deep in starters and either be prepared for your rotation to turn to dust before your very eyes or be fortunate enough to have what it takes to bring in replacements and rebuild the staff in the middle of the season. The most important lessons from last year were about team balance between entitled, heavy contract stars and guys still playing for the love of the game and playing to make their mark and leadership both on the field and off the field.

 

You guys want to argue that the Sox should have found a way....fine...go find a team that suffered that much underperformance AND injury in its rotation from start to finish of the season AND "successfully" rebuilt the rotation during the course of the season. Bring me that and we can talk. Heck you only have about 150 years of history to go back on. If your case is so damn strong you should be able to find somebody.

 

While you are doing that remember what the goal is folks. If you don't win the last game played in a given year, the year is a failure. In baseball we get so bound up in stats and who did this and who was marginally better than that. We forget that the only thing that counts is winning that last game played!

 

Jung, let me me clarify my position in this "Injuries - No excuses" thing. I want to begin saying that nobody is disputing Theo's "good intentions" in order to build a team. I want to take the debate further. We are debating his short/mid/long future holistic strategy in order to make this team a successful one. Since the Injuries are an important part (I would say a key matter) of the game they shall taken seriously in your business/sportive strategy beyond the period of time.

 

Said that allow me reinforce my last arguments. I'm going to steal the "cause and effect" thing that ORS used, hopefully he doesn't charge me with a royalty .

 

If you analyze deeply and carefully every decision that Theo and his crew made in order to avoid this "Injury thing" you always will find out an alternative/dilemma. You will always find out a cause and an effect. You will always find out a cause-and-effect chain. Unfortunately his choices and his management wasn't the optimal in order to address this issue. The effect wasn't the expected, reason why I can presume that his short/mid/long strategy in order to address this regard (injuries) among a lot others wasn't good. You can not grade a business plan without the final result. They must be linked in order to make a final analysis. This is a principle of management. You can not say that he had a good business plan if the result was a failure. You could have had a lot of good intentions but not a good business plan/strategy. Great CXO or top managements are often judged on the outcome (first tier) and how their business plans reflect the outcome (Second tier). If the outcome meet or exceed the business plan/strategy, your business plan is a great one, otherwise you are only full of good intentions and you know what they say about good intentions. (Hell is full of good intentions).

 

That is my perspective and my opinion about this issue.

[a700hitter]

Huge misstep? They missed the playoffs by one game, going 7-21 in September, with their best two pitchers doing this.....

 

Lester, 1-5, 5.40 ERA

Beckett, 1-2, 5.48 ERA

It was a huge misstep precisely because they missed ony by 1 game. The need was clear. They were down 3 starting pitchers. They needed help. Almost no help was provided by the FO. They thought they had enough to make it through. They did not. That is precisely why the misstep was huge-- they missed the playoffs.

 

Was their recovery plan supposed to account for that happening out of the blue? I mean, that is the accusation here, that they failed to manuever around the roster impact injury was responsible for. Their recovery plan apparently, and realistically, assumed status quo, which would have been fine if the s*** didn't hit the fan in September.

 

That's the biggest reason they missed the playoffs, and the upper management response was pretty clear. Laugh all you want, but nobody got fired when they missed the playoffs because they failed to recover from injury in previous years.

The biggest reason for missing the playoffs was that a rotation with two starting pitchers could hold down the fort? Okay, if that's your opinion. Their failure to come up big was definitely a reason. So, now we are arguing about what was the "biggest cause" or "biggest reason"? I don't recall that being the argument, and I don't know what was the biggest cause. I do recall saying that there were several reasons for the collapse. IMO it was an organizational failure on all levels-- players, coaches, FO and everyone else except the food vendors. The FO bears its share of responsibility.

 

First, you argue that injuries were the reason, now you are looking to throw it all off on Beckett and Lester? What don't you spin in a few more circles. The argument was whether injuries excuse the FO. I say it doesn't and I backed up why. You come back with it is mainly Lester's and Beckett's fault? They had been operating with 2 competent pitchers for more than two months. They had a big problem-- an obvious one. They did almost nothing to address it.

 

I've never tried to pin anything or excuse anything on injuries. I just didn't want to see them thrown out the window on a nonsensical cliche.

and no one was throwing it "out the window on a nonsensical cliche". Injuries are an acknowledged reason for the collapse - a very big reason, but it does not excuse the FO from its responsibility for the collapse.

[a700hitter]

And all they actually needed was 1 capable pitcher. Between Beckett' date=' Lester, Bedard, etc., that Red Sox team should be predicted to do better than 7-20 9 times out of 10. If Papelbon performs a bit better then they squeek into the playoffs. They missed out by a hair, not by a road.[/quote']They would have lost by more if the rays weren't spitting the bit at the end too. It is precisely that they missed by a hair why there inaction is a huge mistake. The stakes were huge. You get the insurance.

[iortiz]

It was a huge misstep precisely because they missed ony by 1 game. The need was clear. They were down 3 starting pitchers. They needed help. Almost no help was provided by the FO. They thought they had enough to make it through. They did not. That is precisely why the misstep was huge-- they missed the playoffs.

 

The biggest reason for missing the playoffs was that a rotation with two starting pitchers could hold down the fort? Okay, if that's your opinion. Their failure to come up big was definitely a reason. So, now we are arguing about what was the "biggest cause" or "biggest reason"? I don't recall that being the argument, and I don't know what was the biggest cause. I do recall saying that there were several reasons for the collapse. IMO it was an organizational failure on all levels-- players, coaches, FO and everyone else except the food vendors. The FO bears its share of responsibility.

 

First, you argue that injuries were the reason, now you are looking to throw it all off on Beckett and Lester? What don't you spin in a few more circles. The argument was whether injuries excuse the FO. I say it doesn't and I backed up why. You come back with it is mainly Lester's and Beckett's fault? They had been operating with 2 competent pitchers for more than two months. They had a big problem-- an obvious one. They did almost nothing to address it.

 

and no one was throwing it "out the window on a nonsensical cliche". Injuries are an acknowledged reason for the collapse - a very big reason, but it does not excuse the FO from its responsibility for the collapse.

 

He is clearly going in circles. I asked him to point his main argument. He wasn't in a "desire" to debate with me, fine. At this point and being honest, I have no clue of what his point is anymore.

 

We failed. A lot of people walked. We must learn from the past. We have to plan better. We have to execute better. I think that all the board is agree with this. This is pretty much the substance of the debate, I think.

[ORS]

First, you argue that injuries were the reason, now you are looking to throw it all off on Beckett and Lester? What don't you spin in a few more circles. The argument was whether injuries excuse the FO. I say it doesn't and I backed up why. You come back with it is mainly Lester's and Beckett's fault? They had been operating with 2 competent pitchers for more than two months. They had a big problem-- an obvious one. They did almost nothing to address it.

 

and no one was throwing it "out the window on a nonsensical cliche". Injuries are an acknowledged reason for the collapse - a very big reason, but it does not excuse the FO from its responsibility for the collapse.

No, I never did. Read the effing thread, dude. You've got it 100% wrong. My discussion on the injury topic has only been about letting them be in the conversation. That discussion was with iortiz. Apparently, you are so allied with him that you rushed to his defense without taking the time to see what I was talking about. That's not my fault.

[ORS]

He is clearly going in circles. I asked him to point his main argument. He wasn't in a "desire" to debate with me, fine. At this point and being honest, I have no clue of what his point is anymore.

 

We failed. A lot of people walked. We must learn from the past. We have to plan better. We have to execute better. I think that we are all agree on this. This is pretty much the substance of the debate, I think.

What circles? What main argument? Our discussion last night was about a point you made and the consequences of that philosophy that I pointed out. I decided to end discussion with you because you lack the ability to recognize the legitimacy of those consequences. It's not my job to teach you.

[example1]

Oh yea and that team was on fire at the end of the season. Clearly with the addition of one more pitcher they would have been the hottest team going into the post season...clearly ready to go all the way.

 

I am going to say it one more time and I am absolutely sure that anybody that has played organized sports at any level from high school on will tell you the same thing. There is only one definition for a successful season....winning the last game played that year (i.e. winning the championship)!

 

I was talking about "all they needed" to achieve what a700 said would have been a baseline level of success, which would have kept the majority of "realists" here from their daily/hourly crusade.

 

You are reading out of context (usually you don't do that)..

[a700hitter]

No' date=' I never did. Read the effing thread, dude. You've got it 100% wrong. My discussion on the injury topic has only been about letting them be in the conversation. That discussion was with iortiz. Apparently, you are so allied with him that you rushed to his defense without taking the time to see what I was talking about. That's not my fault.[/quote']... and you were arguing about something that no one was doing. No one argued that injuries were not a reason. We acknowledged that. No one relegated it to a cliche.

 

BTW: iortiz argued you to the ground in his second language. At the end, you barely made sense.

[ORS]

... and you were arguing about something that no one was doing. No one argued that injuries were not a reason. We acknowledged that. No one relegated it to a cliche.

 

BTW: iortiz argued you to the ground in his second language. At the end, you barely made sense.

No, he didn't. Nice try, though.

 

Way to jump in and prove yourself incapable of getting things straight without being shown your error, Captain Hero!

[jung]

They would have lost by more if the rays weren't spitting the bit at the end too. It is precisely that they missed by a hair why there inaction is a huge mistake. The stakes were huge. You get the insurance.

 

Oh yea the Rays. Another example of the "all you have to do is get to the post season" argument. That is right. I forgot. The Rays were hooottttt going into the post season and sure enough, they won it all in 2011. Sure they did.

 

Iortiz if I take your meaning correctly you are saying that the Sox had settled on a process for team building that left them exposed. I agree with that and have said as much. In fact I have argued the flaws of that process so God Damned many times it is coming out of my ears.

 

However the point is being made that years of that process should have been successfully overturned and corrected or successfully "patched" I don't give a damn what you want to call it and the underperformance of key elements of some of those starters that remained should have been accounted for and also correct/patched whatever in the course of an ongoing major league season thus allowing the Sox to win the 2011 WS.

 

In my opinion that argument is bunk. I have asked for examples and none appear forthcoming.

 

and

 

If I may make an effort to transcend the pitching dilemma of 2011, I will ask for another example. Lets see if I have more luck this time. Give me an example of any team in any major professional sport that was as beaten down mentally at the end of the regular season, with the combination of underperforming and/ or injured players, with as many guys that through their own individual make-ups , lacking in leadership everywhere in the organization including the locker room had become so self-possessed, even to the point of being vocally and visually self-possessed, so lacking in heart, playing as gutlessly as the Sox were playing by season end that then went on to win a championship. Hint...there aren't any. Do not even try to present Dem fightin' A's or Jackson's "straw that stirs the drink" Yanks cause neither will wash with me.

 

That Sox team rotted from within. Ya' want to present the pitching issue as the reason why it rotted from within. Go ahead. There are teams with 0 budgets that in reality don't have a prayer or at least should not have a prayer that start the season with worse pitching than the Sox had that by the end of the last season had they been in a division series heads up with the Sox would have both beaten that dog in its tracks and had a better shot at winning a championship. One pitcher one way or the other would not have changed that. Certainly even pitchers that were available that the Sox could have been reasonably expected to have acquired/traded for given the assets at hand would not have changed that.

 

So I am with iortiz in what I believe he states is now his argument. This argument that the pitching dilemma that directly resulted should have been "successfully" righted during the course of an active regular season is a bunch of bunk and the argument that having done so thus crawling into the post season on the bellies would have produced a WS champion is bunk.

[a700hitter]

No, he didn't. Nice try, though.

 

Way to jump in and prove yourself incapable of getting things straight without being shown your error, Captain Hero!

...and you can have the last word.

[iortiz]

What circles? What main argument? Our discussion last night was about a point you made and the consequences of that philosophy that I pointed out. I decided to end discussion with you because you lack the ability to recognize the legitimacy of those consequences. It's not my job to teach you.

 

Yes, circles. Sorry, I have no clue what is your point anymore. You refuse to write it. You say that you are not in a desire. Instead you still saying this " I decided to end discussion with you because you lack the ability to recognize the legitimacy of those consequences". Those consequences are your opinion, I do not share your opinion. You have a lack of tolerance. It's not my job to teach you either.

[iortiz]

No, he didn't. Nice try, though.

 

Way to jump in and prove yourself incapable of getting things straight without being shown your error, Captain Hero!

 

Now you are in stage 2. You commence to post funny things and ridicule others since you do not have solid arguments anymore. Wait, I remember.... you like to laugh at him. Is it your modus operandi? Will you pass to stage 3? Will you laugh at me?.

 

If you want to debate, we can do that. If you want to ridicule me, sorry but I'm not in.