8/20 @ Toronto

[Dojji]

I saw some baiting there, but not by Jacoby

[jsc1973]

Some guys are durable. Others are not. It's got nothing to do with macho stupid s***. Some guys like Jeter go to the post everyday. The manager knows that he can count on him day in and day out. The fans who buy tickets know that they will see jeter. The manager never has to beg Jeter to stay in a game because he has no one on the bench to take his place. Why are some guys more durable than others? I don't know. Drew doesn't play any harder than Jeter. He doesn't get hit by more pitches than Jeter' date=' so how do you explain how one guy will play 160 games a year and another guy averages about 120 games a year. I don't know. Do you have an explanation other than one guy is more durable than another? If you do, share.[/quote']

 

It's more a matter of genetics than anything else. Some people can take the wear and tear of a 162-game baseball season more than others. For whatever reason, Derek Jeter doesn't have things go pop in his body when he dives for a ball (not that he ever does...), slings the ball as hard as he can to first base, or sliding hard, or any other physically taxing activity on a baseball field. Those things happen to Drew from time to time, though.

 

Some players get hurt a lot because their work ethic is poor, and those players deserve to get dogged by the fans. But you can tell who those guys are. For those who remember the 1980s, Bob Horner was the best example of this I ever saw. Horner played 120 games a season because he was lazy and didn't work hard. I've never heard people speak of Drew in the way they used to talk about Horner. So I lean toward thinking Drew is just inherently less durable than some other guys are.

[Keeper]

JE, why are you putting words in a700's mouth? He never called Drew a pussy. He said he's not the most durable player in the world. That is a fact.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

JE' date=' why are you putting words in a700's mouth? He never called Drew a pussy. He said he's not the most durable player in the world. That is a fact.[/quote']

And he's slagging him for it. Drew's not the most durable, yes, but this is hardly a Jason Schmidt situation. If missing 100 games (roughly 33 a year, out of 162) makes you plastic-boned, when then this is a game of very brittle players.

[jacksonianmarch]

missing 100 games in 3 yrs is a lot of time missed.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

missing 100 games in 3 yrs is a lot of time missed.

Yeah, and Drew's 2008 season is what balloons it to that level. He's missed 18 this season, and missed 20 in 2007, and even those numbers a bit high considering Tito's regular days off issued to his starters. People who label him an injury prone slug only look at 2008 to form their conclusion.

[a700hitter]

We? Who is we? I only criticize someone's play if they appear to be dogging it' date=' or in a random, reactionary post/statement in the game thread (or while watching the game) that has little bearing on my actual opinion. I support finding replacements for players who aren't performing well or up to standards, but very rarely do I [i']criticize[/i] the player.

 

Slamming players for performance, aside from if you think they're dogging it, is unreasonable and toolish.

I agree. I've posted it here several times that I have never booed one of our guys. It's not the player's fault that he stinks. When I blame the FO for putting out a substandard product, others insist that the players bear the responsibility. Different viewpoints. What can I tell you.

 

Meaningless. Drew is doing nothing here that he wasn't doing before arriving in Boston. His contract makes him the cheap and easy target.

... and based on his prior performance, a lot of people have the opinion that the Sox overpaid for him. I believe that e that they overpaid, but I am glad that they got him. That may confuse some people. You seem to be confused into thinking that I don't like J.D. I love that he is on the team, but facts are facts, he has a hard time staying on the field. I don't like that. Why must that equate to blame. That's toolish. If my car doesn't start in the morning, I don't like that. Do I blame the car? Do I get mad at the car? Stop putting words in my mouth about J.D. I like him, but his durability is not good. His record bears this out.

 

But over the past three years' date=' his games played to possible games played is pretty similar to Drew's. So he must an undurable chump, right?[/quote']As I said, Ortiz's age and durability will be issues that affect his marketability and value. You are the one using the term "undurable chump." But that's not baiting me... is it? Doji, you don't see this as baiting either... right? I would never use the wterm "undurable chump" , especially since "undurable" is not a word. If you are going to attempt to put words in my mouth, please use real words.

[a700hitter]

It's more a matter of genetics than anything else. Some people can take the wear and tear of a 162-game baseball season more than others. For whatever reason, Derek Jeter doesn't have things go pop in his body when he dives for a ball (not that he ever does...), slings the ball as hard as he can to first base, or sliding hard, or any other physically taxing activity on a baseball field. Those things happen to Drew from time to time, though.

 

Some players get hurt a lot because their work ethic is poor, and those players deserve to get dogged by the fans. But you can tell who those guys are. For those who remember the 1980s, Bob Horner was the best example of this I ever saw. Horner played 120 games a season because he was lazy and didn't work hard. I've never heard people speak of Drew in the way they used to talk about Horner. So I lean toward thinking Drew is just inherently less durable than some other guys are.

I agree with this 100%.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

... and based on his prior performance' date=' a lot of people have the opinion that the Sox overpaid for him. I believe that e that they overpaid, but I am glad that they got him. That may confuse some people. You seem to be confused into thinking that I don't like J.D. I love that he is on the team, but facts are facts, he has a hard time staying on the field. I don't like that. Why must that equate to blame. That's toolish. If my car doesn't start in the morning, I don't like that. Do I blame the car? Do I get mad at the car? Stop putting words in my mouth about J.D. I like him, but his durability is not good. His record bears this out.[/quote']

 

The record of him missing 40 combined games in 2007 and thus far in 2009, which a good chunk of those being simple days off (something I may or may not have already said 50 times)? That dictates that he can't stay on the field. All you have to go by is his 2008 season, which was injury plagued. If that sole season is the reason he's injury prone, I can't wait to hear what you think of Trot in this regard.

 

As I said, Ortiz's age and durability will be issues that affect his marketability and value. You are the one using the term "undurable chump." But that's not baiting me... is it? Doji, you don't see this as baiting either... right?

 

But is Ortiz unable to stay on the field, like Drew? Past three seasons are awfully similar in terms of games played.

 

I would never use the wterm "undurable chump" , especially since "undurable" is not a word.

 

*claps*

 

If you are going to attempt to put words in my mouth, please use real words.

 

lol

[a700hitter]

The record of him missing 40 combined games in 2007 and thus far in 2009' date=' which a good chunk of those being simple days off (something I may or may not have already said 50 times)? That dictates that he can't stay on the field. All you have to go by is his 2008 season, which was injury plagued. If that sole season is the reason he's injury prone, I can't wait to hear what you think of Trot in this regard.[/quote']Last night when I compared Drew's durability to Yastremski's you told me that it was irrelevant and that you must have been hallucinating, because you couldn't believe that I had just posted that. Please tell me how Trot's durability in this discussion is any more relevant than Yaz's. I believe that you have just been owned.

 

But is Ortiz unable to stay on the field' date=' like Drew? Past three seasons are awfully similar in terms of games played.[/quote']I've said it twice already, but here we go again. Ortiz's age and durability have become issues. How many more times do you want me to say it? If you insist on calling him an "undurable chump", well good for you. Those are not my words. Owned again.

 

I say to you, Good Day.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Last night when I compared Drew's durability to Yastremski's you told me that it was irrelevant and that you must have been hallucinating' date=' because you couldn't believe that I had just posted that. Please tell me how Trot's durability in this discussion is any more relevant than Yaz's. I believe that you have just been owned.[/quote']

 

Okay, my ******** meter just exploded.

 

YOU brought up Yaz as a rebuttal to me stating that Drew has only had one season here that anyone paying a sufficient amount of attention could call injury-plagued. You did this, presumably, no likely, as a reference to how much of gritty dirtdog Yaz was, and how much of a non-gritty softie Drew is. Though I'm 100% sure you'll deny this.

 

I went on wonder how you felt about Trot Nixon's (completely matches the aforementioned dirtdog mentality) latter years in Boston, and if J.D. Drew has durability issues, what Trot Nixon's 04, 05, and 06 would register as. Conveniently, and somewhat expectedly, you dumped out and just said 'DATS EERELIVINT', leading me to believe that you'd hate to label the TUFFGLUTCHGRIT posterboy and favorite of many monumentally stupid pinkhat fans (no, that's not directed at anyone in particular, so don't even try it) as injury prone, while being all too happy to look for a way to slag Drew and call him unreliable, because he doesn't play like a tuff guy. Blamestorming 101. Once again, I'm positive that you'll shoot all this down and cook up an even more asinine post.

 

Quite obviously, you couldn't be troubled to brainstorm about why bringing up a guy who played 40 f***ING YEARS AGO could possibly be irrelevant to Drew's so-called injury plagues, so I think your issuing of ownage has been nullified here. Not that the term was really properly used in the first place.

 

I've said it twice already, but here we go again. Ortiz's age and durability have become issues. How many more times do you want me to say it? If you insist on calling him an "undurable chump", well good for you. Those are not my words. Owned again.

 

His durability is a concern now? Why, because he's played 112 of a possible 120 games this year, played in 150 games in EVERY season from 04-07, and had that one wrist injury in 2008 that kept out two months? That suddenly elevates him to oft-injured, unreliable pariah status? Real smooth. I think you have 'durability issues' and 'performance issues' scrambled.

 

You also completely failed to notice that 'undurable chump' was my way of making fun of your allegations by making up words to reflect your feelings. So that is also fairly amusing, and makes your declaration of owning me that much more hilarious.

 

I say to you, Good Day.

 

L0L GO H0ME I OHND U!!!!!11111

[Mr Crunchy]

2008? look at his entire career, never not once has he played in as many games as johnny damon has.

You would think thats impossible for a guy who plays a similar position.

I can live with the 2/3 of a season he plays if he produces but this year for whatever reason he hasnt.

Last year he had one of the best months ive ever seen a boston player have and he essentially carried our team for 6 weeks but then he disappeared sort of like a kid with autism, 1 day hes shining bright then the next day he's off in his own world.

Ya the obp is there and thats nice but a 5 hitter needs to drive in runs,especially when 3 of the 4 guys hitting in front of you are hitting .300 or close to it.

Maybe the lack of a defined role in the batting order plays a part in his inconsistancy?

i cant figure this guy out but i dont see how a guy in that clubhouse can walk by a schilling or a lowell or a lester and say ""cant go today fella's i tweaked my quad running down that fly ball last night""

what does that do to the clubhouse moral? maybe nothing but maybe it takes the sense of urgency out of a couple of guys....4-4 last night with 2runs and 3rbi? just maybe the light went on just in time for this weekend...Andy Petitte, 1-0 with a 1.19 era in his last 3 starts against brad penny who has won 1 game in his last 10 starts and the game is at a pickem...Ny's lefties wont have the luxury of that hurricane vaccum in the bronx that turns warning track flies into upper deck Hr's but they are on fire, hard not to like them this evening and tomorrow against DiceK lite...

Sunday Beckett goes and i suspect that will be the only game the sox will be favored in.

We need 2 of 3 to maintain self respect.

[Mr Crunchy]

What year did Drew play in 150 games?

Drew makes Manny Ramirez look like Lou Gherig for chrissakes

[Dojji]

2008? look at his entire career' date=' never not once has he played in as many games as johnny damon has.[/quote']

 

Not many people have. Damon is one of the most durable players in the league. A lot of players who are considered durable play fewer games than Damon.

 

You would think thats impossible for a guy who plays a similar position.

 

Centerfield and right field are about as similar as third base and first base. That is to say, some things held in common but not really very similar at all.

 

 

I can live with the 2/3 of a season he plays if he produces but this year for whatever reason he hasnt.

 

Drew has been quite productive this year, well in line with his career averages in slash stats and above those averages in games played. The only place he's suffered a little is batting average.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

2008? look at his entire career' date=' never not once has he played in as many games as johnny damon has.[/quote']

 

Why should his entire career be taken into account for something he currently is, or isn't? Guys are healthy at the beginning of their careers and become injury prone later on, and vice versa.

 

You would think thats impossible for a guy who plays a similar position.

 

Outfield.

 

I can live with the 2/3 of a season he plays if he produces but this year for whatever reason he hasnt.

 

.375 OBP, .844 OPS, 15 HR.

 

Ya the obp is there and thats nice but a 5 hitter needs to drive in runs,especially when 3 of the 4 guys hitting in front of you are hitting .300 or close to it.

 

When is getting on base, NOT MAKING AN OUT, ever a bad thing?

 

It's not his fault if Francona enters him in a spot in the lineup other than what suits his strengths (working the count, taking walks, getting on base, not making outs).

 

Maybe the lack of a defined role in the batting order plays a part in his inconsistancy?

i cant figure this guy out but i dont see how a guy in that clubhouse can walk by a schilling or a lowell or a lester and say ""cant go today fella's i tweaked my quad running down that fly ball last night""

 

An injury. Some guys can play with pain, others can't.

[Dojji]

What year did Drew play in 150 games?

 

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/Y/Kevin-Youkilis.shtml

 

With all the useful things he does for us and all his versatility you'd think he could find his way into the lineup 150 times a year.

 

What a wimp.

[rhet]

Drew doesn't have the passion to stay in the lineup when he's nicked. Most guys do, but he doesn't.

 

Notwithstanding his fragility, he just doesn't perform very well when he's in. A .250 batting average? Pathetic RISP average? Yeah, he works a walk better than average, but so do dozens of other mediocre ballplayers. Big deal.

 

There's really not much to debate here. The numbers don't lie. When his contract is up two and a half years from now, Theo will make similar comments as he made with Lugo. He didn't perform the way we expected when we signed him.

[BSN07]

Drew doesn't have the passion to stay in the lineup when he's nicked. Most guys do, but he doesn't.

 

Notwithstanding his fragility, he just doesn't perform very well when he's in. A .250 batting average? Pathetic RISP average? Yeah, he works a walk better than average, but so do dozens of other mediocre ballplayers. Big deal.

 

There's really not much to debate here. The numbers don't lie. When his contract is up two and a half years from now, Theo will make similar comments as he made with Lugo. He didn't perform the way we expected when we signed him.

 

Your post became irrelevant here.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Drew doesn't have the passion to stay in the lineup when he's nicked. Most guys do' date=' but he doesn't.[/quote']

 

Meaningless straw-grasping.

 

Notwithstanding his fragility, he just doesn't perform very well when he's in. A .250 batting average? Pathetic RISP average? Yeah, he works a walk better than average, but so do dozens of other mediocre ballplayers. Big deal.

 

Batting average sucks. His OBP is .375, which is pretty good. Batting average is merely a portion of on-base percentage.

 

RISP average is useless, since it's a stat that tries to quantify 'clutch', which is a phantom quality. Batters also have zero control over whether there's runners on base when he's up, so you can't credit or discredit him for something he has no control over.

 

There's really not much to debate here. The numbers don't lie.

 

I agree. .375 OBP, .844 OPS, 15 HR (should get 20, would fall in line with his career averages) is pretty respectable, and there's no reasonable way you accuse him of not producing.

[BSN07]

Meaningless straw-grasping.

 

 

 

Batting average sucks. His OBP is .375, which is pretty good. Batting average is merely a portion of on-base percentage.

 

RISP average is useless, since it's a stat that tries to quantify 'clutch', which is a phantom quality. Batters also have zero control over whether there's runners on base when he's up, so you can't credit or discredit him for something he has no control over.

 

 

 

I agree. .375 OBP, .844 OPS, 15 HR (should get 20, would fall in line with his career averages) is pretty respectable, and there's no reasonable way you accuse him of not producing.

 

Some will just never get it.

 

I honestly thing more people are biased against him because of his contract. All they can think is "he's the highest paid player, but he isn't the best player on the team".

 

Then they breathe through their mouths a couple times, and a migraine forms right in the middle of their foreheads.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Some will just never get it.

 

I honestly thing more people are biased against him because of his contract. All they can think is "he's the highest paid player, but he isn't the best player on the team".

 

Then they breathe through their mouths a couple times, and a migraine forms right in the middle of their foreheads.

He also doesn't take wild, brainless hacks at every pitch he sees, doesn't have 20 pounds of pine tar on his batting helmet, doesn't speak with the tr00 ballplayer drawl, and doesn't have excessive amounts of dirt and grass stains on his uniform.

 

In other words, he's a soft, unclutch, ungritty infidel worthy of nothing but contempt for his... plate discipline, and his... WALKS... and... NOT MAKING OUTS... and.... ugh, what a talentless waste of skin.

[rhet]

RISP average is useless, since it's a stat that tries to quantify 'clutch', which is a phantom quality. Batters also have zero control over whether there's runners on base when he's up, so you can't credit or discredit him for something he has no control over.

 

This doesn't make sense. RISP average doesn't credit or discredit when nobody's on base. It is a measure of what happens only when runners are in scoring position.

 

It's a simple stat that shows Drew consistently hits worse when the team needs it most.

[rhet]

Some will just never get it.

 

I honestly thing more people are biased against him because of his contract. All they can think is "he's the highest paid player, but he isn't the best player on the team".

 

Then they breathe through their mouths a couple times, and a migraine forms right in the middle of their foreheads.

 

People who de-value all stats in favor of simple on-base percentage are missing a chromosome.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

This doesn't make sense. RISP average doesn't credit or discredit when nobody's on base. It is a measure of what happens only when runners are in scoring position.

 

It attempts to quantify clutch. It can't be done. Nobody hits better or worse in certain situations with runners on certain bases and X number of outs. If they do make a good at bat and the runs score, the runners just happened to be on base for it - the batter isn't to blame or to praise for anything pertaining to runners, except maybe bunts. Clutch and every synonym for it is nothing more than a farce.

 

It's a simple stat that shows Drew consistently hits worse when the team needs it most.

 

No, he hits worse in random situations that formulate before he comes to the plate and that he has zero control over.

[rhet]

It attempts to quantify clutch. It can't be done. Nobody hits better or worse in certain situations with runners on certain bases and X number of outs. If they do make a good at bat and the runs score, the runners just happened to be on base for it - the batter isn't to blame or to praise for anything pertaining to runners, except maybe bunts. Clutch and every synonym for it is nothing more than a farce.

 

 

 

No, he hits worse in random situations that formulate before he comes to the plate and that he has zero control over.

 

 

Having read enough on the topic, both pro and con, I couldn't disagree more.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

People who de-value all stats in favor of simple on-base percentage are missing a chromosome.

Batting average and RBI are two of the very worst baseball statistics there are. Batting average is a section of on-base percentage (the measure of how often a player doesn't make outs), and there are players with high OBP and low BA, and vice versa (the former are valuable offensive players, the latter not so much). So batting average holds no water, anywhere.

 

RBI is just an insult to common sense. Why in f***'s name would you credit the batter for advancing runners he had no hand in putting on base?

 

Not all stats are equal in importance. Almost every stat regularly discussed on ESPN is a bunch of worthless horseshit.

 

Having a good on-base percentage means you're not making as many outs as the guy who has a bad on-base percentage. I'd say this is pretty telling, and its simplicity is pretty convenient.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Having read enough on the topic' date=' both pro and con, I couldn't disagree more.[/quote']

Do tell.

 

Clutch is an epidemic of logical failure that extends across all sports, not just baseball.

[rhet]

Batting average and RBI are two of the very worst baseball statistics there are. Batting average is a section of on-base percentage (the measure of how often a player doesn't make outs), and there are players with high OBP and low BA, and vice versa (the former are valuable offensive players, the latter not so much). So batting average holds no water, anywhere.

 

RBI is just an insult to common sense. Why in f***'s name would you credit the batter for advancing runners he had no hand in putting on base?

 

Not all stats are equal in importance. Almost every stat regularly discussed on ESPN is a bunch of worthless horseshit.

 

Having a good on-base percentage means you're not making as many outs as the guy who has a bad on-base percentage. I'd say this is pretty telling, and its simplicity is pretty convenient.

 

The object of the game is to score runs. Some guys are better at knocking in baserunners than other guys. There's a lot more evidence supporting this fact than the converse.

[Mr Crunchy]

The man has all the passion of a 10.00 bronx whore turning trix the night before rent is due.

thats half the problem, his image of a robot.

the other issues arise from the man not playing as if he were a track star.

thats the other half of his image problem, hes a ****.

I dont give a s*** what his name is, i root for the name on the front, not the back.

He is a disappointment, he was a disappointment wherever he's played and this isnt debatable.

All i care about as far as this cheese dick is concerned is what he can do for us from here on out.

His 45rbi dont cut it in the 5 hole so whats the argument about?

Theres a thread here to DFA Ortiz and hes got 25 more RBI in his worst season ever.

DFA Ortiz but Drew is God? Do you guys jerk off with sandpaper mittens too?

s***, evidently I missed out on the glue huffing session that occured here recently.

In any event and in all honesty and sincerity Drew needs to get focused on bringing us to the playoffs on his back. we cant afford his candy ass efforts down the stretch, we cant afford his days off and we need his f***ing bat more than ever and thats a horrifying feeling for us who have watched this guy get tossed around by perennial contenders his entire career.

StLouis LA and Atlanta all let him walk without thinking twice.

Aint it strange to see all these genious GM's passing on a talent like Drew?

I forgive everyone but I forget nothing.

Heres hoping his s*** is together for this weekend after a great evening last night and heres hoping he has a hot 2 months because this club is starved for his power game to improve down the stretch or we can say goodbye to another year that coulda been.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

The object of the game is to score runs. Some guys are better at knocking in baserunners than other guys. There's a lot more evidence supporting this fact than the converse.

 

Except they aren't. The guys that get hits with runners in scoring position... the runners just happened to be on base. The batter did nothing to get them there in the first place, all he did was produce a hit that the baserunners scored on. No one is a better or worse hitter with runners on base. Unfortunately, if you happen to get a hit or two with these runners in position, everyone will crown you the newest clutch king of baseball with some incredible knack for improving himself with runners on base. Ridiculous.

 

Oh and I would say not making outs goes a long way towards creating runs, aye?