The Catcher and SS positions

[ORS]

The improvement might have been delayed' date=' but we would have had a superior catcher in the majors, and the Yankees really would have been suffering at the catching position. Win, win, delayed improvement for Salty. I could live with that.[/quote']

Tough to say so definitively at this point.

 

Seasons are longer than 2 months, and there are more years than this year to prepare for. Hard to say what's better until this plays out.

[Palodios]

The improvement might have been delayed' date=' but we would have had a superior catcher in the majors, and [b']the Yankees really would have been suffering at the catching position. [/b] Win, win, delayed improvement for Salty. I could live with that.

 

I don't know about you, but I'd rather have a broken aging catcher in New York than Montero.

[ORS]

I wouldn't call Martin aging. Broken? Sure, based off of his injury .... and possibily in the future too based on how they are using him. However, he's only 28.

[a700hitter]

Tough to say so definitively at this point.

 

Seasons are longer than 2 months, and there are more years than this year to prepare for. Hard to say what's better until this plays out.

Agreed.

[a700hitter]

I don't know about you' date=' but I'd rather have a broken aging catcher in New York than Montero.[/quote']here's the dirty secret about Montero. He stinks. Maybe he'll be a major league hitter, but he is a terrible catcher, absolutely terrible. The reason why he is not with the Yankees instead of Cervelli (who is a total piece of s***) is that the Yankees do not want Montero to get exposed. He is a Yankee organization media creation-- an overblown prospect that they are hoping will net them a big catch in the trading market.

[Palodios]

here's the dirty secret about Montero. He stinks. Maybe he'll be a major league hitter' date=' but he is a terrible catcher, absolutely terrible. The reason why he is not with the Yankees instead of Cervelli (who is a total piece of s***) is that the Yankees do not want Montero to get exposed. He is a Yankee organization media creation-- an overblown prospect that they are hoping will net them a big catch in the trading market.[/quote']

 

There are plenty of s***-poor defensive catchers out there. But if he can hit like a Mauer/Martinez, who cares?

[Emmz]

Hey, Mauer plays gold glove defense buddy.

[a700hitter]

There are plenty of s***-poor defensive catchers out there. But if he can hit like a Mauer/Martinez' date=' who cares?[/quote']He's really terrible. The defense of Mauer and even VMart is like Johnny Bench compared to Montero.

[Emmz]

Hey hey hey, don't be putting VMart's defense in with Mauer's m'kay.

[Palodios]

Hey' date=' Mauer plays gold glove defense buddy. [/quote']

 

I didn't mean to put down Mauer, I was just talking about elite hitting catchers.

[a700hitter]

Hey hey hey' date=' don't be putting VMart's defense in with Mauer's m'kay.[/quote']Hey, I'm comparing him to Johnny Bench.

[BigPapiEnFuego]

Agreed.

 

How do you go from claiming Martin is "far better than Salty. Not even close." to agreeing that it's only been a short time and it's hard to say what's better until it all plays out?

[Emmz]

http://i52.tinypic.com/w1vioj.jpg

[a700hitter]

How do you go from claiming Martin is "far better than Salty. Not even close." to agreeing that it's only been a short time and it's hard to say what's better until it all plays out?

I am leaving room for the possibility that Martin will break down nad that Salty will improve. When both are healthy, there is no question that Martin is far superior to Salty.

[Palodios]

http://i52.tinypic.com/w1vioj.jpg

 

Where's Jacko when you actually need him

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

I am leaving room for the possibility that Martin will break down nad that Salty will improve. When both are healthy' date=' there is no question that Martin is far superior to Salty[/b'].

 

Back this up with statistics please.

[ORS]

I am leaving room for the possibility that Martin will break down nad that Salty will improve. When both are healthy' date=' there is no question that Martin is far superior to Salty.[/quote']

Right now, in this instant, yes, Martin is better when they are both healthy. But, part of your caveat is that Salty could improve...so, even when they are both healthy, Salty could compare favorably (in the future, which is really what this move was about).

[a700hitter]

Back this up with statistics please.

Check out the first 3 years of Martin's career. When Salty gets to that level, get back to me. It ain't ever going to happen.

[Emmz]

Back this up with statistics please.

 

Eh, I think Salty could become like Martin, but the career averages really, really do favor Martin.

 

For one, Salty has yet to put together a 100 game season, so it's obviously tough to compare due to the sample size differential.

 

Martin has consistently put together 100+ OPS+ seasons, whereas Salty has not one 100+ OPS+ season, and has a career 84 OPS+ to Martin's 102 OPS+.

 

Salty could definitely improve, but so far he hasn't really done it. He's been mediocre to say the least, and even this year he's only got a 96 OPS+.

 

I'd like to think Salty's on the way up, but there's not much to suggest this is anything but a hot streak that he's on right now. His OPS for this month is inflated severely by an unsustainable SLG%.

 

Edit: I'll take what I can get from Salty, I'm not complaining.

[a700hitter]

Right now' date=' in this instant, yes, Martin is better when they are both healthy. But, part of your caveat is that Salty could improve...so, even when they are both healthy, Salty could compare favorably (in the future, which is really what this move was about).[/quote']Except I think Salty's upside still falls markedly short of a healthy Martin.

 

Edit: Plus this wasn't an either or move. They picked up Salty at the 2010 trading deadline. Martin became available afterward. There was no reason no to upgrade and give Salty more seasoning at AAA.

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

Check out the first 3 years of Martin's career. When Salty gets to that level' date=' get back to me. It ain't ever going to happen.[/quote']

 

What makes you so sure? Salty has only played 5 seasons. Martin played at least 100+ more games than Salty in their first 3 years. Obviously Martin is better I don't want to be a homer but you're making Martin to be like Joe Mauer or something.

[a700hitter]

What makes you so sure? Salty has only played 5 seasons. Martin played at least 100+ more games than Salty in their first 3 years. Obviously Martin is better I don't want to be a homer but you're making Martin to be like Joe Mauer or something.

Martin's physical skills are just so far superior to Salty. In the end, with all other things being equal, the talent always tells.

[Palodios]

Healthy RM is a annual All-Star. How can Salty be better than that? The problem is that RM's body has been beaten on pretty hard over the past few years.

[Emmz]

Idk about annual all-star. Maybe because of fan voting, he's still not in league with Mauer or Martinez offensively. His best season is like every year for Mauer and Martinez. Ik I shouldn't be comparing him to the two best offensive catchers right now, but his lifetime OPS+ is still barely over 100. He's not really as good as some people seem to think, it's not outside of Salty's reach IMO.

[a700hitter]

Healthy RM is a annual All-Star. How can Salty be better than that? The problem is that RM's body has been beaten on pretty hard over the past few years.

This is true. Hopefully, Colon will not give him the number of his doctor.

[a700hitter]

Idk about annual all-star. Maybe because of fan voting' date=' he's still not in league with Mauer or Martinez offensively. His best season is like every year for Mauer and Martinez. Ik I shouldn't be comparing him to the two best offensive catchers right now, but his lifetime OPS+ is still barely over 100. He's not really as good as some people seem to think, it's not outside of Salty's reach IMO.[/quote']He has different talents than Mauer or VMart. He's a plus player on offense, but far from Mauer or VMart. He is very fast for a catcher- an excellent baserunner, and he has a very strong arm.

[Emmz]

He has different talents than Mauer or VMart. He's a plus player on offense' date=' but far from Mauer or VMart. He is very fast for a catcher- an excellent baserunner, and he has a very strong arm.[/quote']

 

I'm speaking strictly offensively, it's not that much of a stretch to say Salty could get over 100 OPS+. I said nothing of their defensive values or arm strength, because quite frankly, Mauer has all that on them too

[Palodios]

Funny, both Salty and Martin are out of tonight's game.

[SoxSport]

Martin and Salty are catchers with entirely separate issues. Martin's health and ability to sustain a full season at catcher is an issue. The other is his hitting deterioration the past few seasons. He started well this season hitting a bunch of HRs like a lot of other Yankees, but has tailed off his hitting lately. We'll see how durable he is. His signing was a $4-5mm gamble--chump change in NY.

 

Salty has yet to prove himself as a major league catcher. He was given a lot of visibility early--probably too much--and struggled a bit. But lately he has been showing signs of putting it all together. He looked good defensively last night behind the plate, and he has been hitting. He is one big athletic guy, still young, and could break out to be the player he was projected to be.

[Emmz]

Yeah, but the difference is that Salty's been hitting well for a month, sample size is waaaayyyy too small to even say that he might become the player he was projected to be. Martin put up solid (for a catcher at least) offensive numbers for entire seasons until his last two.