Crawford put on Waivers

[Palodios]

There ya go. That's the attitude. Nice and coddling. Don't worry about upsetting a logical lineup construction based on player performance' date=' just hand them their binky, and get your team psychologist to figure out what it takes for them to find their happy place. :dunno:[/quote']

 

 

So Darnell Mcdonald deserved to hit 2nd? Until Youkilis comes back, there is no reason to platoon Scutaro/Mcdonald in the 2nd spot with Crawford hitting so low in the order.

[SoxFanForsyth]

There ya go. That's the attitude. Nice and coddling. Don't worry about upsetting a logical lineup construction based on player performance' date=' just hand them their binky, and get your team psychologist to figure out what it takes for them to find their happy place. :dunno:[/quote']

 

I never said that we needed to put him 2nd. I said that "by putting him second, you cannot definitively say he wouldn't perform better" because he could be more comfortable at that spot.

 

On April 21st, Ellsbury was hitting .186/.273/.407. Then he got moved to the leadoff role. Since then, he's hit .328/.381/.535. I'm not implying that this was entirely due to him being placed in a slot that he is more used to, which promotes confidence and comfort at the plate, but to say that moving Ellsbury to the top of the order had no impact on his increased production is just ignorant.

 

Some players need to be coddled. I don't hear you griping and crying because Beckett throws to Varitek every outing. Where's your argument that Saltalamacchia is a better hitter and impacts our line up better than Varitek? Is it gone because Beckett has thrown to a 2.50 ERA all season? Yeah. I figured if players perform, you wouldn't bring it up.

[a700hitter]

I think the Crawford batting #2 ship has sailed. With Ellsbury and Pedroia hitting and setting the table, there is no reason to upset the apple cart. While Pedroia batting clean up, Scutaro has performed okay in the 2nd slot. He gets a fair about of hits and walks, and many of his outs are productive.

[SoxFanForsyth]

I think the Crawford batting #2 ship has sailed. With Ellsbury and Pedroia hitting and setting the table' date=' there is no reason to upset the apple cart. While Pedroia batting clean up, Scutaro has performed okay in the 2nd slot. He gets a fair about of hits and walks, and many of his outs are productive.[/quote']

 

Well the only argument that I have is this - if we're ever going to see if Crawford performed better in a more comfortable role, now is the time to do it. I understand that you never want to mess up with the chemistry, but obviously this season is going bad for Crawford and a lot of it is mental. Right now is the perfect time (since Youk is out) to see if Crawford would perform better out of the 2 slot, if it would give him the confidence he needs.

 

Everyone always argues that you don't want to mess with the 1-5, but tell me something. What if we move Crawford to the 2 slot and he starts performing like the Carl Crawford we signed? Would you rather have Crawford hitting 2nd, putting up a line of .310/.355/.500, and bump Pedroia to 3, Gonzo to 4, Ortiz to 5, and Youk to 6, or would you rather keep Crawford in the 6 hole and have him hit .265/.310/.380? If you say you'd rather have him 6th, that's ridiculous and completely stubborn/hard headed. Nobody is saying that he would absolutely turn it around if he hit 2nd, but if Youk is out and your regular #2 hitter is now in the 4 slot, why the hell wouldn't you at least try to get one of your premier bats, at least coming into the season, going for the stretch? It makes zero sense not to do that, and worst case scenario instead of having Darnell McDonald go 0-4, you have Carl Crawford go 0-4. Best case? You find out that Carl Crawford is another needy player (just like Beckett) who performs better in certain roles. So you put him in the 2 slot and make it work, just like you throw Beckett to Varitek every outing and make it work.

[ORS]

 

So Darnell Mcdonald deserved to hit 2nd? Until Youkilis comes back, there is no reason to platoon Scutaro/Mcdonald in the 2nd spot with Crawford hitting so low in the order.

Please follow the discussion in context. The current thread of the discussion is about the merits of hitting Crawford 2nd vs anywhere else based on psychological factors.....meaning, it is a general discussion that would apply to a fully healthy Sox roster.

[ORS]

I never said that we needed to put him 2nd. I said that "by putting him second, you cannot definitively say he wouldn't perform better" because he could be more comfortable at that spot.

 

On April 21st, Ellsbury was hitting .186/.273/.407. Then he got moved to the leadoff role. Since then, he's hit .328/.381/.535. I'm not implying that this was entirely due to him being placed in a slot that he is more used to, which promotes confidence and comfort at the plate, but to say that moving Ellsbury to the top of the order had no impact on his increased production is just ignorant.

 

Some players need to be coddled. I don't hear you griping and crying because Beckett throws to Varitek every outing. Where's your argument that Saltalamacchia is a better hitter and impacts our line up better than Varitek? Is it gone because Beckett has thrown to a 2.50 ERA all season? Yeah. I figured if players perform, you wouldn't bring it up.

Pedroia and Crawford are both career #2 hitters prior to this year.

Pedroia is a better offensive player than Crawford.

Pedroia should hit 2nd.

 

Easy as that. I'm not saying Crawford wouldn't feel better about hitting 2nd/3rd/4th....I'm saying....at the top of his game, he's not better than current options at those spots. Is it that hard to understand?

[Palodios]

Please follow the discussion in context. The current thread of the discussion is about the merits of hitting Crawford 2nd vs anywhere else based on psychological factors.....meaning' date=' it is a general discussion that would apply to a fully healthy Sox roster.[/quote']

 

I don't follow you. Giving him a psychological boost now, while they have a perfectly open spot for him, is atleast worth a shot, isn't it?

[ORS]

I don't follow you. Giving him a psychological boost now' date=' while they have a perfectly open spot for him, is atleast worth a shot, isn't it?[/quote']

I've never said he shouldn't hit 2nd while the roster has injuries that prevent the 1-5 they had earlier.

 

SFF is prattling on about hitting him 2nd after everyone gets back.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Pedroia and Crawford are both career #2 hitters prior to this year.

Pedroia is a better offensive player than Crawford.

Pedroia should hit 2nd.

 

Easy as that. I'm not saying Crawford wouldn't feel better about hitting 2nd/3rd/4th....I'm saying....at the top of his game, he's not better than current options at those spots. Is it that hard to understand?

 

What I don't understand is what I mentioned above. If Crawford feels more comfortable in the 2 slot, puts up a line consistent with what he's done the past 2 years, and the other option is to have him in the 6/7 hole where he puts up a line of .251/.290/.380, then why the hell wouldn't you set your line up to get the most out of that player? Any decrease in production from Pedroia would be nominal, whereas the decrease in production from Crawford is substantial.

[Palodios]

I've never said he shouldn't hit 2nd while the roster has injuries that prevent the 1-5 they had earlier.

 

SFF is prattling on about hitting him 2nd after everyone gets back.

 

SFF didn't mention what he thought would happen when Youk gets back until after I posted my first comment. All he said was that Crawford would get a pyschological boost from putting him second, to which you made the binky comment.

[SoxFanForsyth]

I've never said he shouldn't hit 2nd while the roster has injuries that prevent the 1-5 they had earlier.

 

SFF is prattling on about hitting him 2nd after everyone gets back.

 

I never said that we needed to put him 2nd. I said that "by putting him second' date=' you cannot definitively say he wouldn't perform better" because he could be more comfortable at that spot. [/b']

 

On April 21st, Ellsbury was hitting .186/.273/.407. Then he got moved to the leadoff role. Since then, he's hit .328/.381/.535. I'm not implying that this was entirely due to him being placed in a slot that he is more used to, which promotes confidence and comfort at the plate, but to say that moving Ellsbury to the top of the order had no impact on his increased production is just ignorant.

 

Some players need to be coddled. I don't hear you griping and crying because Beckett throws to Varitek every outing. Where's your argument that Saltalamacchia is a better hitter and impacts our line up better than Varitek? Is it gone because Beckett has thrown to a 2.50 ERA all season? Yeah. I figured if players perform, you wouldn't bring it up.

 

Well the only argument that I have is this - if we're ever going to see if Crawford performed better in a more comfortable role' date=' now is the time to do it. I understand that you never want to mess up with the chemistry, but obviously this season is going bad for Crawford and a lot of it is mental. Right now is the perfect time (since Youk is out) to see if Crawford would perform better out of the 2 slot, if it would give him the confidence he needs.[/b']

 

Everyone always argues that you don't want to mess with the 1-5, but tell me something. What if we move Crawford to the 2 slot and he starts performing like the Carl Crawford we signed? Would you rather have Crawford hitting 2nd, putting up a line of .310/.355/.500, and bump Pedroia to 3, Gonzo to 4, Ortiz to 5, and Youk to 6, or would you rather keep Crawford in the 6 hole and have him hit .265/.310/.380? If you say you'd rather have him 6th, that's ridiculous and completely stubborn/hard headed. Nobody is saying that he would absolutely turn it around if he hit 2nd, but if Youk is out and your regular #2 hitter is now in the 4 slot, why the hell wouldn't you at least try to get one of your premier bats, at least coming into the season, going for the stretch? It makes zero sense not to do that, and worst case scenario instead of having Darnell McDonald go 0-4, you have Carl Crawford go 0-4. Best case? You find out that Carl Crawford is another needy player (just like Beckett) who performs better in certain roles. So you put him in the 2 slot and make it work, just like you throw Beckett to Varitek every outing and make it work.

 

Dude. Do you read my posts? I said now is the time to try it, and if he DOES perform better, then you address the permanent fixture in the lineup.

[Palodios]

What I don't understand is what I mentioned above. If Crawford feels more comfortable in the 2 slot' date=' puts up a line consistent with what he's done the past 2 years, and the other option is to have him in the 6/7 hole where he puts up a line of .[b']251/.290/.380[/b], then why the hell wouldn't you set your line up to get the most out of that player? Any decrease in production from Pedroia would be nominal, whereas the decrease in production from Crawford is substantial.

 

You know what, scratch what I've said. Here are his 2011 stats:

 

Crawford in 6th .292/.315/.455/.769

Crawford in 7th .284/.337/.489/.825

[ORS]

SFF didn't mention what he thought would happen when Youk gets back until after I posted my first comment. All he said was that Crawford would get a pyschological boost from putting him second' date=' to which you made the binky comment.[/quote']

Because it was a general statement, and I, correctly I might add, since he has expanded his commentary, took it to apply to more than the current situation.

 

In other words, I read between the lines, and I was right. It's OK, you can give me credit here.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Because it was a general statement, and I, correctly I might add, since he has expanded his commentary, took it to apply to more than the current situation.

 

In other words, I read between the lines, and I was right. It's OK, you can give me credit here.

 

Clearly you aren't right, because I prefaced almost every comment I made with "I'm not saying to hit him second" or "If we ever want to try to hit him second, now is the time to do it since Youk is out"

 

Maybe you should start reading the actual lines instead of trying to read between them.

[ORS]

What I don't understand is what I mentioned above. If Crawford feels more comfortable in the 2 slot' date=' puts up a line consistent with what he's done the past 2 years, and the other option is to have him in the 6/7 hole where he puts up a line of .251/.290/.380, then why the hell [b']wouldn't[/b] you set your line up to get the most out of that player? Any decrease in production from Pedroia would be nominal, whereas the decrease in production from Crawford is substantial.

Because I don't think where a player hits in the order effects confidence to the level you do. It's as simple as that.

[ORS]

Clearly you aren't right, because I prefaced almost every comment I made with "I'm not saying to hit him second" or "If we ever want to try to hit him second, now is the time to do it since Youk is out"

 

Maybe you should start reading the actual lines instead of trying to read between them.

BS. You expanded your commentary to add that you thought he should continue to hit 2nd if the psychological pixie dust worked and he performed better in the interim until Youkilis got back.

 

I was correct to take your general comment as something that applied to a fully healthy roster, as the expansion of your point has you directly calling for his promotion in the lineup when it is fully healthy.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Because I don't think where a player hits in the order effects confidence to the level you do. It's as simple as that.

 

Fine. And lets say while Youk was on the DL, Crawford hit 2nd and came out and hit .330/.370/.450 for 2 weeks. You wouldn't consider leaving him there and altering the line up? You wouldn't want to take your .250 hitter and turn him into a .310 hitter by moving him to the 2 slot and basically telling him "Hey. We have confidence in you, we know you're better than this. We're going to keep you here so you're comfortable and can keep it going"?

 

You sacrifice what, dropping Pedroia to 3, Gonzo to 4, and Youk to 6? Youk is having a pretty sub-par year anyway, and the guy can't hit on the road all of a sudden. It would be extremely beneficial to at least see what Crawford could do in the 2 slot when you've got your 2 hole hitter in the 4 slot.

[SoxFanForsyth]

BS. You expanded your commentary to add that you thought he should continue to hit 2nd if the psychological pixie dust worked and he performed better in the interim until Youkilis got back.

 

I was correct to take your general comment as something that applied to a fully healthy roster, as the expansion of your point has you directly calling for his promotion in the lineup when it is fully healthy.

 

You really enjoy putting words into peoples mouths and trying to act like you're smarter than everyone. Unfortunately, you're wrong.

 

I said that if Crawford performs substantially better in the 2 slot, then it would be smart to keep him there because it would be better to have a .310 hitter in the 2 hole than a .250 hitter in the 6 hole.

 

I never said "Put him there and keep him there regardless of his production". I'm not exactly sure how you can't comprehend this.

[ORS]

Fine. And lets say while Youk was on the DL, Crawford hit 2nd and came out and hit .330/.370/.450 for 2 weeks. You wouldn't consider leaving him there and altering the line up? You wouldn't want to take your .250 hitter and turn him into a .310 hitter by moving him to the 2 slot and basically telling him "Hey. We have confidence in you, we know you're better than this. We're going to keep you here so you're comfortable and can keep it going"?

 

You sacrifice what, dropping Pedroia to 3, Gonzo to 4, and Youk to 6? Youk is having a pretty sub-par year anyway, and the guy can't hit on the road all of a sudden. It would be extremely beneficial to at least see what Crawford could do in the 2 slot when you've got your 2 hole hitter in the 4 slot.

I agree he should hit 2nd while Youkilis is out. He shouldn't when Youk returns until it becomes very evident that he's a better hitter than Youkilis.

 

BTW, you can throw out hypothetical psycho-babble all day, but I don't have to buy it. If he starts hitting whatever/whatever/whatever, I'm confident that he'll continue to hit whatever/whatever/whatever no matter where he hits in the lineup. If his whatever/whatever/whatever looks like it will be better than a current 1-5 hitter's whatever/whatever/whatever, with a high degree of confidence, then I'm all for promoting him in the lineup.

 

Simple enough?

[ORS]

You really enjoy putting words into peoples mouths and trying to act like you're smarter than everyone. Unfortunately, you're wrong.

 

I said that if Crawford performs substantially better in the 2 slot, then it would be smart to keep him there because it would be better to have a .310 hitter in the 2 hole than a .250 hitter in the 6 hole.

 

I never said "Put him there and keep him there regardless of his production". I'm not exactly sure how you can't comprehend this.

Where do I state this is your position?

 

I've put no words in your mouth.

 

In fact, here is your direct quote...

 

Everyone always argues that you don't want to mess with the 1-5, but tell me something. What if we move Crawford to the 2 slot and he starts performing like the Carl Crawford we signed? Would you rather have Crawford hitting 2nd, putting up a line of .310/.355/.500, and bump Pedroia to 3, Gonzo to 4, Ortiz to 5, and Youk to 6, or would you rather keep Crawford in the 6 hole and have him hit .265/.310/.380? If you say you'd rather have him 6th, that's ridiculous and completely stubborn/hard headed. Nobody is saying that he would absolutely turn it around if he hit 2nd, but if Youk is out and your regular #2 hitter is now in the 4 slot, why the hell wouldn't you at least try to get one of your premier bats, at least coming into the season, going for the stretch? It makes zero sense not to do that, and worst case scenario instead of having Darnell McDonald go 0-4, you have Carl Crawford go 0-4. Best case? You find out that Carl Crawford is another needy player (just like Beckett) who performs better in certain roles. So you put him in the 2 slot and make it work, just like you throw Beckett to Varitek every outing and make it work.

 

And then I state....

 

You expanded your commentary to add that you thought he should continue to hit 2nd if the psychological pixie dust worked and he performed better in the interim until Youkilis got back.

 

This is a correct interpretation of what you've said.

 

I disagree with it.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Where do I state this is your position?

 

I've never said he shouldn't hit 2nd while the roster has injuries that prevent the 1-5 they had earlier.

 

SFF is prattling on about hitting him 2nd after everyone gets back.

 

I said he should hit second pending a substantial improvement. That's all.

 

It almost seems as though we're arguing two different things at this point, though.