Harden to Red Sox?

[Dipre]

In all reality we probably aren't going after either of them and our rental will turn out to be someone like Justin Duchscherer who offers a bit more flexibility and could go to the pen if other plans (Bowden' date=' Tazawa) work out as advertized[/quote']

 

If you're gonna spend money, you spend it on the pitcher who's statistics are more indicative towards future dominance.

 

Duscherer is not that pitcher, and his "flexibility" means nothing.

[a700hitter]

If you're gonna spend money, you spend it on the pitcher who's statistics are more indicative towards future dominance.

 

Duscherer is not that pitcher, and his "flexibility" means nothing.

I completely agree. The Rent-a-Wreck program has proven to be a failure year in and year out. Ultimately it is not cheap financially, because you need to have 2 or 3 options backing up each of these lames. This season we had Penny, Smoltz and Byrd none of which could hold down the 5 slot. It has also proved to be costly in wins and losses. Also agreed that Duscherer's versatility is meaningless.

[Emmz]

And how did Justin Duchscherer get brought into this conversation as a substitute to Harden/Bedard?

[italstallianion]

And how did Justin Duchscherer get brought into this conversation as a substitute to Harden/Bedard?

 

 

The same way Jose Reyes made his way into this conversation.

[Emmz]

*Goes back and looks who first mentioned Reyes* *Sees the pattern* *Suddenly understands*

[example1]

In all reality we probably aren't going after either of them and our rental will turn out to be someone like Justin Duchscherer who offers a bit more flexibility and could go to the pen if other plans (Bowden' date=' Tazawa) work out as advertized[/quote']

 

Harden could be a dominant force out of the pen if he could be converted and not cost too much. It might be a nice way to save his innings and it could convert his value as a MLB player for the later half of his career. A team like the Sox could certainly pull that off, if needed.

[Dojji]

Harden could be a dominant force out of the pen if he could be converted and not cost too much. It might be a nice way to save his innings and it could convert his value as a MLB player for the later half of his career. A team like the Sox could certainly pull that off' date=' if needed.[/quote']

 

Both of your conditionals are unlikely. Both Harden and Bedard are likely to get somewhat competitive contracts as starters from teams that make the perennial fool's gamble that they can keep them healthy.

 

In fact I feel confident enough to speculate that "might put me in the bullpen" is going to be a big strike against any team looking to sign either player.

 

As for Duchscherer -- look again guys. I'll grant you the AL West factor but this guy was about as good as Hideki Okajima in the bullpen before he got hurt, and was showing good returns as a starter (although he probably would have regressed to a Brian Bannister type). I'd say he's worth a flier, and unlike Bedard or Harden might be available on the cheap.

[Dipre]

Both of your conditionals are unlikely. Both Harden and Bedard are likely to get somewhat competitive contracts as starters from teams that make the perennial fool's gamble that they can keep them healthy.

 

In fact I feel confident enough to speculate that "might put me in the bullpen" is going to be a big strike against any team looking to sign either player.

 

We need a starter, not a swingman, the person whose premise is incorrect in the first place is Doiji.

 

This is meant to be a play on words, i know i'm responding to Doiji.

[Dojji]

We need a starter, not a swingman, the person whose premise is incorrect in the first place is Doiji.

 

This is meant to be a play on words, i know i'm responding to Doiji.

 

Are we presuming that Duchscherer would be my sole offseason target on the pitching side of things?

 

Personally I want Duchscherer and Bedard both. I think Duchscherer would be a fair replacement for Saito, who will probably move on in the offseason, with the ability to move him into the rotation if needed representing something of a bonus.

[Dipre]

Are we presuming that Duchscherer would be my sole offseason target?

 

Personally I want Duchscherer and Bedard both.

 

A) The two worse options.

 

B ) Both aren't happening.

[Dojji]

A) The two worse options.

 

B ) Both aren't happening.

 

 

A: Worse than what? A guy with a 4 ERA in the NL Central?

 

B: You can't possibly give me a real reason why both "ain't happening." Heck, if I said we were going after both Bedard and Harden, you still couldn't give me one.

 

While we're at it, how desperate are we for a frontline starter, really? If we do nothing, our rotation will boast Lester, Beckett, Buchholz, Daisuke, and probably Wakefield. That's competitive already with any rotation in Major League Baseball, especially if you factor in that we really didn't have an effective Daisuke this year If he can get back to his old tricks, we've already somewhat improved over this year..

 

Not that you ever turn down a chance to improve the roster when it presents itself, but most of what we need is more Wakefield insurance than a frontline dominator I think a quality swingman actually fits our needs nicely.

[Dipre]

A: Worse than what? A guy with a 4 ERA in the NL Central?

 

B: You can't possibly give me a real reason why both "ain't happening." Heck, if I said we were going after both Bedard and Harden, you still couldn't give me one.

 

While we're at it, how desperate are we for a frontline starter, really? If we do nothing, our rotation will boast Lester, Beckett, Buchholz, Daisuke, and probably Wakefield. That's competitive already with any rotation in Major League Baseball, especially if you factor in that we really didn't have an effective Daisuke this year If he can get back to his old tricks, we've already somewhat improved over this year..

 

Not that you ever turn down a chance to improve the roster when it presents itself, but I think a swingman actually fits our needs nicely.

 

Lol Harden, even with his 4 ERA was HEALTHIER than both the pitchers you mentioned.

 

What the f*** are you talkin' about?

 

Not to mention he's got better stuff than both.

 

And i didn't know you were part of the Sox FO, because i'm pretty certain they'll be looking for a starter and some insurance.

 

Enlighten me as to which of Bedard and JD would be considered insurance for a rotation spot.

[Dojji]

Lol Harden' date=' even with his 4 ERA was HEALTHIER than both the pitchers you mentioned.[/quote']

 

Health isn't everything. Penny was healthy. He wasn't effective.

 

What the f*** are you talkin' about?

 

Not to mention he's got better stuff than both.

 

It's done him a fat lot of good so far in his career. The guy has never even thrown 150 innings or completed a healthy season. Bedard has. And even Duchscher has had some solid years out of the pen.

 

Also, don't go overboard on the stuff. Bedard has great stuff himself and he commands it substantially better than Harden does.

 

And i didn't know you were part of the Sox FO, because i'm pretty certain they'll be looking for a starter and some insurance.

 

Sure, like I said, you don't turn down chances to improve the team if they present themselves. But I don't think you'll see a blockbuster trade for Felix Hernandez or any other example of the Sox taking big risks to improve their rotation. Not until they make a call on Beckett anyway.

 

Enlighten me as to which of Bedard and JD would be considered insurance for a rotation spot.

 

Both of them. Let history be your tutor here. Any pitcher you acquire is bound to get a chance to shine eventually over 162 games. We wound up using both of Smoltz and Penny and still smarted for depth so bad we had to sign Paul Byrd to get through the season.

[Dipre]

Health isn't everything. Penny was healthy. He wasn't effective

 

Your comparing of Brad Penny to Rich Harden is laughable.

 

It's done him a fat lot of good so far in his career. The guy has never even thrown 150 innings or completed a healthy season. Bedard has. And even Duchscher has had some solid years out of the pen.

 

Also, don't go overboard on the stuff. Bedard has great stuff himself and he commands it substantially better than Harden does.

 

Oh?

 

I told you to go check on Bedard's diminished stuff.

 

More than that in a minute.

 

About health, Bedard is not only oft-injured, but his desire to pitch has come into question.

 

Thanks, but no thanks.

 

 

Sure, like I said, you don't turn down chances to improve the team if they present themselves. But I don't think you'll see a blockbuster trade for Felix Hernandez or any other example of the Sox taking big risks to improve their rotation. Not until they make a call on Beckett anyway.

 

So this makes you think the Sox will again go with two question marks?

 

Both of them. Let history be your tutor here. Any pitcher you acquire is bound to get a chance to shine eventually over 162 games. We wound up using both of Smoltz and Penny and still smarted for depth so bad we had to sign Paul Byrd to get through the season.

 

Read above.

 

Thank the Lord you're not a member of the Sox FO, because i was certain that going the damaged good route with more than one pitcher was a lesson well learned.

 

 

 

Oh, and to keep you from making stuff up, Harden pitched 189 innings in 2004.

 

Get your stats straight.

[Emmz]

Woah, woah there cowboy, did he just say there was a chance we could get both Harden and Bedard? Please enlighten me.

[Dojji]

Woah' date=' woah there cowboy, did he just say there was a chance we could get [b']both[/b] Harden and Bedard? Please enlighten me.

 

What I said is there was no way you could tell me from this far out that there's no way it happens.

 

Sometimes certain of us like to substitute confident assertiveness for actual knowledge on a given subject.

[Emmz]

What I said is there was no way you could tell me from this far out that there's no way it happens.

 

Sometimes certain of us like to substitute confident assertiveness for actual knowledge on a given subject.

 

Yes, so in other words, you think there's a chance it could happen, right?

[Dipre]

What I said is there was no way you could tell me from this far out that there's no way it happens.

 

Sometimes certain of us like to substitute confident assertiveness for actual knowledge on a given subject.

 

Sure i can.

 

The FO just tried to bring two damaged good pitchers this season and it backfired.

 

Why the f*** would they do it again, specially considering there's only one rotation spot open and we still don't even know what'll happen with Wake.

 

Sometimes, certain people here like to substitute logic ad reality for senseless fantasy.

[Dojji]

Your comparing of Brad Penny to Rich Harden is laughable.

 

True, but the fact that Penny has been by far the more dependable pitcher over the last 5 years is neither here nor there.

 

 

 

Oh?

 

I told you to go check on Bedard's diminished stuff.

 

Yeah, and I went back and looked, and his las three years are his three best years by k/9. What diminished stuff would that be?

 

Taking the small sample size at face value, Bedard had the highest ERA+ of his career and the second highest k/9. H/9 and OOBP also suggest that when he is pitching, he's as good as his 2007 breakout season suggested he was. Bearing in mind that that 2007 result came in the AL East I'd say if he's behind Harden, which he probably is, it's not by a great deal.

 

While we were waiting for Lester to break out, he was being compared to Bedard in terms of stuff and future projections. The concept of having two of them appeals to me.

 

About health, Bedard is not only oft-injured, but his desire to pitch has come into question.

 

Thanks, but no thanks.

 

That is a factor, and you do have to think about that, but when it comes right down to it, Erik Bedard hasn't really been in very motivational situations with the Mariners. the GM who brought him in was fired for doing so and it was transparently clear that his team was going nowhere.

 

I really feel that the motivational factors for a guy who can pitch as successfully as Bedard did for a team like the Baltimore Orioles are overblown, and that giving him a good clubhouse and a chance to contend would be good for him.

 

 

So this makes you think the Sox will again go with two question marks?

 

And Rich Harden of all people isn't a question mark?

[Dojji]

Sure i can.

 

The FO just tried to bring two damaged good pitchers this season and it backfired.

 

Why the f*** would they do it again, specially considering there's only one rotation spot open and we still don't even know what'll happen with Wake.

 

Sometimes, certain people here like to substitute logic ad reality for senseless fantasy.

 

Right, because a guy advocating Harden really needs to be railing on the FO for bringing in question marks, injury bait and National League underperformers.

[Dipre]

True' date=' but the fact that Penny has been by far the more dependable pitcher over the last 5 years is neither here nor there.[/quote']

 

Nl West.

 

 

Yeah, and I went back and looked, and his las three years are his three best years by k/9. What diminished stuff would that be?

 

Taking the small sample size at face value, Bedard had the highest ERA+ of his career and the second highest k/9. H/9 and OOBP also suggest that when he is pitching, he's as good as his 2007 breakout season suggested he was. Bearing in mind that that 2007 result came in the AL East I'd say if he's behind Harden, which he probably is, it's not by a great deal.

 

Fastball and breaking stuff velocity, i did not know K/9 was the benchmark to quantify stuff, specially in the AL West.

 

While we were waiting for Lester to break out, he was being compared to Bedard in terms of stuff and future projections. The concept of having two of them appeals to me.

 

Except that while Lester's pitching, Bedard's on the DL with arm trouble.

 

 

That is a factor, and you do have to think about that, but when it comes right down to it, Erik Bedard hasn't really been in very motivational situations with the Mariners. the GM who brought him in was fired for doing so and it was transparently clear that his team was going nowhere.

 

I really feel that the motivational factors for a guy who can pitch as successfully as Bedard did for a team like the Baltimore Orioles are overblown, and that giving him a good clubhouse and a chance to contend would be good for him.

 

He was being a DICK and complaining about not liking the city and the team.

 

Read much?

 

And Rich Harden of all people isn't a question mark?

 

At least he's not a bitching dick, and the fact that he has better stuff and upside is not debatable.

[Dipre]

Right' date=' because a guy advocating Harden really needs to be railing on the FO for bringing in question marks, injury bait and National League underperformers.[/quote']

 

So advocating for Harden is the same as the asinine stupidity of bringing in both Bedard and Duscherer.

 

Point taken.

[Emmz]

Right' date=' because a guy advocating Harden really needs to be railing on the FO for bringing in question marks, injury bait and National League underperformers.[/quote']

 

Dude, you think it's a reality to bring in JD and Bedard, and even think that there's a chance of bringing in both Harden and Bedard. How do you put into question advocating Harden? He's got better stuff, HAS pitched over 150 innings before, which you said earlier that he didn't, and which was shown to be incorrect.

 

I don't think you've proven anything as far as Bedard being superior to Harden, and I actually think Harden would be the better way to go all things considered.

 

But I'm still curious, and you haven't justified your thoughts at all, about us having a possibility of getting Bedard and Harden. I just, that... Astounding.

[Dojji]

Nl West.

 

NL Central.

 

Fastball and breaking stuff velocity, i did not know K/9 was the benchmark to quantify stuff, specially in the AL West.

 

So either you think Hideki Okajima has horrendous stuff, or you're prepared to admit that velocity is not everything.

 

besides, Harden isn't exactly Justin Verlander when it comes to fastball velocity.

 

 

 

Except that while Lester's pitching, Bedard's on the DL with arm trouble.

 

If you keep bringing irrelevant extras in here we'll be here all day.

 

He was being a DICK and complaining about not liking the city and the team.

 

Read much?

 

He was promised a contender and was delivered a cellar dweller. I'm not loving the attitude but I can understand the frustration.

 

 

At least he's not a bitching dick, and the fact that he has better stuff and upside is not debatable.

 

Upside is questionable IMHO. If only because you have to be on the field for the upside to mean anything.

[Dojji]

Dude' date=' you think it's a reality to bring in JD and Bedard, and even think that there's a chance of bringing in both Harden and Bedard. How do you put into question advocating Harden? He's got better stuff, HAS pitched over 150 innings before, which you said earlier that he didn't, and which was shown to be incorrect.[/quote']

 

Yeah, but Bedard's still done it twice, and two years more recently.

 

I don't think you've proven anything as far as Bedard being superior to Harden, and I actually think Harden would be the better way to go all things considered.

 

I'm not trying to. I'm still trying to figure out exactly why Dipre is making such an issue over this. The hypocrisy of defending the acquisition Harden while simultaneously bashing the FO for bringing in veteran question marks makes my jaw drop.

 

Of course, I recognize that teams take chances with personnel all the time and that we are in a great position than any other team (yes, even NYY) to take this kind of risk because of the stability in the rest of our rotation, so I don't have a similar problem.

 

I would overpay for neither of Harden or Bedard. Which is why I brougth up Duchscherer. Who I would mostly acquire as a reliever to replace the (proably) outgoing Takashi Saito

 

But I'm still curious, and you haven't justified your thoughts at all, about us having a possibility of getting Bedard and Harden. I just, that... Astounding.

 

You're having trouble processing the potential of one of the best, richest, and most financially stable franchises in the sport being able to afford multiple free agents in the same season?

 

I mean seriously, we spent more on Daisuke alone than the total contracts Bedard and Harden are likely to bring down combined.

[Dipre]

NL Central.

 

Hitter's paradise compared to the NL West.

 

I wasn't even gonna bring it up.

 

But you're just being stupid.

 

Harden was successful before in the AL, so what in heaven's name are you talking about?

 

 

So either you think Hideki Okajima has horrendous stuff, or you're prepared to admit that velocity is not everything.

 

besides, Harden isn't exactly Justin Verlander when it comes to fastball velocity.

 

It's not velocity.

 

He's lost break and velocity on all his pitches.

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/pitchfx.aspx?playerid=126&position=P

 

 

If you keep bringing irrelevant extras in here we'll be here all day.

 

You mean the Doiji special?

 

He was promised a contender and was delivered a cellar dweller. I'm not loving the attitude but I can understand the frustration.

 

He's being paid millions of dollars.

 

He needs to STFU and play.

 

Upside is questionable IMHO. If only because you have to be on the field for the upside to mean anything.

 

I'm talking pure stuff, and non-torn labrums.

 

Don't try to weasel yourself out of the meat of the argument.

[Emmz]

 

NL Central? He's dominated in the AL as well.

 

If you keep bringing irrelevant extras in here we'll be here all day.

 

Dude, you're the king of this as far as I can tell, way to contradict yourself

 

He was promised a contender and was delivered a cellar dweller. I'm not loving the attitude but I can understand the frustration.

 

What? You're kidding right? Seattle promising contender?

[Dojji]

What? You're kidding right? Seattle promising contender?

 

Go back and read the articles from around the time they traded for him. that year Seattle was in the Wild Card hunt and actually led the Yankees at the end of August. I don't think it's much of a stretch to think that their GM thought he was close and the Silva signing and the Bedard trade bears that out.

 

Of course their offseason was a freaking disaster, their first baseman evaporated in a puff of slider batspeed, their best player was killing the baseball for the Orioles, the ghost of Kenji Johjima haunted the back of home plate providing virtually nothing and inexplicably batting fifth, Jose Vidro stopped providing... whatever it was they deluded themselves into thinking he could provide from the DH spot, Carlos Silva nearly outdid Barry Zito as one of the worst contracts in MLB, and their rotation fell apart completely even without Bedard's own nonparticipation.

 

Bedard was promised a contender and instead the Mariners collapsed utterly -- thanks in large part to the deal that brought him there.

[Dojji]

Hitter's paradise compared to the NL West.

 

I wasn't even gonna bring it up.

 

But you're just being stupid.

 

Harden was successful before in the AL, so what in heaven's name are you talking about?

 

In the AL West, yes, which also hosts several of the larger parks in our league.

 

When a guy has an ERA of 4 in the NL Central, why are we assuming he belongs in the AL East? If the NL Central is a hitter's paradise, we're a hitter's Utopia.

 

Furthermore, why exactly are we playing the my-division-is-scarier game without acknowledging Bedard's prior experience in the AL East while playing for a team that faced both the Yankees and the Red Sox?

 

 

 

 

It's not velocity.

 

He's lost break and velocity on all his pitches.

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/pitchfx.aspx?playerid=126&position=P

 

Most of the changes seem to be within a standard deviation of the mean.

 

I mean, I'm supposed to be worried about a fastball velocity drop from 92.1 to 91.6 over two years that you yourself admit represent smaller sample sizes?

 

Not to mention that most of these numbers have a minimal baseline at best from Bedard's healthy years to form a basis for comparison.

 

This falls under Mark Twain's "damn lies and statistics" heading as far as I'm concerned.

 

I'm talking pure stuff, and non-torn labrums.

 

Don't try to weasel yourself out of the meat of the argument.

 

What argument?

[Emmz]

Yeah' date=' but Bedard's still done it twice, and two years more recently.[/quote']

 

Really? Does it matter that he's done it twice? Last I checked, Bedard's injured just as much, if not more, and his velocity numbers have gone down. Sign of decline

 

I'm not trying to. I'm still trying to figure out exactly why Dipre is making such an issue over this. The hypocrisy of defending the acquisition Harden while simultaneously bashing the FO for bringing in veteran question marks makes my jaw drop.

 

Harden's upside is tremendous, and I completely advocate going after Harden, considering the fact that he's proven in the AL, and Bedard and JD are fragile, and in my opinion don't have as good of stuff as Harden. I think that alone is adequate enough for advocating going after Harden

 

Of course, I recognize that teams take chances with personnel all the time and that we are in a great position than any other team (yes, even NYY) to take this kind of risk because of the stability in the rest of our rotation, so I don't have a similar problem.

 

And Bedard and JD are just as big of risks, without the upside. As was stated earlier, I think Bedard could lose the 'tude about not wanting to play for his team. That strikes you, when a guy feels as if he's not properly motivated. He's being paid, and he shouldn't piss and moan about his team's performance, he should go out and do his job, and he shouldn't bitch. Like I said before, it was the Mariners.

 

I would overpay for neither of Harden or Bedard.

 

Huh? No one said you were "overpaying" for anything, but the fact that you don't think it's out of the question for us to get both is startling.

 

Which is why I brougth up Duchscherer. Who I would mostly acquire as a reliever to replace the (proably) outgoing Takashi Saito

 

And as said before, we don't look for a reliever. We're looking for a 5th starter, not a guy who goes back and forth spot-starter.

 

You're having trouble processing the potential of one of the best, richest, and most financially stable franchises in the sport being able to afford multiple free agents in the same season?

 

You think that that's all we're going to have to give up? Don't even understand that we have other needs? We can't just blow our entire system to bolster our roster to one of the best in history. It's out of the question.

 

I mean seriously, we spent more on Daisuke alone than the total contracts Bedard and Harden are likely to bring down combined.

 

Read the above statement. We have other needs, and it's not going to happen. Technically, you're right, it could, but why would you even bring that up? There's not even the slightest chance of it happening.