What Happens with Lowell?

[SoxSport]

Tex is a bitch who wears the skirt in the relationship with his wife. Sox could have offered 3 more million a year and he still would have signed with the Yankees because he has no balls.

 

When the Yankees want a player, they just offer him more than anybody else can afford.

They blew Sabathia away with an absurd offer nobody else would come close to. They got Teixiera because the Red Sox know it's futile to compete with them for a player--especially when Boras is the agent. The problem with this is it raises the bar for all teams in the free agent market. That's why a cap is needed. You can't have the richest team raising the bar for everybody else.

[yankees228]

When the Yankees want a player, they just offer him more than anybody else can afford.

They blew Sabathia away with an absurd offer nobody else would come close to. They got Teixiera because the Red Sox know it's futile to compete with them for a player--especially when Boras is the agent. The problem with this is it raises the bar for all teams in the free agent market. That's why a cap is needed. You can't have the richest team raising the bar for everybody else.

 

Yup, any player the Yankees have ever wanted (since they've had the highest payroll in the league), they just offered more money than anyone can afford, and got him. Right on SoxSport, really accurate.

[yankees228]

Actually, I'm past the point of using sarcasm. You might be right that baseball needs a salary cap, but your two main points are absolutely incorrect.

 

There are plenty of players, over the past decade, that the Yankees have had varying degrees of interest in but didn't end up signing. This happened for one of two reasons (or a combination of both). Either that player's salary demands exceeded how much money the Yankees' could spend, or the Yankees felt that the player's salary demands were above how much he was worth.

 

Additionally, while the Yankees have given out some huge contracts, they typically aren't credited with giving out the landmark contract to a position player, or the landmark contract to a pitcher (over the past decade).

 

EDIT: The Yankees enjoy an advantage that no one else does, and it helps them win. There is no question about it, and it's something I readily acknowledge. However, lets not overstate this advantage to an infinite degree. It simply isn't factual.

[Gom]

You were obviously there during negotiations. Oh wait' date=' you weren't! You're just running your mouth![/quote']

No, I can read. Try it some time. Here, let me help you.

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ge-redsoxteixeira121808

 

Read the first line. Basically, the Yankees signed him for 1.125 million a year more than the Red Sox offered...or basically...approximately what it would cost you for 2 months of Hermidia.

 

Now about Damon...

 

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2005/12/21/damon_jumps_to_yankees/

 

Go to paragraph eight. The Yankees offered $3 million per year more for Damon. I love this article...seeing how the Red Sox FO cried that they weren't given a chance to counter. You went and got Coco Crisp for a little over $5 million per for 3 years...or two million dollars more than it would have cost to keep Damon. We know how that one worked out.

 

Both of these articles were written by Edes of the Boston Globe.

 

I will say this...your fantasy teams perform better than you do.

[jacksonianmarch]

Actually, I'm past the point of using sarcasm. You might be right that baseball needs a salary cap, but your two main points are absolutely incorrect.

 

There are plenty of players, over the past decade, that the Yankees have had varying degrees of interest in but didn't end up signing. This happened for one of two reasons (or a combination of both). Either that player's salary demands exceeded how much money the Yankees' could spend, or the Yankees felt that the player's salary demands were above how much he was worth.

 

Additionally, while the Yankees have given out some huge contracts, they typically aren't credited with giving out the landmark contract to a position player, or the landmark contract to a pitcher (over the past decade).

 

EDIT: The Yankees enjoy an advantage that no one else does, and it helps them win. There is no question about it, and it's something I readily acknowledge. However, lets not overstate this advantage to an infinite degree. It simply isn't factual.

 

Exactly, well put. NY had its payrolls in the 200+ mil range, but were getting second tier guys at above normal prices. I was upset when they shirked Vlad Guerrero for Gary Sheffield. When they didnt get RJ and instead went with Carl Pavano and Jaret Wright. I find it strange that the team with the most money chose 2 B level players instead of one A level player and maybe a B- player. That all stopped once they signed Tex and CC. Those guys are franchise players, in their prime and they decided not to pass on them and go the second tier route. It won them a championship. And with the farm system able to fill the holes with some B- level players who could turn into A's, that opens up the yankee checkbooks to sign A level performers to fill the holes.

[Dipre]

No, I can read. Try it some time. Here, let me help you.

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ge-redsoxteixeira121808

 

Read the first line. Basically, the Yankees signed him for 1.125 million a year more than the Red Sox offered...or basically...approximately what it would cost you for 2 months of Hermidia.

 

Now about Damon...

 

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2005/12/21/damon_jumps_to_yankees/

 

Go to paragraph eight. The Yankees offered $3 million per year more for Damon. I love this article...seeing how the Red Sox FO cried that they weren't given a chance to counter. You went and got Coco Crisp for a little over $5 million per for 3 years...or two million dollars more than it would have cost to keep Damon. We know how that one worked out.

 

Both of these articles were written by Edes of the Boston Globe.

 

I will say this...your fantasy teams perform better than you do.

 

*Yawn*

 

Edes is working based on pure conjecture, just like you do. I'm now waiting for an article on framing pitches by him.

 

The sox put a value on players, in both cases, the Yankees exceeded said value, and the Sox weren't willing to go into a bidding war with the Yanks which they were obviously going to lose, because, unlike you, they use, you know, logic.

[ORS]

Exactly' date=' well put. NY had its payrolls in the 200+ mil range, but were getting second tier guys at above normal prices. I was upset when they shirked Vlad Guerrero for Gary Sheffield. When they didnt get RJ and instead went with Carl Pavano and Jaret Wright. I find it strange that the team with the most money chose 2 B level players instead of one A level player and maybe a B- player. That all stopped once they signed Tex and CC. Those guys are franchise players, in their prime and they decided not to pass on them and go the second tier route. It won them a championship. And with the farm system able to fill the holes with some B- level players who could turn into A's, that opens up the yankee checkbooks to sign A level performers to fill the holes.[/quote']

Was 2004 so tough on you that you've blacked out everything that happened? They didn't choose Pavano and Wright over RJ, they got all three.

 

EDIT: Oh, and Sheffield was the runner up for MVP in the year Vlad won it. It wasn't sacrafice that cost the Yankees, as you are apparently trying to portray it.

[jacksonianmarch]

Whoa, big blunder there. My bad.

[rhet]

Lowell made a great play last night. I thought you said he couldn't bend over anymore.

[boomer]

Lowell made a great play last night. I thought you said he couldn't bend over anymore.

 

Mikie is always full of surprises... Remember he was just a throw in on the beckett deal cause of his contract, In his years in Boston you couldnt ask for anymore and He still plays the game hard even if its every 5th game.

The guy deserves to start and for Tex eff em. overpaid anyways :harhar:

[yankees228]

Was 2004 so tough on you that you've blacked out everything that happened? They didn't choose Pavano and Wright over RJ, they got all three.

 

EDIT: Oh, and Sheffield was the runner up for MVP in the year Vlad won it. It wasn't sacrafice that cost the Yankees, as you are apparently trying to portray it.

 

It might not have been a sacrifice that cost the Yankees in 2004, but it was something that cost them in subsequent years.

[yankees228]

*Yawn*

 

Edes is working based on pure conjecture, just like you do. I'm now waiting for an article on framing pitches by him.

 

The sox put a value on players, in both cases, the Yankees exceeded said value, and the Sox weren't willing to go into a bidding war with the Yanks which they were obviously going to lose, because, unlike you, they use, you know, logic.

 

I have a hard time believing the last part of this. Sure, the Yankees offered money that exceeded the value that the Red Sox were willing to offer, but the Yankees don't get every player that they're interested in. There are players that the Yankees have made actual offers to, but once the money either exceeded how much they believed the player's value to be, or once the money exceeded their available funds, they chose not to increase their offer.

 

Yes, there are times when the Yankees do everything they can to get a player (Sabathia). However, you cannot claim that once the Yankees get involved in a player he automatically goes to the Yankees, because it simply isn't true.

[Dipre]

I have a hard time believing the last part of this. Sure, the Yankees offered money that exceeded the value that the Red Sox were willing to offer, but the Yankees don't get every player that they're interested in. There are players that the Yankees have made actual offers to, but once the money either exceeded how much they believed the player's value to be, or once the money exceeded their available funds, they chose not to increase their offer.

 

Yes, there are times when the Yankees do everything they can to get a player (Sabathia). However, you cannot claim that once the Yankees get involved in a player he automatically goes to the Yankees, because it simply isn't true.

 

Name me one player the Yankees and Red Sox have both tried to acquire that has gone to the Red Sox in the last decade (Daisuke being the notable exception given the nature of the negotiations.)

 

When the Yankees want a player, they get him, they overpay if they have to, and you can multiply that by two if the player is also on the Sox' radar. Can't see any grounds where you can dispute that.

[Gom]

*Yawn*

 

Edes is working based on pure conjecture, just like you do. I'm now waiting for an article on framing pitches by him.

 

The sox put a value on players, in both cases, the Yankees exceeded said value, and the Sox weren't willing to go into a bidding war with the Yanks which they were obviously going to lose, because, unlike you, they use, you know, logic.

 

Ok, so then everything anyone says is conjecture..until it's done. So basically, anything anyone says when it comes to the Hot Stove is ********. It doesn't matter who they are, as long as it's not something you'd like to believe, it's ********.

 

I get it.

 

Dipre trumps Edes when it comes to reporting to the Red Sox. Thanks for clearing it up. I feel relieved now.

[Dipre]

Ok, so then everything anyone says is conjecture..until it's done. So basically, anything anyone says when it comes to the Hot Stove is ********. It doesn't matter who they are, as long as it's not something you'd like to believe, it's ********.

 

I get it.

 

Dipre trumps Edes when it comes to reporting to the Red Sox. Thanks for clearing it up. I feel relieved now.

 

Ah, the usual strawman. Well done Gom.

 

See, unless you have some actual concrete evidence (which neither you, nor Edes, nor me have) of the way the negotiations went down, that is exactly what it is. ********.

[yankees228]

Name me one player the Yankees and Red Sox have both tried to acquire that has gone to the Red Sox in the last decade (Daisuke being the notable exception given the nature of the negotiations.)

 

When the Yankees want a player, they get him, they overpay if they have to, and you can multiply that by two if the player is also on the Sox' radar. Can't see any grounds where you can dispute that.

 

You're right, there aren't any players that the Yankees and the Red Sox have both made substantial offers to that the Yankees haven't ended up signing. However, there are three things to consider...

 

1) There are players that the Yankees have shown interest in that ended up signing with the Red Sox.

 

2) There are players that the Yankees have actually been in contract negotiations with that ended up signing with other teams, for reasons I've already mentioned in two separate posts in this thread.

 

3) The Yankees haven't gone to incredible financial lengths to sign any of the players that both the Yankees and the Red Sox are interested in, as you seem to be implying.

 

Sure, if the Red Sox topped the Yankees' offer for Teixeira and Damon, it is very possible that the Yankees would have countered again, eventually signing them. But given the facts I've mentioned, to say this is an absolute certainty just isn't true.

 

Additionally, consider this. If the Red Sox were so sure that it would be foolish to top the Yankees' bid, because the Yankees would just increase their offer until the player signed with him, then why wouldn't they just increase their bid to drive up the price? They wouldn't be losing anything, and they would only be forcing the Yankees to overpay, which will hurt in the future.

 

My guess why they choose not to do this is because the increased price exceeds how much they believe the player is worth, and they're scared of getting stuck with that player for the increased price.

[Dipre]

1) There are players that the Yankees have shown interest in that ended up signing with the Red Sox.

 

I need an example of a player that the Yanks were set on acquiring that the Sox got.

 

2) There are players that the Yankees have actually been in contract negotiations with that ended up signing with other teams, for reasons I've already mentioned in two separate posts in this thread.

 

Which is why i use the "When the Yankees really want a player" caveat. Because, when the Yankees really want a player, they get him. (Jason Giambi, Sabathia, Teixeira, A-Rod, Pavano, Wright, Contreras, among others).

 

3) The Yankees haven't gone to incredible financial lengths to sign any of the players that both the Yankees and the Red Sox are interested in, as you seem to be implying.

 

"Incredible financial lengths" when compared to who? Because the fact that the Yankees signed this player at a rate that is slightly beyond the Sox' realm of possibility is still an effective showing of their financial advantage, but we already know that, so i see no base for the argument.

 

Sure, if the Red Sox topped the Yankees' offer for Teixeira and Damon, it is very possible that the Yankees would have countered again, eventually signing them. But given the facts I've mentioned, to say this is an absolute certainty just isn't true.

 

To say it's unlikely isn't true, either.

 

Additionally, consider this. If the Red Sox were so sure that it would be foolish to top the Yankees' bid, because the Yankees would just increase their offer until the player signed with him, then why wouldn't they just increase their bid to drive up the price? They wouldn't be losing anything, and they would only be forcing the Yankees to overpay, which will hurt in the future.

 

They have a set price for players, driving the price up while handcuffing themselves if, by a miracle the player ends up taking their offer is not a smart move, because, until this year, the only team without financial constraints was the Yankees. Trying to state otherwise is ignoring the elephant in the room.

 

My guess why they choose not to do this is because the increased price exceeds how much they believe the player is worth, and they're scared of getting stuck with that player for the increased price.

 

We agree on this, but why? Because other teams have a problem getting "stuck" with players because they actually had a payroll "ceiling", which the Yankees didn't have until apparently this off-season.

[Dojji]

I need an example of a player that the Yanks were set on acquiring that the Sox got.

 

Let's just deal with the obvious here too -- Daisuke is clearly the exception that proves the rule.

[yankees228]

They've had a payroll ceiling every single offseason. It just hasn't really increased the last few years.

 

Dipre, I could counter every single once of these points, then you would counter them, and we would just being going back and forth like usual on this topic, accomplishing nothing. I readily admit that the Yankees have a financial advantage over every other team. I just think you overstate the advantage, and I think I've shown this with fact. You disagree, and it has become pointless to continue to have these discussions.

 

EDIT: And for the record, don't believe this is any kind of concession that would allow you to declare victory. I truly believe what I'm saying in the above post.

[Dojji]

How can that advantage be exaggerated when both teams go after a guy and the Yankees *always* get him? The only exception in recent memory, of a player Boston and New York both wanted and Boston got, is Daisuke, in a blind bid when the Yankees had no chance to beat our best offer.

[Dipre]

They've had a payroll ceiling every single offseason. It just hasn't really increased the last few years.

 

Dipre, I could counter every single once of these points, then you would counter them, and we would just being going back and forth like usual on this topic, accomplishing nothing. I readily admit that the Yankees have a financial advantage over every other team. I just think you overstate the advantage, and I think I've shown this with fact. You disagree, and it has become pointless to continue to have these discussions.

 

EDIT: And for the record, don't believe this is any kind of concession that would allow you to declare victory. I truly believe what I'm saying in the above post.

 

Declaring victory? This is not a battle for the supremacy of the teams. I argue because i believe in what i'm arguing.

[yankees228]

Declaring victory? This is not a battle for the supremacy of the teams. I argue because i believe in what i'm arguing.

 

I'm talking about you declaring victory in our discussion, nothing to do with the Yankees and the Red Sox. Either way, that wasn't the main point of my post.

[yankees228]

How can that advantage be exaggerated when both teams go after a guy and the Yankees *always* get him? The only exception in recent memory' date=' of a player Boston and New York both wanted and Boston got, is Daisuke, in a blind bid when the Yankees had no chance to beat our best offer.[/quote']

 

We're really only talking about three guys here, Contreras, Damon, and Teixeira. In the case of Contreras, that had nothing to do with money, but instead had to do with some clever tactical decisions by the Yankees, after the Red Sox thought they had him.

 

As for the other two, yeah, they outbid the Red Sox. Here's what I find funny though. Gom's links and subsequent opinions are being knocked as nothing more than conjecture. However, the theory that the Yankees will just outbid every single one of the Red Sox's offers is also nothing more than conjecture as well.

 

The reason I say the Yankees' overall financial advantage is overstated is because people act like they can get whoever they want, which isn't true at all.

[Dojji]

Look at recent history, and name the last 6 times when the Red Sox and Yankees both went after the same guy in a normal way.

 

Teixeira

Santana

Damon

Pavano*

A-Rod

Contreras*

 

5 of the 6, the Yankees got the player. The last one, the Mets got the player after the Yankees and Red Sox got tired of Bill Smith dicking around and pulled out. In no case did the Red Sox get the player.

 

This is an "insignificant" advantage?

 

*Just because I'm glad you won, didn't mean you didn't win

[Dojji]

We can throw Roger Clemens' 2007 swan song in there too. So that's 6 out of freaking 7.

[yankees228]

Look at recent history, and name the last 6 times when the Red Sox and Yankees both went after the same guy in a normal way.

 

Teixeira

Santana

Damon

Pavano*

A-Rod

Contreras*

 

5 of the 6, the Yankees got the player. The last one, the Mets got the player after the Yankees and Red Sox got tired of Bill Smith dicking around and pulled out. In no case did the Red Sox get the player.

 

This is an "insignificant" advantage?

 

*Just because I'm glad you won, didn't mean you didn't win

 

Contreras was about a lot more than money, if you know the story that has been made public.

 

Pavano was also about a lot more things than money. He went around to a ton of teams that winter (remember, the Carl-A-Palooza tour), and decided that he wanted to play for the Yankees. Sure, part of it was money, but it wasn't the whole story, and (to the best of my knowledge) the Yankees and the Red Sox were never bidding against each other.

 

If you want to include Pavano in the discussion, then I can include Lackey.

 

The inclusion of Santana is absolutely meaningless.

[Dojji]

Sorry, doesn't work that way. Both teams wanted Carl, both teams wanted Contreras, your team got him. They count.

 

Show me any evidence that the Yankees put a serious offer down on Lackey. The evidence is very much there for both Carl and Contreras. You don't get to discout them just because there may have been "other reasons."

 

Although there are two guys I forgot. You guys made a concrete offer for Curt Schilling, and put in a waiver claim on Doug Mirabelli that cost us Cla Meredith.

[yankees228]

You're ignoring the fact that other things might have been involved besides money, which is separate from the Yankees' financial advantage.

 

As for Carl, I don't remember an actual offer, only a meeting. Got a link?

[Dojji]

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2004/12/12/torre_the_lure_as_pavano_opts_for_yankees/

 

Pavano's agent, Scott Shapiro, said last night that the Connecticut native and former Sox farmhand had instructed him to complete a deal with the Yankees as he spurned the Sox and three other finalists: the Orioles, Mariners, and Tigers

 

And no I'm not ignoring it, I just consider it unimportant to the discussion.

[yankees228]

It proves they were in on him, just like all the other teams he met with. Maybe he had already eliminated some of these teams at that point, but it's also possible that the article is just ignoring all the other teams he met with (because the author didn't think they all were legitimate candidates).

 

Either way, there is nothing here about making an offer, just proof that there was interest.