Billy Wagner

[RWTP24]

Pap a cub next year???

[ORS]

I didn't even think of Philly. That's a good one. It could work with Lidge's latest meltdown. It's the 40 save curse for him:lol:

 

I mentioned the Cubs. I think the make a lot of sense. But I will admit I am on the record saying Papelbon is a Cub next year;)

 

I'm with ORS, The Nationals and/or Houston would absolutely suck. Along with any other tams 1st rounder.

 

Also we have to consider the chance a team signs him that has alreasy signed a FA that out ranks Wagner. There too the Sox would be looking at a 1A instead of a 1 I believe.

Who makes the bullpen next year?

 

You are on the record trading Papelbon to the Cubs. You want them to let Wagner go for the picks. Bard is on the way out in your trips to La-La land for Felix, or Hanley, or whomever.

 

Can you reconcile all this mental diarrhea with a functional bullpen?

[RWTP24]

Who makes the bullpen next year?

 

You are on the record trading Papelbon to the Cubs. You want them to let Wagner go for the picks. Bard is on the way out in your trips to La-La land for Felix, or Hanley, or whomever.

 

Can you reconcile all this mental diarrhea with a functional bullpen?

 

 

Sounds like we are all going to have to suit up. :lol:

[Dojji]

I didn't even think of Philly. That's a good one. It could work with Lidge's latest meltdown. It's the 40 save curse for him:lol:

 

I mentioned the Cubs. I think the make a lot of sense. But I will admit I am on the record saying Papelbon is a Cub next year;)

 

I'm with ORS, The Nationals and/or Houston would absolutely suck. Along with any other tams 1st rounder.

 

Also we have to consider the chance a team signs him that has alreasy signed a FA that out ranks Wagner. There too the Sox would be looking at a 1A instead of a 1 I believe.

 

We get a supplemental rounder and the team's top remaining nonsupplemental pick. In other words, if a team has signed another Type A and already forfeited its #1, we get a 1s and a 2.

[Dojji]

Who makes the bullpen next year?

 

You are on the record trading Papelbon to the Cubs. You want them to let Wagner go for the picks. Bard is on the way out in your trips to La-La land for Felix, or Hanley, or whomever.

 

Can you reconcile all this mental diarrhea with a functional bullpen?

 

Delcarmen, Ramirez, Oki, are all still under contract. Closer's role settled between those three, there's a few FA's we can go after to fill out the rest of the pen. Maybe Bowden and Tazawa can fill in long innings leaving 2 holes needing to be filled from the FA pile. Probably we keep hold of Saito and hope he's got one more year in his arm and look for a half decent LOOGY to fill the last spot.

 

 

My guess is Manny Delcarmen would wind up as closer. He fits the profile better than RR or Oki.

 

Delcarmen

Oki

RR

Saito

Grabow

Tazawa

Bowden

 

It's a little thin on the top and a little thin at the end, but not the worst in the big leagues by a long stretch -- and arguably better than our bullpen in 2004.

[ORS]

Ramirez is the only reliever in that bunch I see continued success out of. After years of struggling to put together a top notch BP, they finally have, and they have most of them under contract for next year. Let's not mess with it. Improve other areas of the team without disturbing what's working.

[Dojji]

I don't disagree. I just took your premise as a challenge.

 

I don't know why people don't trust Delcarmen though. I think he would have the ability to be an average to somewhat above average closer. He's not any real threat to render Papelbon redundant, but if he had to get the job done himself he probably could.

[RWTP24]

Delcarmen, Ramirez, Oki, are all still under contract. Closer's role settled between those three, there's a few FA's we can go after to fill out the rest of the pen. Maybe Bowden and Tazawa can fill in long innings leaving 2 holes needing to be filled from the FA pile. Probably we keep hold of Saito and hope he's got one more year in his arm and look for a half decent LOOGY to fill the last spot.

 

 

My guess is Manny Delcarmen would wind up as closer. He fits the profile better than RR or Oki.

 

Delcarmen

Oki

RR

Saito

Grabow

Tazawa

Bowden

 

It's a little thin on the top and a little thin at the end, but not the worst in the big leagues by a long stretch -- and arguably better than our bullpen in 2004.

 

 

 

If the Sox are going to get rid of Pap (which is not going to happen) they would keep Wagner. If they above is the BP for next year, I hope we all aren't planning on the Sox winning very much.

[Cocos Disciples]

Delcarmen needs to cut the baserunners if he's going to close. A 1.51 WHIP is awful.

[Dojji]

Oh come on now, RTP, don't be so melodramatic. that's an average bullpen. What it isn't is the elite shutdown cadre of relief pitchers we're used to.

 

Delcarmen needs to cut the walks if he's going to close. A 1.51 WHIP is awful.

 

Granted. Delcarmen has had to pitch around too many mistakes this year, but I think it's much like the thing with Papelbon, they've gone deep into the last two consecutive postseasons and I'm not shocked to see the workload start to pile up on those two in particular.

 

That's one of the reasons Theo jumped on RR in the first place. We needed that third righty workhorse to take pressure off Paps and MDC.

[RWTP24]

Delcarmen needs to cut the walks if he's going to close. A 1.51 WHIP is awful.

 

Good thing he will never be a closer..

 

Have you guys been watching him? He has not pitched well at all lately.

[Dojji]

Good thing he will never be a closer..

 

Have you guys been watching him? He has not pitched well at all lately.

 

You can't judge any pitcher just on "lately." Relievers are just about the streakiest things in the known universe.

 

Delcarmen has been a consistently above average pitcher in this league since his rookie year. Even with his struggles this year that hasn't changed.

[RWTP24]

Oh come on now, RTP, don't be so melodramatic. that's an average bullpen. What it isn't is the elite shutdown cadre of relief pitchers we're used to.

 

 

 

I'm not being melodramatic! That is a s***** BP. You really think the Sox could win with that BP?????

 

 

Look at the BP now.... WAY better than the one you are talking about and we are going right down to the wire to get into the playoffs. When we do get in the playoffs I really don't think we will go far, unless the first half Sox come out of hibernation.

[RWTP24]

You can't judge any pitcher just on "lately." Relievers are just about the streakiest things in the known universe.

 

Delcarmen has been a consistently above average pitcher in this league since his rookie year. Even with his struggles this year that hasn't changed.

 

Well, IMO he will never close, at least for the Red Sox. Theo would keep Wagner long before letting MD closer ball games.

[BSN07]

Who makes the bullpen next year?

 

You are on the record trading Papelbon to the Cubs. You want them to let Wagner go for the picks. Bard is on the way out in your trips to La-La land for Felix, or Hanley, or whomever.

 

Can you reconcile all this mental diarrhea with a functional bullpen?

 

I never mentioned Bard in a Felix "La la la" deal.

 

I also said if Papelbon is dealt. Bard won't be.

 

Bard is in line for being the closer once Papelbon is gone, and that's this year or next. If Bard isn't ready, Wagner might not be a bad fall back option.

 

 

 

 

Was that enough Pepto to clear up the mental diarrhea for you?

[SCM33]

You can't judge any pitcher just on "lately." Relievers are just about the streakiest things in the known universe.

 

Delcarmen has been a consistently above average pitcher in this league since his rookie year. Even with his struggles this year that hasn't changed.

 

Delcarmen has a career WHIP of 1.319. Thats pretty terrible for a closer. Papelbon is in a down year and his WHIP this season is still better than Delcarmens career numbers.....in a down year.

[TheKilo]

Delcarmen in no way shape or form should ever be closer for this team.

[RWTP24]

Delcarmen in no way shape or form should ever be closer for this team.

 

Agreed!

[BSN07]

Delcarmen in no way shape or form should ever be closer for this team.

 

I don't see Delcarmen closing. Maybe on a another team, but not in Boston. I would think both Bard and Ramirez would be ahead of him for internal replacements.

 

I hope everyone is not thinking I would want them to deal Papelbon just to make room. This isn't the case. If they can't get anything to make it worth it back. Then they shouldn't.

 

Would anyone trade Papelbon for Josh Vitters straight up?

 

I'm not saying Vitters is available or trying to turn this into "nappy fantasy land". I'm just trying to gauge his/Papelbon's values from everyone and maybe find out at what point they would feel there is enough of a return to pull the trigger so to speak.

[ORS]

Insanity. Vitters just got his first taste of advanced A ball and put up a .604 OPS in 189 ABs. Papelbon is one of the top 5 closers in the league and is young. Even if you think Vitters is going to be the next Mike Schmidt, and he's got a long way to go to get there, you aren't getting anything near market value for a player like Papelbon.

[Dojji]

I'm not particularly enamored of the Cubs farm system to begin with. Their track record is not good. Other than Ryan Theriot they haven't really had that many players live up to the hype for a long time.

 

If Paps was going to the Cubs, I'd want Aramis Ramirez coming back. Probably Ramirez+.

[BSN07]

Insanity. Vitters just got his first taste of advanced A ball and put up a .604 OPS in 189 ABs. Papelbon is one of the top 5 closers in the league and is young. Even if you think Vitters is going to be the next Mike Schmidt' date=' and he's got a long way to go to get there, you aren't getting anything near market value for a player like Papelbon.[/quote']

 

Ok that seems reasonable. So if would have to be Vitters+.

 

He has talent though. And would be better the any 3B prospect the Sox have currently.

 

Since we are just shooting the breeze here. In your opinion what should be the return on not just Papelbon, but say a top 5 closer with one year left on his deal?

[ORS]

Something more than what they'd get with a 1 and 1s pick.

[Dojji]

Ok that seems reasonable. So if would have to be Vitters+.

 

He has talent though. And would be better the any 3B prospect the Sox have currently.

 

Since we are just shooting the breeze here. In your opinion what should be the return on not just Papelbon, but say a top 5 closer with one year left on his deal?

 

OK so what are you talking about specifically here? You talking about picking up Wagner's option and trading him? because that's a possibility. As long as he wound up where he could close I doubt Wagner would mind that much.

 

As to your actual question I'd say it depends on a ton of factors. The age of the closer, the state of the market, the state of the league, how in vogue the "position" of closer is among baseball minds at the time, and perhaps most importantly, how much potential buyer teams believe in their current idea of who should be their closer. Right now I'd say that a good closer type won't fetch top dollar because most of the teams that need a good closer have one and most teams that don't aren't the ones that believe in trading for well-remunerated veterans

[BSN07]

I'm not particularly enamored of the Cubs farm system to begin with. Their track record is not good. Other than Ryan Theriot they haven't really had that many players live up to the hype for a long time.

This is true. I have other suggestions, but I don't want to get to dreamy and off topic. ORS has been kind so far LOL

If Paps was going to the Cubs, I'd want Aramis Ramirez coming back. Probably Ramirez+.

Not a bad option. There are a few veterans on the that team I could see the Sox being interested in.

Something more than what they'd get with a 1 and 1s pick.

Can't argue that

OK so what are you talking about specifically here? You talking about picking up Wagner's option and trading him? because that's a possibility. As long as he wound up where he could close I doubt Wagner would mind that much.

 

As to your actual question I'd say it depends on a ton of factors. The age of the closer, the state of the market, the state of the league, how in vogue the "position" of closer is among baseball minds at the time, and perhaps most importantly, how much potential buyer teams believe in their current idea of who should be their closer. Right now I'd say that a good closer type won't fetch top dollar because most of the teams that need a good closer have one and most teams that don't aren't the ones that believe in trading for well-remunerated veterans

 

No I was talking about trading Papelbon. Bringing back Wagner if the Sox felt an in house option wasn't the answer.

 

I would think,

 

Cubs

Philly

Brewers

Houston

LAA(I know they have Fuentes, but still)

Cleveland

Detroit

 

Would all have measurable interest. He would most certainly be the best available CL for a team in search of one.

 

But that's all I have to say on the subject for now, and in this thread. I have wandered close enough to turning this thread turn into another "what if trade scenario". I'll quit while I'm ahead

[Dojji]

 

 

No I was talking about trading Papelbon. Bringing back Wagner if the Sox felt an in house option wasn't the answer.

 

I would think,

 

Cubs

 

They believe in Marmol eventually securing the closer's role.

 

Philly

 

A good candidate, but I suspect they'll go FA rather than surrendering a lot of talent.

 

Brewers

 

Depends on how they actually feel about their chances to contend next year.

 

Houston

 

off hand I'm going to say no. They might be that deluded, but I wouldn't guess they were.

LAA(I know they have Fuentes, but still)

 

The Angels don't believe in making deals for someone else's big names. What they can't sign off free agency (which they use VERY well) they'll try to develop themselves. Teixeira was an exception born of desperation. They won't do that very often.

 

Cleveland

 

lol right maybe in 2-3 years. Not next year. Likely as not their next closer is already on their roster somewhere.

 

Detroit

 

 

Detroit doesn't emphasize the closer's role. I don't think their management really believes in it. The only reason they'd go for Paps is if they think they can stretch him back out.

[BSN07]

They believe in Marmol eventually securing the closer's role.

 

Fools lol

 

A good candidate, but I suspect they'll go FA rather than surrendering a lot of talent.

 

They have some interesting talent. the new GM has shown he'll make a big move.

 

Depends on how they actually feel about their chances to contend next year.

 

 

 

off hand I'm going to say no. They might be that deluded, but I wouldn't guess they were.

They gave Carlos Lee a 100M. Just saying.

 

The Angels don't believe in making deals for someone else's big names. What they can't sign off free agency (which they use VERY well) they'll try to develop themselves. Teixeira was an exception born of desperation. They won't do that very often.

I would put them very low on the list to be honest.

[Dojji]

Fools lol

 

This is the Cubs we're talking about. So, yeah.

 

They have some interesting talent. the new GM has shown he'll make a big move.

 

Yes but if they have the choice between Jonathan Papelbon in exchange for 3 prime prospects, as well as having to sign him too, or Jose Valverde for Type A compensation, you can make an eloquent argument for diminishing returns.

[PWNdroia]

I actually thought Wagner would be a bust to be honest, but he's been great so far. Glad we picked him up.

[Ray10]

Delcarmen in no way shape or form should ever be closer for this team.

 

 

AHMEN to that man. To me Daniel Bard is gonna be the closer of the future man. The kid is just raw and nasty when he pitches.