2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[a700hitter]

A700, these are the points I was responding to. These are all comments about Papelbon being the best "these days". Nothing about contract length. I was not being disingenuious.

 

I take your claims that I would be that as an insult, frankly.

Yeah right. I'm not fooled. I don't think iOrtiz is fooled either. It's funny how you will respond very precisely to a question when it suits your needs, but answer very broadly in other situations. Save your breath. In Brooklyn we learned to spot BS very early in life.

[a700hitter]

A700, these are the points I was responding to. These are all comments about Papelbon being the best "these days". Nothing about contract length. I was not being disingenuious.

 

I take your claims that I would be that as an insult, frankly.

I didn't mean to insult you, but I didn't mean it as a compliment either. I was merely describing the technique you used to answer the question.

[example1]

Take your own advice. You are the one who started mocking iOrtiz and me for as you put it "mind melding'"

 

and I guess you don't recall this wonderful compliment:

 

I don't make those statements lightly. I think about them and then think about them again before hitting submit. It isn't a usual part of how I make my point, but when you question the intellectual honesty of posters here--such as saying that I'm being disingenuous or obtuse--or saying that I won't answer a question because I'm like a politician, you write that as if I can't read what you're saying.

 

It was clear in that instance that he DID NOT say what he meant to say, and yet I'm the one accused of being obtuse because I didn't read his mind. It's ******** and you know it. In post after post he said he's the best closer in the game today, I countered with another poster and suddenly it is about most valuable going forward.

 

I don't fault him for changing it to the next 4 years, he was clear to reframe the question. It is you, being stubborn and argumentative, that kept the s*** going. That's what gets to me and made me bring out words that were unflattering about you. Apologies that they offended you.

[example1]

Yeah right. I'm not fooled. I don't think iOrtiz is fooled either. It's funny how you will respond very precisely to a question when it suits your needs' date=' but answer very broadly in other situations. Save your breath. In Brooklyn we learned to spot BS very early in life.[/quote']

 

Not fooled by what? The post after post of him using the term the way I interpreted it, rather than the way he clarified it later? Jesus, you're really reaching here.

 

I'm telling you, on my honor, that I interpreted it that way. If you don't believe me I don't know what to tell you, other than that I think you're just trying to pick a fight.

[a700hitter]

I don't make those statements lightly. I think about them and then think about them again before hitting submit. It isn't a usual part of how I make my point, but when you question the intellectual honesty of posters here--such as saying that I'm being disingenuous or obtuse--or saying that I won't answer a question because I'm like a politician, you write that as if I can't read what you're saying.

 

It was clear in that instance that he DID NOT say what he meant to say, and yet I'm the one accused of being obtuse because I didn't read his mind. It's ******** and you know it. In post after post he said he's the best closer in the game today, I countered with another poster and suddenly it is about most valuable going forward.

 

I don't fault him for changing it to the next 4 years, he was clear to reframe the question. It is you, being stubborn and argumentative, that kept the s*** going. That's what gets to me and made me bring out words that were unflattering about you. Apologies that they offended you.

The whole discussion was in the context of Papelbon's contract.

[example1]

I didn't read it in the context that you did. I took him to say that Papelbon is the best closer in the game and therefore worth whatever it would take to keep him. I contested his point.

 

EDIT: I changed my original post "I missed the context" because looking back I think I interpreted it correctly, and still think his point was made unclearly over and over again. If you're talking about length of contract and value moving forward then say it. I'm not convinced that's what he was saying.

[a700hitter]

I don't make those statements lightly. I think about them and then think about them again before hitting submit. It isn't a usual part of how I make my point, but when you question the intellectual honesty of posters here--such as saying that I'm being disingenuous or obtuse--or saying that I won't answer a question because I'm like a politician, you write that as if I can't read what you're saying.

 

It was clear in that instance that he DID NOT say what he meant to say, and yet I'm the one accused of being obtuse because I didn't read his mind. It's ******** and you know it. In post after post he said he's the best closer in the game today, I countered with another poster and suddenly it is about most valuable going forward.

 

I don't fault him for changing it to the next 4 years, he was clear to reframe the question. It is you, being stubborn and argumentative, that kept the s*** going. That's what gets to me and made me bring out words that were unflattering about you. Apologies that they offended you.

I don't mind you taking shots at me, but don't take a shot and then ask be to get myself in line. That's not very fair.

[example1]

I don't mind you taking shots at me' date=' but don't take a shot and then ask be to get myself in line. That's not very fair.[/quote']

 

Okay, if you percieved that I did that then I apologize.

 

I don't try to take shots at you.

 

Perhaps you need to start posting with a Brooklyn accent or something... where I'm from people don't insult the credibility, hoensty, or intelligence of people and expect to continue having a civil or rational discussion. An accent would remind me that we come from different places and to take it all in stride a bit better.

 

I find you hard to deal with, but we've come much too far over 6 years to let Papelbon's departure end our baseball-friendship.

[a700hitter]

And what is wrong with Aceves in the 8th? Nowhere as good as Bard' date='[/b'] but he's still a very good option. The problem is filling the #5 starter slot.

I think you said it better than I could have. He's nowhere as good as Bard. The pen has been tremendously weakened, and we have reduced our options for the rotation.

[iortiz]

A700, these are the points I was responding to. These are all comments about Papelbon being the best "these days". Nothing about contract length. I was not being disingenuious.

 

I take your claims that I would be that as an insult, frankly.

 

The context was these days?, yes! But in moving foreward context, since he just signed a 4 year contract and with the damn Phillie. That has been the heart of the discussion. Did I miss something?

 

BTW I won't disrespect you E1, as you just did.

 

I blame and sometimes bitch Theo, Lackey, D-K, Cameron, McDonald, etc. but never, ever a poster. I could be disagree but I have not insulted a poster, never, ever.

 

After all, I still like debate with you and learn from you if you allow me. This is baseball. Nothing personal. Peace!

[example1]

I think you said it better than I could have. He's nowhere as good as Bard. The pen has been tremendously weakened' date=' and we have reduced our options for the rotation.[/quote']

 

And yet the offseason isn't over, there's money off the books and draft picks coming to the Sox. I still think the only people in panic mode now are the people who are prone to panic or the people who really love to be pissed off about something whenver possible.

 

People should settle down. Larry Lucchino and Ben Cherington are not going to drive this team into the ground.

[example1]

The context was these days?, yes! But in moving foreward context, since he just signed a 4 year contract and with the damn Phillie. That has been the heart of the discussion. Did I miss something?

 

BTW I won't disrespect you E1, as you just did.

 

I blame and sometimes bitch Theo, Lackey, D-K, Cameron, McDonald, etc. but never, ever a poster. I could be disagree but I have never insulted a poster.

 

After all, I still like debate with you and learn from you if you allow me. This is baseball. Nothing personal. Peace!

 

I went out of my way to only hurl insults at a700, not you. If one slipped toward you then I apologize. As you will learn, I try to be as particular about language as possible. Sometimes I may miss reading between the lines, but I figure if people have time to write something they have time to be clear. I don't do it to intentionally obfuscate.

 

EDIT: I now realize you weren't saying he's the best today... let's not get into that again. He may be the best combination of experience, current talent, and age, but not the best with a ball in his hand.

 

I merely contest your (repeated) claim that Papelbon is the best closer today. I don't think he is. Sadly, I think even over the next four years that f***ing robot Mariano Rivera could continue to be better than him because.. well, he's a f***ing robot. I pray that I'm wrong. Cheers.

[a700hitter]

Okay, if you percieved that I did that then I apologize.

 

I don't try to take shots at you.

 

Perhaps you need to start posting with a Brooklyn accent or something... where I'm from people don't insult the credibility, hoensty, or intelligence of people and expect to continue having a civil or rational discussion. An accent would remind me that we come from different places and to take it all in stride a bit better.

 

I find you hard to deal with, but we've come much too far over 6 years to let Papelbon's departure end our baseball-friendship.

I'll try to be less blunt, but it is a big part of who I am. You should realize that you disagree with everything I post even if I am not engaging you. I don't think you are wrong about everything, but you take issue with even my most innocuous posts. I'm not being sensitive here. Your disagreements don't bother me. I'm just making an observation.

[a700hitter]

I went out of my way to only hurl insults at a700, not you. If one slipped toward you then I apologize. As you will learn, I try to be as particular about language as possible. Sometimes I may miss reading between the lines, but I figure if people have time to write something they have time to be clear. I don't do it to intentionally obfuscate.

 

EDIT: I now realize you weren't saying he's the best today... let's not get into that again. He may be the best combination of experience, current talent, and age, but not the best with a ball in his hand.

 

I merely contest your (repeated) claim that Papelbon is the best closer today. I don't think he is. Sadly, I think even over the next four years that f***ing robot Mariano Rivera could continue to be better than him because.. well, he's a f***ing robot. I pray that I'm wrong. Cheers.

You basically did accuse iOrtiz of being too stupid or having too poor a command of English to have figured out that i am a blowhard.

[example1]

I'll try to be less blunt' date=' but it is a big part of who I am. You should realize that you disagree with everything I post even if I am not engaging you. I don't think you are wrong about everything, but you take issue with even my most innocuous posts. I'm not being sensitive here. Your disagreements don't bother me. I'm just making an observation.[/quote']

 

I'm not being sensitive either. I do find your blunt language really difficult to tolerate and there is definitely part of me that would love for you to stop using it by having more of it thrown back in your face when you are wrong. However, I don't do that (anymore) based on previous truces and an understand I've come to have of you as a poster. It's been a long learning process for both of us.

[a700hitter]

And yet the offseason isn't over, there's money off the books and draft picks coming to the Sox. I still think the only people in panic mode now are the people who are prone to panic or the people who really love to be pissed off about something whenver possible.

 

People should settle down. Larry Lucchino and Ben Cherington are not going to drive this team into the ground.

IOrtiz made an excellent point earlier in the day. The Phillies poached Paps, putting tremendous pressure on our bullpen and taking Bard and Aceves off the table as starters. If the yankees beat us to the good starters and Beltran, we'll be screwed. I think you are being overconfident that we will have a strong team in 2012.

[example1]

You basically did accuse iOrtiz of being too stupid or having too poor a command of English to have figured out that i am a blowhard.

 

Ha. There will be a day when IOrtiz writes something like "you were right, E1, a700 is a blowhard" but until then I will stop trying to convince him. Just kidding, of course. You would be the first to admit that you put being opinionated ahead of being right and that sometimes that works for you, and sometimes it doesn't.

 

Me, on the other hand, I'm "what's wrong with society today" (or whatever) because I prefer a more nuanced view of things. Generational, background, all sorts of differences between you and I.

 

I'm just glad you have a real, honest-to-goodness, online friend in iOrtiz.

[iortiz]

You basically did accuse iOrtiz of being too stupid or having too poor a command of English to have figured out that i am a blowhard.

 

[example1]

IOrtiz made an excellent point earlier in the day. The Phillies poached Paps' date=' putting tremendous pressure on our bullpen and taking Bard and Aceves off the table as starters. [b']If the yankees beat us to the good starters and Beltran, we'll be screwed. I think you are being overconfident that we will have a strong team in 2012.[/b]

 

I'm a chess player. I'm convinced that there's always a good move that can be made--even when that may not be the case. From that perspective, however, there are often good moves that can be made if you're willing to look ahead a few moves and not be so concerned with losing your current position or a certain piece.

 

I think the Yankees have many of their own problems to work out. I think they have a handful of good players and a number who are an injury or sunrise away from being troublesome.

 

The have had years to figure out how to create an actual rotation and, despite your love for Brian Cashman, they haven't done it. This year they somehow scraped by on Ivan Nova and Freddy Garcia and Bartolo Colon. None of those players are scary. Texas beat them around and they don't post a huge threat to the Sox.

 

I'm also not afraid of CJ Wilson in pinstripes, especially if they have to pay a fair amount in money and/or years for him.

 

I'm also not afraid that the Yankees will trade someone like Montero for a good pitcher. I fear Montero for the next 10 years more than I do the Yankees getting a great pitcher, even someone like Felix.

 

I guess I just don't live in as much fear of the Yankees.

 

The Sox play 162 games, and something like 144 of those are against teams NOT the Yankees. If they win all of those games then they have nothing to worry about from NY. If they win most of those games they are fine.

 

I think the Sox will field a better team than every team in the AL not including the Rangers, Yankees and maybe the Rays. I think they could be better than any of those teams, and that those teams have to deal with their own demons too. Unfortunately, the Sox have to beat out two other really good teams to make the playoffs. That's a tough expectation, but it has to be done.

 

I think with Beckett and Lester the Sox have as good a 1-2 punch as any team in the AL. I think with Ellsbury, Pedroia, Gonzalez and Youkilis (and others) they have the best offense in baseball. I'm hopeful that the rest of the team will fill out.

[a700hitter]

I'm not being sensitive either. I do find your blunt language really difficult to tolerate and there is definitely part of me that would love for you to stop using it by having more of it thrown back in your face when you are wrong. However' date=' I don't do that (anymore) based on previous truces and an understand I've come to have of you as a poster. It's been a long learning process for both of us.[/quote']Being wrong on rare occasions and having it thrown in my face repeatedly would not change my posting style. On the occasions when I am wrong, I acknowledge it. I don't waste my time fight losing battles. If Ben was my brother, I would not be taking your side of this papelbon argument, because I can't see what there is to be won. Yesterday, we had the best 8th inning pitcher and one of the best closers. Today, we have closer who has never been a closer for a full season and we are without our shutdown 8th inning guy. It's a huge hole that has been blown through our pen. There is nothing to rationalize. I don't want to hear about the money. The Phillies are as smart an organization as the Red Sox. If we don't have the money to sign Paps, it is because the FO has squandered too much over the last several years. No matter how you slice it, it is the fault of the FO that we no longer have the 8th and 9th innings locked down, and I'm not holding my breath waiting to see the next paps.

[iortiz]

Ha. There will be a day when IOrtiz writes something like "you were right, E1, a700 is a blowhard" but until then I will stop trying to convince him. Just kidding, of course. You would be the first to admit that you put being opinionated ahead of being right and that sometimes that works for you, and sometimes it doesn't.

 

Me, on the other hand, I'm "what's wrong with society today" (or whatever) because I prefer a more nuanced view of things. Generational, background, all sorts of differences between you and I.

 

I'm just glad you have a real, honest-to-goodness, online friend in iOrtiz.

 

A700 es mi compadre!

 

You can be as well

[a700hitter]

Ha. There will be a day when IOrtiz writes something like "you were right, E1, a700 is a blowhard" but until then I will stop trying to convince him. Just kidding, of course. You would be the first to admit that you put being opinionated ahead of being right and that sometimes that works for you, and sometimes it doesn't.

 

Me, on the other hand, I'm "what's wrong with society today" (or whatever) because I prefer a more nuanced view of things. Generational, background, all sorts of differences between you and I.

 

I'm just glad you have a real, honest-to-goodness, online friend in iOrtiz.

There are plenty of subtleties and grey areas in life, and i make my living navigating them, but you still need to identify the black and white issues.

[iortiz]

Being wrong on rare occasions and having it thrown in my face repeatedly would not change my posting style. On the occasions when I am wrong' date=' I acknowledge it. I don't waste my time fight losing battles. If Ben was my brother, I would not be taking your side of this papelbon argument, because I can't see what there is to be won. Yesterday, we had the best 8th inning pitcher and one of the best closers. Today, we have closer who has never been a closer for a full season and we are without our shutdown 8th inning guy. It's a huge hole that has been blown through our pen. There is nothing to rationalize. I don't want to hear about the money. The Phillies are as smart an organization as the Red Sox. If we don't have the money to sign Paps, it is because the FO has squandered too much over the last several years. No matter how you slice it, it is the fault of the FO that we no longer have the 8th and 9th innings locked down, and I'm not holding my breath waiting to see the next paps.[/quote']

 

Huge hole.

 

We have two scenarios, if we want to be a 2012 contender team.

 

1.- JH opens the checkbook

2.- Cherington (or should I say Luchino?) better be very very creative.

[example1]

Being wrong on rare occasions and having it thrown in my face repeatedly would not change my posting style. On the occasions when I am wrong' date=' I acknowledge it. I don't waste my time fight losing battles. If Ben was my brother, I would not be taking your side of this papelbon argument, because I can't see what there is to be won. Yesterday, we had the best 8th inning pitcher and one of the best closers. Today, we have closer who has never been a closer for a full season and we are without our shutdown 8th inning guy. It's a huge hole that has been blown through our pen. There is nothing to rationalize. I don't want to hear about the money. The Phillies are as smart an organization as the Red Sox. If we don't have the money to sign Paps, it is because the FO has squandered too much over the last several years. No matter how you slice it, it is the fault of the FO that we no longer have the 8th and 9th innings locked down, and I'm not holding my breath waiting to see the next paps.[/quote']

 

I guess my push-back would be that you don't need the next Paps. Teams have won with lots of arrangements in the past. Some teams have the obvious 8th and 9th inning guys from in-house. Others trade for them mid-season and others do fine with what they have. Others find those pieces throughout the year or options show up from within.

 

Do you remember people freaking out because Jason Bay was not going to be another Manny? I remember some of those same people (none of them you) freaking out because someone else was not going to be another Jason Bay. Teams take different forms over time. You know this.

 

The Sox will have talent flooding into their roster moving forward. This is a resource rich team that spends its resources. Not every move has worked out, some are still being tested. If Crawford continues to suck for the duration of his contract this team is in trouble. If he bounces back this is a stellar team. You seemed to feel very strongly that he was an elite player before they signed him, and he's the same guy now as he was before. I'm optimistic that can happen.

[a700hitter]

I'm a chess player. I'm convinced that there's always a good move that can be made--even when that may not be the case. From that perspective, however, there are often good moves that can be made if you're willing to look ahead a few moves and not be so concerned with losing your current position or a certain piece.

 

I think the Yankees have many of their own problems to work out. I think they have a handful of good players and a number who are an injury or sunrise away from being troublesome.

 

The have had years to figure out how to create an actual rotation and, despite your love for Brian Cashman, they haven't done it. This year they somehow scraped by on Ivan Nova and Freddy Garcia and Bartolo Colon. None of those players are scary. Texas beat them around and they don't post a huge threat to the Sox.

 

I'm also not afraid of CJ Wilson in pinstripes, especially if they have to pay a fair amount in money and/or years for him.

 

I'm also not afraid that the Yankees will trade someone like Montero for a good pitcher. I fear Montero for the next 10 years more than I do the Yankees getting a great pitcher, even someone like Felix.

 

I guess I just don't live in as much fear of the Yankees.

 

The Sox play 162 games, and something like 144 of those are against teams NOT the Yankees. If they win all of those games then they have nothing to worry about from NY. If they win most of those games they are fine.

 

I think the Sox will field a better team than every team in the AL not including the Rangers, Yankees and maybe the Rays. I think they could be better than any of those teams, and that those teams have to deal with their own demons too. Unfortunately, the Sox have to beat out two other really good teams to make the playoffs. That's a tough expectation, but it has to be done.

 

I think with Beckett and Lester the Sox have as good a 1-2 punch as any team in the AL. I think with Ellsbury, Pedroia, Gonzalez and Youkilis (and others) they have the best offense in baseball. I'm hopeful that the rest of the team will fill out.

But it is not chess. The Fo doesn't get a turn. The teams that prepare better and execute better can make several moves that will derail our FO strategy. After signing Paps, the Phillies will not wait for us to make a move. They may sign Beltran tomorrow. That would force us to re-sign Ortiz. If they don't execute in a timely fashion, all good options can be taken off the table.

[example1]

There are plenty of subtleties and grey areas in life' date=' and i make my living navigating them, but you still need to identify the black and white issues.[/quote']

 

Can we agree that football coaches raping 10 year old boys is intolerable?

[example1]

But it is not chess. The Fo doesn't get a turn. The teams that prepare better and execute better can make several moves that will derail our FO strategy. After signing Paps' date=' the Phillies will not wait for us to make a move. They may sign Beltran tomorrow. That would force us to re-sign Ortiz. If they don't execute in a timely fashion, all good options can be taken off the table.[/quote']

 

But this is not something they are unaware of. The turn-based routine of chess is particular to chess, but taking the rules and reality of the "game" into account is part of any complex game like this. Of course the FO knows that people aren't going to sit around and wait.

 

Sometimes I just get the sense that you are very uncomfortable not being in control of things. You seem to have a hard time putting much faith in other people to do what it takes to not totally and utterly f*** things up. Am I totally off base here?

 

EDIT: and furthermore, the fact that this has been coming for years means that this move was understood within their strategy. They weren't going to have Papelbon back and clearly think that is a move that can be tolerated. If it weren't, they wouldn't have anticipated it and allowed it. They would have made him an offer he couldn't refuse.

[a700hitter]

Ha. There will be a day when IOrtiz writes something like "you were right, E1, a700 is a blowhard" but until then I will stop trying to convince him. Just kidding, of course. You would be the first to admit that you put being opinionated ahead of being right and that sometimes that works for you, and sometimes it doesn't.

 

Me, on the other hand, I'm "what's wrong with society today" (or whatever) because I prefer a more nuanced view of things. Generational, background, all sorts of differences between you and I.

 

I'm just glad you have a real, honest-to-goodness, online friend in iOrtiz.

iOrtiz and I don't agree on everything. We are not in agreement on the players that we would let walk and those who should be pursued. Sometimes he convinces me and sometimes I convince him. Sometimes we just disagree. We don't characterize each other, so we don't read each others posts with a biased predisposition. I don't view him as an optimist, pessimist or anything else. He's just a smart guy that has a lot of interesting thoughts. I don't view you in any particualr category. That may surprise you. Others may put you in the optimist category, but I have been here at times when you were not at all optimistic. You have a tendency never to want to assign blame or fault. That doesn't make you an optimist or a pessimist or a realist. It makes you a bit of a softie. I'm big on accountability. I don't mind owning up to my own mistakes in life, so I feel that others should own up also. I will not hesitate to let someone know that they are wrong, and on an internet forum, there is no need for me to tactful when criticizing people that i don't know and who don't post in this forum, i.e the FO, players, managers and umpires. That shouldn't offend people unless they are related to those people.

[a700hitter]

Can we agree that football coaches raping 10 year old boys is intolerable?

That's as black and white as an issue can get.

[a700hitter]

Sometimes I just get the sense that you are very uncomfortable not being in control of things. You seem to have a hard time putting much faith in other people to do what it takes to not totally and utterly f*** things up. Am I totally off base here?

Nah, I am fully aware that i am in control of almost nothing in life. As i have openly admitted here, I am an opinionated know it all. I do know a lot, but I don't know it all. I just give that impression.