V-Mart's future in Boston past 2010?

[callandor1000]

We're talking really breaking the bank and on a position that eats players. What is the guarantee that Mauer won't break down? I mean, we're talking setting a payroll precedent at the catcher position? I just don't think its intelligent. It's perhaps the only position that I think it would be better in just about every scenario to develop at than to shell out a giant contract. I'm not afraid of spending money, I'm afraid of spending money on that particular position.

[jacksonianmarch]

He loses some value. Not as much as you'd think given his defensive struggles at the 2 position.

 

As a catcher, he's top 5 in the game offensively. As a 1b, his OPS would rank behind....

 

Kevin Youkilis

Mark Teixeira

Carlos Pena

Albert Pujols

Prince Fielder

Joey Votto

Derrek Lee

Adrian Gonzalez

Miguel Cabrera

Ryan Howard

Kendry Morales

Lance Berkman

Todd Helton

Justin Morneau

Russell Branyan

 

He's have been 16th in the game out of 30 teams, which is average.

[Dipre]

As a catcher, he's top 5 in the game offensively. As a 1b, his OPS would rank behind....

 

Kevin Youkilis

Mark Teixeira

Carlos Pena

Albert Pujols

Prince Fielder

Joey Votto

Derrek Lee

Adrian Gonzalez

Miguel Cabrera

Ryan Howard

Kendry Morales

Lance Berkman

Todd Helton

Justin Morneau

Russell Branyan

 

He's have been 16th in the game out of 30 teams, which is average.

 

I don't know if you know this, but the C position is a defense-first position.

 

Instead of stating the obvious, how about this:

 

How much value do you think below-average defense substracts value from a catcher when compared to other positions?

[jacksonianmarch]

I think that a guy who plays defense enough to handle the position, which a guy like Martinez or Posada or other defensively challenged catchers do can make up for it with their offense. Martinez as a catcher is worth a TON more than as a 1b. Now, there are some guys who are so bad defensively that keeping them in the game hurts more than any offensive explosion. Martinez isnt that guy. He's bad behind the dish. But his bat more than makes up for it, and it replaces a black hole that was in the lineup for so long in Vtek.

[Dipre]

I think that a guy who plays defense enough to handle the position' date=' which a guy like Martinez or Posada or other defensively challenged catchers do can make up for it with their offense. Martinez as a catcher is worth a TON more than as a 1b. Now, there are some guys who are so bad defensively that keeping them in the game hurts more than any offensive explosion. Martinez isnt that guy. He's bad behind the dish. But his bat more than makes up for it, and it replaces a black hole that was in the lineup for so long in Vtek.[/quote']

 

You need to read.

 

What was stated was that Martinez "Loses all his value" as a 1B.

 

What i was trying to convey was that even though much more valuable as a catcher, he doesn't lose all his value as a 1B because not only can he still hit, but he's not a defensive wizard behind the plate.

[jacksonianmarch]

Those stupid little jabs are the reason why you incite so much garbage on this site. Keep that in mind

 

In terms of Martinez, it depends on what kind of value you are talking about. As a 1b, he becomes pedestrian, middle of the pack. His worth plummets. He doesn't lose all his value. But he loses enough to make him much less desireable and much less useful. He would actually make the sox 1b position worse than it was the prior yr. This is what people are talking about.

[Dipre]

Those stupid little jabs are the reason why you incite so much garbage on this site. Keep that in mind

 

In terms of Martinez, it depends on what kind of value you are talking about. As a 1b, he becomes pedestrian, middle of the pack. His worth plummets. He doesn't lose all his value. But he loses enough to make him much less desireable and much less useful. He would actually make the sox 1b position worse than it was the prior yr. This is what people are talking about.

 

Actually, Einstein, i wasn't being sarcastic. I was literally asking you to read. Before you run your mouth and end up wasting my time making me read the obvious, please read what was said before coming up with your attempts at showing intellectual superiority. Which is the reason why everyone here thinks you're full of hot air and takes 99% of what you post as biased garbage. Keep that in mind.

[Dojji]

I don't know how well UZR/150 works for catchers, but Martinez' is only -1.7 or so. Pretty much dead average or only slightly below.

 

Fangraphs' "value" rating shows him at 25.8 with his bat, and -0.3 with his glove. In other words, a great hitter and an average defender as a catcher but the not-exactly-excellent defense isn' enough of a problem to overwhelm his offensive value -- yet.

 

That said, he obviously doesn't have far to dceline before he's clearly below average. But for now, he's not defeisnvely "bad" so much as merely "not as good as the premium defensive catchers."

[Dipre]

I don't know how well UZR/150 works for catchers, but Martinez' is only -1.7 or so. Pretty much dead average or only slightly below.

 

Fangraphs' "value" rating shows him at 25.8 with his bat, and -0.3 with his glove. In other words, a great hitter and an average defender as a catcher but the not-exactly-excellent defense isn' enough of a problem to overwhelm his offensive value -- yet.

 

That said, he obviously doesn't have far to dceline before he's clearly below average. But for now, he's not defeisnvely "bad" so much as merely "not as good as the premium defensive catchers."

 

The problem is his arm, which UZR doesn't account for.

 

You and i could steal from V-Mart with ease, and not being able to control the running game hits a catcher's defensive value particularly hard.

[Dojji]

Just last year (2008) Martinez threw out 30% of steal attempts. He did the same in 2007.

 

He had a bad year this year, but one bad year is exactly what it is, so I'm going to hold out hope that he can bounce back to his career averages, which are a low-but-acceptable 24%..

[Dipre]

Just last year (2008) Martinez threw out 30% of steal attempts. He did the same in 2007.

 

He had a bad year this year, but one bad year is exactly what it is, so I'm going to hold out hope that he can bounce back to his career averages, which are a low-but-acceptable 24%..

 

You have to take into consideration that V-Mart's CS% doesn't tell the whole story. He catches a lot of "Cheap" base-stealers, or guys who really don't run well but try to take bases off of him because they don't respect his arm. When teams run a lot on a catcher, you know it's because his arm is well below average.

 

For comparison's sake, over his career, there have been 816 SB attempts against Jorge Posada, who's been in the league since 1995.

 

Over V-Mart's career, which started in 2002, there have been 611 SB attempts with him behind the plate. He's simply awful at preventing the stolen base, and the fact that teams run a lot on him demonstrates it.

[Dojji]

You know me, I've wanted a good cannon arm behind the plate for awhile, but when I campaigned for the team to bring in an available catcher with a great arm (Johjima) you guys suddenly found that other issues about what makes a good catcher were much more important than how they control the running game.

[Dipre]

You know me' date=' I've wanted a good cannon arm behind the plate for awhile, but when I campaigned for the team to bring in an available catcher with a great arm (Johjima) you guys suddenly found that other issues about what makes a good catcher were much more important than how they control the running game.[/quote']

 

Remember that a lot of people said afterwards, that they were just busting your balls about the Johjima deal, however, my point isn't that V-Mart is a terrible option, but that he's not a long-term solution at C, given his fringe defensive skills.

[Dojji]

Fair enough. Me I haven't given up on Mauer yet.

[Dipre]

Fair enough. Me I haven't given up on Mauer yet.

 

I think he stays a Twin though.

[Dojji]

You're probably right, but I don't see much else that we can hold out for other than V-Mart unless Exposito exceeds expectations. And I kinda don't see it with him given his big weakness is his hitting eye.

 

Personally I think Expo is only going to emerge as a younger version of Johjima. A .260/.310/.430 type with great defense. Those can be useful, but they're definitely not what we're used to. And I'm not yet counting on anything at all from Federowicz or Lavarnway, given their track record (or lack thereof) and the unanswered questions about Lavarnway's defense.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

As a catcher, he's top 5 in the game offensively. As a 1b, his OPS would rank behind....

 

Kevin Youkilis

Mark Teixeira

Carlos Pena

Albert Pujols

Prince Fielder

Joey Votto

Derrek Lee

Adrian Gonzalez

Miguel Cabrera

Ryan Howard

Kendry Morales

Lance Berkman

Todd Helton

Justin Morneau

Russell Branyan

 

He's have been 16th in the game out of 30 teams, which is average.

An .861 OPS is an .861 OPS. On what planet does this become more or less valuable depending on the player's fielding position?

[Dojji]

An .861 OPS is an .861 OPS. On what planet does this become more or less valuable depending on the player's fielding position?

 

On a planet where you have to find offense from every position to be a championship team, and in which it's much harder to find .861 OPS for catcher or shortstop than it is to find the same at first.

 

Don't they teach the scarcity principle in economics anymore?

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

On a planet where you have to find offense from every position to be a championship team' date=' and in which it's much harder to find .861 OPS for catcher or shortstop than it is to find the same at first.[/quote']

 

You want to look at offense, look at the batting order.

 

Catcher is a defense-first position.

 

Don't they teach the scarcity principle in economics anymore?

 

It's been replaced by common sense.

[Gom]

Catcher is a defense-first position.

What I've been saying for years.

[jacksonianmarch]

An .861 OPS is an .861 OPS. On what planet does this become more or less valuable depending on the player's fielding position?

 

You expect more offense out of certain positions. At 1b, his OPS is league average. At catcher, his OPS is top 5. Thats the point here.

[rician blast]

An .861 OPS is an .861 OPS. On what planet does this become more or less valuable depending on the player's fielding position?

 

Pssst....the answer is Earth.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

You expect more offense out of certain positions. At 1b' date=' his OPS is league average. At catcher, his OPS is top 5. Thats the point here.[/quote']

I don't give a s***. When I judge an offense, I look up and down the batting order. I guess we forget how much of an utter disaster a Martinez/Varitek combination was behind the plate last year. But hey, we can afford to throw out 3% of baserunners in favor of some petty HIS OPS IS GOOD HEER BUT NOT SO GOOD HEER ********, rite?

[S3ANTHAD0N]

I think we should extend V-Mart 2-3 years as a fallback plan then trade him when we don't need him.

 

Imagine 2011..

 

Option A: Mauer C A-Gon 1B Youk 3B Anderson DH

or

Option B: Mauer C Anderson 1B Youk 3B V-Mart DH

 

 

wishful thinking.. but if we trade for A-Gon.. keep Anderson and he is successful in the minors in 2010 i'd love option A

[example1]

I don't give a s***. When I judge an offense' date=' I look up and down the batting order. I guess we forget how much of an utter disaster a Martinez/Varitek combination was behind the plate last year. But hey, we can afford to throw out 3% of baserunners in favor of some petty HIS OPS IS GOOD HEER BUT NOT SO GOOD HEER ********, rite?[/quote']

 

The chances of finding a catcher with a near-.900 OPS are much lower than finding a 1B with a similarly good OPS. If your goal is to look up and down the order and see good people in each spot, VMART should be the catcher. That's what the Sox got him to do, IMO.

 

I totally hear what you're saying about catcher defense, and I realize that VMART might be a bit of a liability defensively. However, he more than makes up for it offensively and combined with a near-elite 1B/3B (with Youkilis) his defenisve liabilities won't matter as much.

[example1]

I think we should extend V-Mart 2-3 years as a fallback plan then trade him when we don't need him.

 

Imagine 2011..

 

Option A: Mauer C A-Gon 1B Youk 3B Anderson DH

or

Option B: Mauer C Anderson 1B Youk 3B V-Mart DH

 

 

wishful thinking.. but if we trade for A-Gon.. keep Anderson and he is successful in the minors in 2010 i'd love option A

 

Wishful thinking indeed. Why would Martinez sign a 2 year deal? Furthermore, if he's still useful then why would the Sox trade him "when they don't need him"... for that matter, why would any team trade for him if he's no longer good.

 

I also like the idea of Mauer and Martinez, at least insofar as I don't think that having Martinez should be a roadblock to signing Mauer. Of course, I think that planning to move Mauer to the DH position is something the Sox can do if they have a chance to sign him. I'm not sure if the Yankees can. If that's the case then the Sox should be able to outbid just about anyone, except perhaps the Mets.

[Spudboy]

I have a plan!

 

Slip Billy Bean a Ruffie and stage pictures of him in bed with a couple of Transvestites. Blackmail him into trading Curt Suzuki for some low level prospects.

 

Move V-Mart to 1st, Youk to 3rd.

 

Simple.

[callandor1000]

You're probably right, but I don't see much else that we can hold out for other than V-Mart unless Exposito exceeds expectations. And I kinda don't see it with him given his big weakness is his hitting eye.

 

Personally I think Expo is only going to emerge as a younger version of Johjima. A .260/.310/.430 type with great defense. Those can be useful, but they're definitely not what we're used to. And I'm not yet counting on anything at all from Federowicz or Lavarnway, given their track record (or lack thereof) and the unanswered questions about Lavarnway's defense.

 

 

Wait, what do you mean its not what we're used to? Tek hasn't been worth a damn hitting in the better part of 3+ seasons. Having a guy hitting .260 is by far more than we're used to.

[S3ANTHAD0N]

Wishful thinking indeed. Why would Martinez sign a 2 year deal? Furthermore, if he's still useful then why would the Sox trade him "when they don't need him"... for that matter, why would any team trade for him if he's no longer good.

 

I also like the idea of Mauer and Martinez, at least insofar as I don't think that having Martinez should be a roadblock to signing Mauer. Of course, I think that planning to move Mauer to the DH position is something the Sox can do if they have a chance to sign him. I'm not sure if the Yankees can. If that's the case then the Sox should be able to outbid just about anyone, except perhaps the Mets.

 

so how about...

 

Mauer C A-Gon 1B Youk 3B V-Mart DH

[Dipre]

so how about...

 

Mauer C A-Gon 1B Youk 3B V-Mart DH

 

It sounds easy.

 

It's not.