The Official 2010 Hot Stove Thread.

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

Lee Smith should be in the Hall of Fame. Hoffman will most assuredly get in.

 

Off topic but i just saw your signature. Golf is not a sport. It is an activity.

[SoxSport]

Rivera pitches for the Yankees. He has won how many rings? That's a big advantage. Besides, NY is sports mediatown. Another advantage.

[Dojji]

Hoffmann doesn't have to match Rivera to be a Hall of Famer. It would have helped if he' been a more common sight in the playoffs though. A closer without a ring is a tougher sell than a starter without a ring. But I think he still gets in. Saves is a stat that gets paid attentntion to, and all-time leader in a category like that is something to hand your hat on.

[BigPapiEnFuego]

I never understood how having rings would help a player get into the hall of fame.

[Dojji]

Winning the World Series has no impact on hall of fame status IYHO?

 

I'm not talking about it like it's a negative thing. It's more about the absence of a positive.

[BigPapiEnFuego]

Yeah to me it doesn't. I see that as an overall team thing and not as an indication of how good a player was. I wouldn't even consider rings if I had a HOF vote.

[BSN07]

Hoffmann doesn't have to match Rivera to be a Hall of Famer. It would have helped if he' been a more common sight in the playoffs though. A closer without a ring is a tougher sell than a starter without a ring. But I think he still gets in. Saves is a stat that gets paid attentntion to' date=' and all-time leader in a category like that is something to hand your hat on.[/quote']

 

He won't be the leader by the time he is eligible for the HOF.

[Palodios]

When it comes to guys who've been closers their entire career, there are only three stats that means anything. Saves, blown saves, and the save percentage that those two create. WHIP, ERA, FIP, whatever you want to look at... they are completely irrelevant. A closer's goal is to come into the game and survive the inning. He can let as many guys on base or to home plate as he wants, as long as they come away with a W. 89% is about as good as you're going to get.

[Dipre]

That's absolutely asinine. Saves, by themselves, are not even close to indicative of how dominant a pitcher is. If you're going to sit there and tell me that Mariano Rivera's ability to not allow runners to score and keep runners of the bases is not part of his resume as it pertains to his HOF candidacy, you live in Mars. Furthermore, voters do look at peripherals, because they should, since save% by itself is not indicative of dominance, which is what they look for in any pitcher.

 

Even worse, if you're a shaky closer giving up runs and baserunners left and right, you're not going to be a closer for long, defeating the very purpose of that statement.

[jacksonianmarch]

Rivera pitches for the Yankees. He has won how many rings? That's a big advantage. Besides' date=' NY is sports mediatown. Another advantage.[/quote']

 

And Rivera is the most dominant reliever of all time. That helps too

[Palodios]

That's absolutely asinine. Saves' date=' by themselves, are not even close to indicative of how dominant a pitcher is. [/quote']

 

He is a closer. He is not a starter. He is not a middle reliever. He serves one purpose, and one purpose alone. There is no arguing this. In SSS, sure, peripherals and advanced statistics mean something. Over a career, they do not. Obviously they are things that get looked at, but Hoffman's 88.8% is the most important thing on his resume, because that's insanely close to Rivera's.

[BigPapiEnFuego]

He is a closer. He is not a starter. He is not a middle reliever. He serves one purpose' date=' and one purpose alone. There is no arguing this. In SSS, sure, peripherals and advanced statistics mean something. Over a career, they do not.[/quote']

 

Well then by the logic you have starters should only have Wins losses and winloss percentage looked at and middle relievers should only have holds looked at.

 

come on man

[Palodios]

Wins rely on run production,relief pitching, and the opposing starter. Saves do not. That comparison is not even close.

[Dipre]

So wait, you're arguing that over a career, which in a full-time closer's case, can cover over 1,000 IP (5-7 seasons for a starter) said closer's peripherals, which would not be a SSS, but rather a very significant sample size, don't matter? I think i may just develop an aneurysm.

 

You pretty much just said that Roberto Hernandez' career is comparable to Rollie Fingers'.

 

Peripherals matter, and voters look at them, if they didn't, Bert Blyleven wouldn't have been inducted into the HOF. What you're saying makes as much sense as making steak-flavored ice cream.

[BigPapiEnFuego]

Wins rely on run production' date='relief pitching, and the opposing starter. Saves do not. That comparison is not even close.[/quote']

 

Holy s***. loll

 

 

...And saves rely on the starter, offensive production, and relief pitching. How the hell do saves not?

 

Sorry but you'd have to be an idiot to think things like WHIP and ERA don't matter in a closer. You really think someone with a high WHIP and high ERA is gonna be a dominant closer? They aren't. Anyone who's watched baseball for 2 months and has a basic understand of these simple stats could figure this s*** out

[Palodios]

So you're saying that you'd rather a closer with a pile of great peripherals to a closer who actually got his job done? That's silly.

[Dipre]

Name me one closer with s***** peripherals who has been a dominant closer over his career and i'll give you 10 which have had great peripherals who have been dominant throughout their careers.

 

Every one of the top-ten leaders in saves have been guys with very good peripherals, and guys like Todd Jones and Roberto Hernandez had fantastic numbers for a significant stretch of their career but tailed off towards the end.

 

It's not even debatable.

[BigPapiEnFuego]

I would think having good peripherals would go hand in hand with getting the job done...

 

And I think plenty of GM's would agree. Infact, i'm 99% sure that's what they would look at when trying to sign a closer.

[Palodios]

BigPapi, We're not talking about signing a closer. We're talking about looking at how a closer did throughout his career.

 

Dipre, I wasn't suggesting that bad peripheral elite closers are common, or even that they exist at all.

[Spudboy]

Steak flavored ice cream?

 

Why not?

 

In Japan, they have octopus flavored ice cream.

 

Of course that is a country that does not allow close-ups of genital penetration while allowing scenes of vaginal and anal penetration involving squid, octopus, eels, etc.

 

Carry on.

[Dojji]

Name me one closer with s***** peripherals who has been a dominant closer over his career and i'll give you 10 which have had great peripherals who have been dominant throughout their careers.

 

Every one of the top-ten leaders in saves have been guys with very good peripherals, and guys like Todd Jones and Roberto Hernandez had fantastic numbers for a significant stretch of their career but tailed off towards the end.

 

It's not even debatable.

 

 

But I could number you a hundred setup men with great peripherals, some of them as good as the closers, and none of them will sniff the hall. The closers get attention because of Saves. You can call it right. You can call it wrong. I call it accurate.

[bsox0407]

http://i953.photobucket.com/albums/ae11/bsox0407/2q96-thumb-640x480-30518.jpg

 

Depressing sight but reminder 26 more days til Truck Day.

[SoxSport]

The Yankees finally signed Soriano, as I predicted. 3 years at $11 mil per. And he can opt out after year 1 and year 2. They are paying him a king's ransom to setup (how much after the luxury tax penalty?), and he still has them over a barrel with opt-out options.

 

So what does that mean for top setup guys now? Is the bar raised to $11 mil? The Yankees are doin' what comes naturally, and the rest of Baseball grimaces.

[WhiskeyBreath]

The Yankees finally signed Soriano, as I predicted. 3 years at $11 mil per. And he can opt out after year 1 and year 2. They are paying him a king's ransom to setup (how much after the luxury tax penalty?), and he still has them over a barrel with opt-out options.

 

So what does that mean for top setup guys now? Is the bar raised to $11 mil? The Yankees are doin' what comes naturally, and the rest of Baseball grimaces.

 

No.

[jacksonianmarch]

The Yankees are paying him closer money because they eventually think he will be closing games in NY. Also, seeing as our rotation took a hit with Pettitte leaving, we cannot afford to be losing 8th inning leads like we did last yr. This time around, 90-95% of our 7th inning leads will be wins. That's huge

[Dipre]

But I could number you a hundred setup men with great peripherals' date=' some of them as good as the closers, and none of them will sniff the hall. The closers get attention because of Saves. You can call it right. You can call it wrong. I call it accurate.[/quote']

 

And this where (as usual) i call you out on reading comprehension issues.

 

The discussion here isn't about Hall worthiness itself, but how good peripherals and effectiveness relate to one another. Try to keep up.

 

It's not very difficult to understand that there is currently one relief pitcher who is a lock for the HOF, and his name is Mariano, everyone else simply has "a shot", be it really good (Hoffman, Wagner) or long (many others).

[Ravenous916]

Hoffman is getting in. I'd say hes a lock.

[SoxSport]

Back to Soriano, this doesn't look like a Cashman move, rather a desperation effort to make up for the loss of Lee and, apparently, Pettite, who has civil concerns on his hands with the Clemens trial.

 

The Yankees got cornered into paying a guy to setup what other teams wouldn't pay him to close. And with two player opt-outs to boot.

 

Can you imagine any other team making a deal like this? It just points out the disparity between the Yankees and everybody else.

 

And as for Papelbon, say goodbye to him after this season. He won't be tendered, and Bard or Jenks will be the next closer. The Red Sox won't pay that much dough to a closer--much less a setup guy.

[jacksonianmarch]

I highly doubt Soriano actually opts out. He gets closer money to be a setup man and then is the heir apparent to the most glamorous relief job in sports. Especially since the Yankees would probably be the only franchise with 2 HOFers coming out of their closers role and the best of all time exiting that role.

 

That being said, I do not think this was a desperation move. If it was a desperation move, they would have set a new precedent for relievers with him. Instead, they actually paid less for Soriano than the Mets did for KRod, even though KRod was declining stuff wise going into FA. Now I know he isnt closing, but our rotation isnt getting fixed overnight, and if our middle relief wasnt stellar then we could hand the division to the Red Sox in April. Yankee games are now 7 innings long. With our offense and with CC, Hughes, and AJ, we should be in most games. If the game is close going into the late innings, there is a much better chance the Yanks are winning with Soriano than without him. It's a calculated move. We wanted Lee. He would have made Soriano moot since he and CC regularly would hand the ball off the Mo. But with one guy in the rotation capable of acting as his own relief corps, we didnt have that option. We still need another starter. I am cool with Nova in the 5 role, I think he will be much better than anyone thinks. But we cannot have Mitre or another rookie in the 4 role. We need one more. Soriano lessens the blow significantly, but without another starter, we're still starting the yr with a handicap

[Dipre]

Didn't see this mentioned anywhere, so:

 

This is from Boston.com by the way.

 

1. Jacoby Ellsbury, CF, Red Sox — The day has come. Ellsbury (left) received news last week that he’s 100 percent recovered from his rib ailments. The latest MRI taken by Dr. Lewis Yocum gave Ellsbury the all-clear. He is currently working out at Athletes Performance in Arizona along with Ryan Kalish.

 

2. Jarrod Saltalamacchia, C, Red Sox — He is very excited about the progress he’s made in offseason workouts with Sox catching instructor Gary Tuck and with the recovery of his surgically repaired right thumb. “Thumb feels great,’’ Saltalamacchia said. “Can’t wait to get going.’’

 

Curt Young, pitching coach, Red Sox — At the team’s rookie development program next week, he and Terry Francona will begin discussing some of the things Young would like to do with pitchers both in spring training and through the season. Francona indicated he is open to Young tweaking the way the staff had been run under John Farrell.

 

(Insta-boner for Palodios.)

 

6. Daisuke Matsuzaka, RHP, Boston — He told a Japanese sports website that he feels part of his problem the past two years was that his lower-body strength paled in comparison to his upper-body strength. In the future, Matsuzaka said, he needs to work “70 percent lower body, 20 percent upper body, and 10 percent shoulder. Up until now, it’s been 50/50. Last couple of years, I felt my upper body was getting ahead of my lower body. So now I need to start working on my lower body earlier on.’’ He said his body never felt in synch all last season.