Bay vs. Holliday

[redsoxrules]

so his 2007 season dosent count? you're starting to sound like Jacko

[Dojji]

so his 2007 season dosent count? you're starting to sound like Jacko

 

There's enough of a baseline from his other seasons to demonstrate that 2007 doesn't reflect Bay's talent level. When a guy is one thing every year but one, he's probably that thing. In this case, one of the better offensive LF's in the league and also one of the most consistent from year to year -- and a player I want back next year and for many more.

 

Much like I feel there's enough of a baseline from his other seasons to wonder about Holliday's 2007, which is when everyone started lusting after him, and whether he'll ever reach that level again.

[Dipre]

.037 OPS is substantial? It's there' date=' I haven't denied it, but that difference barely clears the margin of performance either one would have in a given year.[/quote']

 

It is.

 

Mostly fuelled by Matt Holliday's 2007 season in which he hit .340 (and achieved a whopping .380 BABIP). Over the last two seasons Bay has had the advantage.

 

Holliday has the best offensive season between the two. Bay has the second, fourth, and fifth, and has performed at a consistently good level throughout his career, especially if you bear in mind that Bat's injury-riddled 2007 performance drags his numbers down as much as Holliday's 2007 performance with that ridiculous BABIP inflates his.

 

O rly?

 

Because i remember you telling me Bay's .355, .328 and .352 BABIP were basically "normal" because he's "done it many times", what a hypocrite.

 

And Holliday's 2006 season trumps anything Bay has to offer OPS-wise. Stop it.

 

 

I said over the last two years, dolt.

 

Homers do matter, and other than 2007 Bay has hit more of them every year than Holliday has.

 

Sure, Holliday hits enough extra singles to inflate his SLG past Bay's but Bay has superior isolated power. (.240 to Holliday's .227) If you want a pure power hitter, the better power hitter of the two is still Jason Bay.

 

 

Extra singles to inflate his slugging?

 

LOL.

 

As usual, you go on a tangent, i've never said best power hitter, but best overall performer. Try reading please. And no, homers by themselves don't matter. Stop with the ******** arguments.

 

And "dolt"?

 

What are you, twelve?

 

Do you still get up early Saturday morning to watch cartoons?

 

Did you hear me say defense didn't matter?

 

If you'll look back, I said that unless one of the two was awful, defense was at most a secondary issue. We're going after these players because they're offensive players. Defense is an extra, a tiebreaker, the crackers with the soup, whatever "secondary but potentially useful attribute) analog you prefer.

 

Bay is an awful defender. Care to counter that?

[Dojji]

Bay is an awful defender. Care to counter that?

 

Why the heck would anyone actually attempt to have a rational discussion with you on any subject?

 

Seriously, you're at least as bad with the loopy crusades on minor points as you accuse me of being.

 

The difference between Bay and Holliday is NOT that great and which one you go after depends on what you want from your left fielder. it is NOT a slam dunk that Holliday is the guy you go after, and even if it is you STILL go after both because either one is more than good enough to be our left fielder. And that's the end of it.

[Dipre]

Why the heck would anyone actually attempt to have a rational discussion with you on any subject?

 

Nice edit.

[Dojji]

Honest question, Dipre.

 

If we wind up with Bay and not Holliday, are you going to be disappointed?

[Dipre]

Honest question, Dipre.

 

If we wind up with Bay and not Holliday, are you going to be disappointed?

 

Nope.

[Dojji]

Then what the heck was all that about? I came into this thread to point out that you go after both guys and that Bay isn't a bad guy to wind up with, and you show up riding the Holliday bandwagon for all it's worth. It sounds like for the most part you agree with me so what was all that for?

[Dipre]

Then what the heck was all that about? I came into this thread to point out that you go after both guys and that Bay isn't a bad guy to wind up with' date=' and you show up riding the Holliday bandwagon for all it's worth. It sounds like for the most part you agree with me so what was all that for?[/quote']

 

Simple.

 

I would much rather prefer Holliday over Bay, but i don't think either of them should wind up being the centerpiece of this offense, but as far as being a pure hitter and better defender go, Holliday takes the cake by a mile. The point remains i don't think either of them should be the piece this offense is built upon.

[Spudboy]

I have a question.

 

Are the Cards in a position to pay Holliday what it would take to keep him?

And while I'm at it, are there other teams that will be players in the Holliday stakes other than the Yankees and Sox?

 

And I'll try once again. How about Crawford in left and Gonzalez at 1st for the Sox?

Is this just a fantasy?

[Dojji]

I have a question.

 

Are the Cards in a position to pay Holliday what it would take to keep him?

And while I'm at it, are there other teams that will be players in the Holliday stakes other than the Yankees and Sox?

 

I'm not sure they are. Especially because Albert Pujols' own contract is coming due after the 2011 season. They're going to want to make sure they have plenty of bullets in reserve for THAT battle.

 

And I'll try once again. How about Crawford in left and Gonzalez at 1st for the Sox?

Is this just a fantasy?

 

Probably. even if you could get Adrian Gonzalez, I'm pretty sure Carl Crawford will be a Ray for at least one more year.

 

If we fail to get Bay or Holliday this offseason and wind up with an older LF on a one year deal though we've got a good crack at Crawford in the 2011 season.

[Dipre]

I have a question.

 

Are the Cards in a position to pay Holliday what it would take to keep him?

And while I'm at it, are there other teams that will be players in the Holliday stakes other than the Yankees and Sox?

 

And I'll try once again. How about Crawford in left and Gonzalez at 1st for the Sox?

Is this just a fantasy?

 

At first i thought the Cards could re-sign Holliday, but i don't think they're in position to re-sign him and award Pujols a new contract, so he's probably a goner.

 

Probably the Mets will also be players in the Bay/Holliday sweepstakes.

 

About Crawford, we need to see if Tampa will exercise his option (They probably will) and about Gonzales, the ball is probably in the FO's hands.

[Dojji]

the ball is probably in the FO's hands.

 

If by that you mean the new Padres GM's FO.

[Dipre]

If by that you mean the new Padres GM's FO.

 

I worded it wrong, i meant both FO's.

[Dojji]

OK, cool.

 

The ball is pretty much in SD's court IMHO. Everyone knows we want AG. The question really is whether the Padres are willing to countenance a deal like that at a price Theo will pay.

[TheKilo]

162 K's.

 

Not that vulnerable my ass.

 

And let's not mention his defense in left please.

 

I disagree with Dojji's overall point, as I think Holliday would be quite an upgrade over Bay (taking defense into account) but I take exception to using strikeout numbers to prove a batter's "vulnrability" or whatever you want to cal it. A strikeout is worth the same as any other out. It's the same as a grounder to second, or a popout, or a flyball to the triangle. Bay was one of thebest hitters at not making outs last season...you want vulnerable, look at Ortiz, or Lowell, or anyone else with an OBP less than Bay's.

[example1]

I disagree with Dojji's overall point' date=' as I think Holliday would be quite an upgrade over Bay (taking defense into account) but I take exception to using strikeout numbers to prove a batter's "vulnrability" or whatever you want to cal it. A strikeout is worth the same as any other out. It's the same as a grounder to second, or a popout, or a flyball to the triangle. Bay was one of thebest hitters at not making outs last season...you want vulnerable, look at Ortiz, or Lowell, or anyone else with an OBP less than Bay's.[/quote']

 

I rarely look at AVG as something that would differentiate one hitter from another, but in this case, what is the difference between Holliday's .318 career average and Bay's considerably lower one?

 

What does that difference tell us about the type of hitter that they are.

 

I am glad to see this discussion continuing. I don't think we would have a discussion about ANY potential FA pitcher acquisition without strong feelings one way or the other about Pitcher A vs. Pitcher B, but I was afraid in this LF discussion we would just say Bay = Holliday, when it should be much more complex than that.

 

Even with Defense aside, Holliday is better IMO

[Keeper]

A strikeout is worth the same as any other out. It's the same as a grounder to second' date=' or a popout, or a flyball to the triangle.[/quote']

 

Not quite. A strikeout is never a productive out. Putting the ball in play moves baserunners.

[redsoxrules]

Not quite. A strikeout is never a productive out. Putting the ball in play moves baserunners.

 

true but in some cases putting the ball in play ends up being worse. GIDP

[yankees228]

Not quite. A strikeout is never a productive out. Putting the ball in play moves baserunners.

 

But at the same time, putting the ball in play can cause two outs, instead of one. It's double edged.

 

Being able to put the ball in play is only a useful tool if you're a good situational hitter. Now, I have no idea what kind of situational hitter Jason Bay is, so I can't comment on this specific case.

 

EDIT: Can't believe I got beat to the punch while responding two minutes after the post hahaha.

[Dojji]

I rarely look at AVG as something that would differentiate one hitter from another' date=' but in this case, what is the difference between Holliday's .318 career average and Bay's considerably lower one? [/quote']

 

.280 is significantly lower, but it's not a bad AVG to have.

 

Bay is more vulnerable than Holliday, but let's not pretend he's Jack Cust.

[Keeper]

Yes, putting the ball in play can result in GIDP. But as I said a strikeout is never a productive out.

[TheKilo]

Not quite. A strikeout is never a productive out. Putting the ball in play moves baserunners.

 

You are absolutely right. Now go through the gamelogs and giveme the instances where and out could be "productive" for Bay but he struck out instead, where puttingthe ball in play makes a discernable difference. I'd venture a guess to say it is less than 20 times.

 

And I have to commend Dojji. He argued his point very, very well in this thread, even in the face of numerous instances of juvenile name_calling.

 

I have to ask, if we can discredit Holliday's two+ months in Oakland, can wedo the same for Bay's time in Pittsburgh, which is a incredibly difficult place for RHH to hit? If Bay got to hit in Coors, methinks he'd come out on top of this offensive comparison.

[Dipre]

You are absolutely right. Now go through the gamelogs and giveme the instances where and out could be "productive" for Bay but he struck out instead, where puttingthe ball in play makes a discernable difference. I'd venture a guess to say it is less than 20 times.

 

And I have to commend Dojji. He argued his point very, very well in this thread, even in the face of numerous instances of juvenile name_calling.

 

I have to ask, if we can discredit Holliday's two+ months in Oakland, can wedo the same for Bay's time in Pittsburgh, which is a incredibly difficult place for RHH to hit? If Bay got to hit in Coors, methinks he'd come out on top of this offensive comparison.

 

Bay's 2007 has never been taken into account. Doesn't that make it fair enough?

[Dipre]

I disagree with Dojji's overall point' date=' as I think Holliday would be quite an upgrade over Bay (taking defense into account)[b'] but I take exception to using strikeout numbers to prove a batter's "vulnrability" or whatever you want to cal it. [/b] A strikeout is worth the same as any other out. It's the same as a grounder to second, or a popout, or a flyball to the triangle. Bay was one of thebest hitters at not making outs last season...you want vulnerable, look at Ortiz, or Lowell, or anyone else with an OBP less than Bay's.

 

.280 is significantly lower, but it's not a bad AVG to have.

 

Bay is more vulnerable than Holliday, but let's not pretend he's Jack Cust.

 

Justice.

[TheKilo]

Bay was hurt in 2007. Like Holliday's 2007, it's clear that is the aberration for the statistical baseline and not the rule. Dojji makes a lot of god points about the replication of numbers on a year in, year out basis, yet you opted to call him names instead of address those points.

 

Holliday is a better player than Bay. Not sure he's worth the contract he will get.

[Dipre]

 

And I have to commend Dojji. He argued his point very, very well in this thread, even in the face of numerous instances of juvenile name_calling.

 

I'll take exception to this.

 

This whole argument took on the tone it took after i called him out for a couple snarky, sarcastic comments.

 

So who the hell are you to come three threads and four discussions later to "commend Doiji"?

 

I bet if you didn't agree with him you wouldn't be"commending" anybody.

[Dipre]

Bay was hurt in 2007. Like Holliday's 2007, it's clear that is the aberration for the statistical baseline and not the rule. Dojji makes a lot of god points about the replication of numbers on a year in, year out basis, yet you opted to call him names instead of address those points.

 

Holliday is a better player than Bay. Not sure he's worth the contract he will get.

 

Read above.

[redsoxrules]

Bay was hurt in 2007. Like Holliday's 2007, it's clear that is the aberration for the statistical baseline and not the rule. Dojji makes a lot of god points about the replication of numbers on a year in, year out basis, yet you opted to call him names instead of address those points.

 

Holliday is a better player than Bay. Not sure he's worth the contract he will get.

 

Bay's going to get close to what Holliday will get , so why not get Holliday ?

[Dipre]

Bay was hurt in 2007. Like Holliday's 2007, it's clear that is the aberration for the statistical baseline and not the rule. Dojji makes a lot of god points about the replication of numbers on a year in, year out basis, yet you opted to call him names instead of address those points.

 

Holliday is a better player than Bay. Not sure he's worth the contract he will get.

 

I'll post it here again just for "Shut you up" sake.

 

I didn't argue my points?

 

So my proving that career-wise, Holliday having not only a .037 adavantage in OPS, but an advantage in both OBP (.011) and SLG% (.026), plus better defense in LF and out of all the seasons they've both produced, the top two best seasons among them?

 

Well it's true, then, i apologize.

 

That' not statistical analysis, that's calling names!

 

I apologize and promise i won't do it again.