Cameron or Jacoby in center field?

[riverside sluggers]

While granted, its 12 games into the season... Cameron's range, speed and glove work has been eratic at best. Id be very surprised if Jacoby is still the starting left fielder by season's end

 

Discuss.

[TheMino007]

I'd rather have Bay in LF and Ellsbury in CF

[Dipre]

I'd rather have Bay in LF and Ellsbury in CF

 

Give me Lackey plz.

[Gom]

You could have had Bay instead of Cameron and Lowell.

[Dipre]

You could have had Bay instead of Cameron and Lowell.

 

 

You know eating Lowell's salary automatically puts the Sox over the salary cap. You keep choosing to ignore the facts while making this kind of illogical statements.

[Gom]

You know eating Lowell's salary automatically puts the Sox over the salary cap. You keep choosing to ignore the facts while making this kind of illogical statements.

 

Meant Cameron and Beltre.

[Dipre]

Meant Cameron and Beltre.

 

Elaborate on how the Sox were going to fit Bay's 17 million salary into their payroll without exceeding salary cap.

[rhet]

Cameron is the worst CF on the Red Sox since Wily Mo Pena tried to play there.

 

Another mistake by the GM.

[Dipre]

Cameron is the worst CF on the Red Sox since Wily Mo Pena tried to play there.

 

Another mistake by the GM.

 

On April 18th.

 

*sigh*

[Gom]

Elaborate on how the Sox were going to fit Bay's 17 million salary into their payroll without exceeding salary cap.

 

He's only making 6.5 million this year, so the payroll would have even been lower than it is now.

 

However, if you really need someone to do the math for you....

 

Bay: 16.5 million

 

Cameron: 7.25 million

Beltre: 9 Million

 

So...yeah, you would have saved a ton of money. 250K.

 

So would you rather have had Bay and Lowell, or Cameron, Beltre and 250K? What was obvious to me is only dawning on you guys now.

[riverside sluggers]

He's only making 6.5 million this year, so the payroll would have even been lower than it is now.

 

However, if you really need someone to do the math for you....

 

Bay: 16.5 million

 

Cameron: 7.25 million

Beltre: 9 Million

 

So...yeah, you would have saved a ton of money. 250K.

 

So would you rather have had Bay and Lowell, or Cameron, Beltre and 250K? What was obvious to me is only dawning on you guys now.

 

Again. The Sox first tried to make a deal with Bay. They offered 4 years/$60 million. He declined... so they offered 5 years/$82.5 million to one Matt Holliday, he and his agent Scott Boras declined that.... So they used that money toward John Lackey!

[Dipre]

He's only making 6.5 million this year, so the payroll would have even been lower than it is now.

 

However, if you really need someone to do the math for you....

 

Bay: 16.5 million

 

Cameron: 7.25 million

Beltre: 9 Million

 

So...yeah, you would have saved a ton of money. 250K.

 

So would you rather have had Bay and Lowell, or Cameron, Beltre and 250K? What was obvious to me is only dawning on you guys now.

 

Did you know that for salary cap purposes, AAV is used?

 

Try again, master of math.

[italstallianion]

He's only making 6.5 million this year, so the payroll would have even been lower than it is now.

 

However, if you really need someone to do the math for you....

 

Bay: 16.5 million

 

Cameron: 7.25 million

Beltre: 9 Million

 

So...yeah, you would have saved a ton of money. 250K.

 

So would you rather have had Bay and Lowell, or Cameron, Beltre and 250K? What was obvious to me is only dawning on you guys now.

 

 

 

That's also flawed because you're assuming that Bay would have been with us for the same amount of money that he is currently being paid in NY. In addition to what Dipre said.

[rhet]

On April 18th.

 

*sigh*

 

Yeah, some of us can tell right away the guy can't field anymore. Put me at my old SS position and you too could probably tell I can't pick it like I did when I was 20. You wouldn't have to wait til August.

[Dipre]

Yeah' date=' some of us can tell right away the guy can't field anymore. Put me at my old SS position and you too could probably tell I can't pick it like I did when I was 20. You wouldn't have to wait til August.[/quote']

 

Yeah, i guess i should watch the games more.

[yankees228]

That's also flawed because you're assuming that Bay would have been with us for the same amount of money that he is currently being paid in NY. In addition to what Dipre said.

 

Wouldn't Bay have signed if they gave him the fifth year?

[example1]

Hey folks, it's April. Settle down a bit. The Yankees and Rays are really good teams and they have both started off looking like really good teams. The Sox may not catch them this year, but with 140+ games remaining I'm hesitant to say they won't. And, frankly, if they don't catch them I'm still not willing to say they aren't possibly the 3rd best team in the AL. That's just the way s*** goes.

 

As for Cameron, give him some time. Nobody would be saying this s*** if he hadn't made that horrible error that cost them the game last night. I'm not excusing the error, just saying that I never imagined he would go a whole season without some errors. Time. Give it time.

[MANNYHOF24]

Isn't it great how in a year in a half we have gone from a hall of fame left fielder to a Mike Cameron? Good job front office.

[rhet]

Yeah' date=' i guess i should watch the games more.[/quote']

 

...objectively.

[riverside sluggers]

Hey folks, it's April. Settle down a bit. The Yankees and Rays are really good teams and they have both started off looking like really good teams. The Sox may not catch them this year, but with 140+ games remaining I'm hesitant to say they won't. And, frankly, if they don't catch them I'm still not willing to say they aren't possibly the 3rd best team in the AL. That's just the way s*** goes.

 

As for Cameron, give him some time. Nobody would be saying this s*** if he hadn't made that horrible error that cost them the game last night. I'm not excusing the error, just saying that I never imagined he would go a whole season without some errors. Time. Give it time.

 

Actually Ive been noticing this since the opening season series. Not me jumping the gun because of last nights error

[Dipre]

...objectively.

 

To know what objectivity is, a measure of non knee-jerkitis would be required. Get that treated then get back to me.

[rhet]

Actually Ive been noticing this since the opening season series. Not me jumping the gun because of last nights error

 

Yes, everything hit to CF this season has been an adventure.

 

Nobody needs to wait til August to admit it.

[rhet]

To know what objectivity is' date=' a measure of non knee-jerkitis would be required. Get that treated then get back to me.[/quote']

 

Can't you discuss the game and players without being such a dink?

[Dipre]

Can't you discuss the game and players without being such a dink?

 

You called out my objectivity. "If you want to be treated like a grown-up, act like one", old-timers always say.

[jacksonianmarch]

Did you know that for salary cap purposes, AAV is used?

 

Try again, master of math.

 

Beltre is at 9 mil AAV since his option is a player option for 2011. Options are not included in AAV

[jacksonianmarch]

In RS's defense, Cameron has really looked poor in CF. It will probably pass once he learns the monster a bit, but he has made that game killing error and missed at least 2 balls that should have been caught in CF, that he pulled up on. Also, Ellsbury looks a bit lost in LF as well. This will probably blow over once they learn the monster at their positions, but I do not disagree with the early returns on Cameron here

[Dipre]

Beltre is at 9 mil AAV since his option is a player option for 2011. Options are not included in AAV

 

Once the Red Sox completed the deals for Marco Scutaro (2 years, $12.5 million), John Lackey (5 years, $82.5 million) and Mike Cameron (2 years, $15.5 million), their budget for 2010 appeared just about tapped. When the team suggested that it was prepared to enter the season with Casey Kotchman as its starting first baseman, it was more than idle chatter – with the team scraping against the luxury tax threshold of $170 million for next year, and with a record payroll under contract, the team seemed to have almost no room to maneuver, barring a budget stretch for an affordable superstar like Adrian Gonzalez.

 

Yet a harmonic convergence of sorts occurred in order to bring Adrian Beltre to Boston. Over the holidays, the Sox positioned themselves to add another Gold Glove-caliber defender (when healthy) while barely making a mark against the salary cap.

 

The third baseman volunteered to come to Boston on what one talent evaluator described as a “perfect contract,” a deal that was both affordable and short-term in nature as well as structured in a way to minimize the luxury tax hit. The one-year, $9 million framework represented a relative bargain — a contract that was millions less than what Beltre would have earned had he accepted Seattle’s offer of salary arbitration, and the sort of short-term arrangement that will minimize the Sox’ risk.

 

The $5 million player option for 2011, meanwhile, is in all likelihood cosmetic. Barring a career-threatening injury, there’s almost no way that the player exercises it, given that Beltre just came off of a season in which a) his offensive productivity was the worst of his career thanks to bone spurs in his shoulder that required surgery; he played in the fewest games of his career as a result both of that surgery and an injury to his testicle; and c) he still had the chance to choose between the one-year, $9 million deal with the Sox and, according to FoxSports.com, multiple three-year, $24 million offers. Put simply, the chances that he exercises the player option are virtually nil.

The impact of the player option, however, is that it depresses the average annual value (AAV) of the contract, which determines the value of a contract in calculating luxury tax. So, the Beltre contract is viewed as being worth $7 million, rather than $9 million, in calculating the Sox’ 2010 payroll for luxury tax purposes.

 

Even then, however, the Sox would not have been able to afford to sign Beltre while remaining in their budget. The team still needed to free more payroll in order to minimize its luxury tax hit, since the Sox must pay 22.5 percent on every payroll dollar they spend over $170 million next year.

 

That being the case, the Sox sought salary relief by moving Kotchman. Without Beltre, the Sox wouldn’t have moved the 26-year-old first baseman; at the same time, without being able to move Kotchman, Sox sources say that the club could not have signed Beltre.

 

The arbitration eligible first baseman, after making $2.885 million in 2009, was likely to earn roughly $3.5 million for 2010. By moving him to the Mariners, the net impact of signing Beltre — from a luxury tax standpoint — dropped to about $3.5 million.

 

But the Sox also structured their deal with the Mariners both to address a need for a bench player and to offer further relief against the luxury tax. The inclusion of the versatile Bill Hall and millions of dollars in cash (along with a player to be named from a list of minor leaguers) will offer the Sox further relief.

 

Hall is in the last guaranteed year of a four-year, $24 million deal that will pay him $8.4 million next season. The Mariners, according to a major-league source, will pay $7.5-8 million of his salary — essentially sending the Sox the same money that was given to Seattle by the Brewers when the M’s acquired Hall last summer.

 

Hall’s contract is evaluated for luxury tax purposes as being worth $6 million in 2010, based on its AAV. But the full amount of the cash transfer — call it $7.5 million — will be deducted from the Sox’ payroll as determined for luxury tax purposes. That being the case, Hall will actually reduce the Sox’ payroll in calculating the competitive balance tax by roughly $1.5 million dollars. Overall, then, the Sox were able to sign Beltre and add Hall and a player to be named at a cost (for CBT purposes) of roughly $2 million in 2010.

 

$7 million (AAV of Beltre’s contract)

-$3.5 million (AAV of Kotchman’s likely contract)

+$6 million (AAV of Hall’s contract)

-$7.5 million (cash transfer from Seattle to Boston)

 

=$2 million

 

That math explains how the final shaping of the Red Sox roster took place without blowing out the team’s payroll projections.

 

http://fullcount.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/2010/01/06/creative-red-sox-accounting-101-beltre-kotchman-hall/

 

In RS's defense' date=' Cameron has really looked poor in CF. It will probably pass once he learns the monster a bit, but he has made that game killing error and missed at least 2 balls that should have been caught in CF, that he pulled up on. Also, Ellsbury looks a bit lost in LF as well. This will probably blow over once they learn the monster at their positions, but I do not disagree with the early returns on Cameron here[/quote']

 

But not enough to call the Cameron signing a bust and one of "Theo's blunders". It's April 18th.

[jacksonianmarch]

That must have changed recently. They never used to calculate options into AAV, mostly because the options at the end of contracts were ridiculous.

[Dipre]

The only way for the Sox to have acquired both Bay and Lackey without breaking luxury tax was to find a team that could swallow at least half of Lowell's contract (Tried and failed) and then turn around and sign Bay for 4/60 while signing Beltre to the same contract he ended up signing with the Sox.

 

This is how it actually happened: $43 million.

 

Lackey:16.5 million

 

Cameron: 7.5 million

 

Beltre: 7 million

 

Lowell: 12 million

 

This is how it would have had to happen: $44.5 million. Considering the Sox didn't want to keep Lowell at 3B:

 

Lackey: 16.5 million

 

Bay: 15 million

 

Beltre: 7 million

 

Lowell: 6 million

[yankees228]

The only way for the Sox to have acquired both Bay and Lackey without breaking luxury tax was to find a team that could swallow at least half of Lowell's contract (Tried and failed) and then turn around and sign Bay for 4/60 while signing Beltre to the same contract he ended up signing with the Sox.

 

This is how it actually happened: $43 million.

 

Lackey:16.5 million

 

Cameron: 7.5 million

 

Beltre: 7 million

 

Lowell: 12 million

 

This is how it would have had to happen: $44.5 million. Considering the Sox didn't want to keep Lowell at 3B:

 

Lackey: 16.5 million

 

Bay: 15 million

 

Beltre: 7 million

 

Lowell: 6 million

 

Right, but I think Gom is saying that they should have kept Lowell at third base, and not signed Beltre. I think this is a sentiment that other fans would share, although I'm not saying I agree with it.