Red Sox Re-Acquire Alex Gonzalez

[Spudboy]

Wow. 232 posts on the acquisition of Gonzalez. I've read all the posts and have nothing new to add except my opinion.

 

Gonzalez was the best defensive SS that I ever saw play for the Sox in 40+ years of watching them play. He was a noodle bat then and from appearances is a little worse now. Everyone here is concerned that he does not have the range that he had in 2006. Maybe not. This could be attributed to the knee injury and subsequent surgery. It could be just that he is three years older. Or it could be both. Whatever. Using his latest defensive stats to make assumptions about how he will perform here now is an imprecise process at best. Most of you know that I am not convinced that UZR is a strong indicator of defensive prowess but I am not discounting the stats for that reason. I believe that his current stats (ones post-op) are too small a sample to be used exclusively to judge his current ability.

I also believe that the Sox had plenty of scouting of all available SS candidates to make an informed decision. The Sox wanted an upgrade of the left side defense and wanted to add quality defensive depth. I am hoping that they have done just that. If the other components in the offense start producing simultaneously and on a regular basis, Gonzalez's meager production will not be a big problem. Hopefully he can hit above .210! But that may not be necessary.

 

I really wanted O'Cab before the 07/31 deadline but accept that there are underlying reasons (that I do not understand) for his exclusion. Too bad.

 

Overall, this move is not going to substantially increase the Sox chances of getting to the post season.

I accept that because I don't believe that it is in the cards for the Sox to advance this year. The Sox have put a tantalizingly competitive team on the field this year. That, I believe, was the FO's objective after failing to make the necessary offensive upgrades during the past off season.

 

One other thing, I am disappointed that the Sox have been caught with their pants down with little OF depth. I love Rocco, but counting on him was a big mistake. Dumping Kotsay has made that abundantly clear.

 

Thank you for your time.

[italstallianion]

I just realized that with Lugo gone, I have no use for my "Lugo is handicapped" T-Shirt.

 

Oh, well. At least I still have use for my "A-rod goes limp in the playoffs" T-Shirt.

[Spudboy]

You're wrong. Letting Cabrera go gave Theo draft picks that were used to get Ellsbury and Lowrie.

 

I think this is actually a really stupid discussion. So much second guessing and grass-is-greenering.

 

Giving out F grades and harsh criticism for the SS situation on a team that has won more than 95 games in 5 of the past 6 years, with 2 World Series and 2 ALCS losses seems like the ultimate in elitist fandom.

 

A700, you talk about your experience with this team sucking for much of your life, of the difficulties of being a Red Sox fan in the past when this team disappointed you to no end, yet here we sit, with a very good team, a very good franchise and plenty of reason for optimism, and you're talking about the SS position as if there are either obvious answers or as if the job is an easy one.

 

Every team has holes. Every GM has imperfections and weak spots upon examination of their past teams. The Yankees spend nearly twice as much as the Red Sox do and their bullpen has, except for Rivera, been pretty bad most years recently, their starting pitching suspect. They have had a lineup full of potential hall of famers yet they too missed the playoffs and don't have WS under their name this decade. Should we list every team and their persistent imperfections? Mets, Dodgers, Cubs, White Sox, Mariners? Are there teams you would rather be watching every day?

 

Yeah, it is too bad they haven't been able to find their permenant SS but to pretend that someone would be available NOW, or even in the past year or two is absurd.

 

You think there are lots of secret deals lying under the surface that we all would have accepted? You think Theo had access to, say, Stephen Drew or Troy Tulowitzki or Jose Reyes and didn't pull the trigger? I think he didn't pull the trigger because they are not available. I think we have seen what is available coming through BOston like a revolving door. Just like when the Yankees continue to struggle to upgrade their bullpen or starting pitching in years past, it wasn't for lack of trying, it was for lack of available talent. These GMs aren't kings sitting on their throne's able to demand talent like mutton.

 

You refuse to give Theo the benefit of the doubt in just about every situation. Do you actually believe that he thinks Gonz is a better SS option than Tulo or Jeter or Reyes or Hanley? Of course he knows who the better players are and of course he covets them, but not at the expense of other positions.

 

I would say that their success without the presence of a franchise SS indicates something important about the SS position; namely, that perhaps a patch-work approach to the shortstop position is a tenible option in the absence of that franchise player.

 

I say we all should just hope that the SS the Sox need comes along in the near future. Nobody here is pretending that Gonzalez is the answer. He's clearly not. He's not Theo's answer, he's just another guy to have around who can field the ball and who has played SS in the past.

 

I see no reason to think that if there were a better option available that Theo wouldn't have gone after him.

 

**Let example1 as FO dogboy posts commence**

 

This is clearly the most substantive post on this thread.

 

Thank you, example1.

[Gom]

I was at the stadium during the Yankees series and was chatting it up with a pretty Red Sox fan [sorry, Jacko, it was a female], and she couldn't understand how the Red Sox didn't offer up Buchholz for Halliday.

 

I kind of agree.

 

I think there are always going to be two schools of thought. The one is build through prospects, the other through trades and free agency. What people are upset about is that there is a hole at SS and it hasn't been filled either way.

 

It's not like he hasn't tried, it just hasn't worked. The irony of it is that quite possibly the best overall shortstop in the game was traded by the Red Sox for one of the big clutch pitchers in baseball.

 

PA said it best:

 

"Being the shortstop of the Red Sox is like being one of the security officers beaming down to the planet with Captain Kirk. You’re only going to be around for so long."

 

f***ing priceless.

[Cocos Disciples]

^ Or the drummer of Spinal Tap.

[Spudboy]

^ Or the drummer of Spinal Tap.

 

I love spontaneous combustion.

 

By the way, my keyboard goes to eleven.

[Dojji]

we used to chew through infeilders on a very regular basis at just about all positions. Before Pedroia, the last time we had a franchise 2B might have been Jody Reed, the last time we had a franchise 3B? Wade Boggs. Not that we didn't have talent cycling through those positions on occasion, but that's exactly what it did -- cycle through. Come, play awhile, maybe do well, maybe bomb, and then go.

 

I think there are two big reasons to be upset about the whole shortstop thing. First, it's just about the last position standing as a problem. We have solutions at hand for the immediate future for all of the other infield and outfield positions, plus catcher, that are locks or near locks to produce at an acceptable, above average level

 

Second because this SS drought follows a period of 10 years where we got it right at shortstop. Nomar, and John Valentin before him, made SS our strongest single position through the Pedro era. So used were we to good players at SS that what we're churning through there now is shown up even worse by comparison.

 

I think the best attribute to display here is patience. We've solved and survived other revolving doors on this team, most notably first and second base. We can do so again.

[BSN07]

Tell me who he should have gotten.

 

Tell me who he should have gotten.

 

Tell me who he should have gotten.

 

Tell me who he should have gotten.

 

Tell me who he should have gotten.

 

Theo's Plan A shortstop for these years turned into Beckett because Luccino made a trade behind his back. No regrets there IMHO, but the opportunity to snag a Class A shortstop that would solidify the position for multiple seasons really hasn't come up.

 

It's not really that much different from cycling through Jeremy Giambi, Shea Hillenbrand, John Olderdude, Kevin Millar, Roberto Petagine, and JT Snow before Kevin Youkilis emerged at first base -- or going through Bellhorn, Reese, Graffanino, Cora and Loretta before settling on Pedroia. It's just how you deal with having a hole at a certain position.

Nice post.

Uh oh' date=' he's demanding that we name names. Who the f*** knows, but digest this one. The Red Sox are one of the wealthiest teams in baseball but yet their record at SS (the most important position other than pitcher) is probably worse than any other organization for the last 5 years. Someone is doing something wrong.[/quote']

And yet they have won the WS 2 times in said span.

My frustration isnt based solely on this season.

 

I didnt want to see Ocab go, but obv he had to with the whole Keith Foulke thing. Fine

 

I didnt want Hanley Ramirez to get traded, but understood what the trade brought us back (WS title)

 

I was excited when they got Renteria. I didnt want to see Renteria go. He was horrible defensively, but he was still useful offensively, and I really thought his defense was an aberration.

 

I didnt want to see Gonzalez go. Best ive ever seen with the glove, obviously hes aged. He was bad offensively, but not to the levels of this season although his OB numbers were atrocious. He did hit 9 HR and have 50 RBIS, while not the most telling offensive stats when you look at his OB production numbers, but we knew what we were getting, so I think he outperformed expectations.

 

I was pissed off when they got Lugo, I never liked him, and Im pissed off they got rid of him.

 

Lowrie was a nice surprise last year, but ill give him the benefit of doubt and say injuries have robbed him off anything he was capable of doing.

 

The Woodward deal was reactionary to Lowrie getting DL'd, Gonzalez was reactionary to Lowrie as well as looked at as an improvement to Woodward.

 

Its just a whole frustrating series of events.

lol Love the vent. I feel some of those frustrations.

That's because at this point naming names is crucial. The grass is always greener in someone else's pasture after all, much less how green it is in a speculative pasture you don't even need to explicitly identify. Until you get specific you're just speaking from your posterior orifice.

 

It's easy to say Theo did a terrible job acquiring SS talent until you start to name who else he should have gotten. Who was available and who wasn't is a critical part of the discussion right now, especially since the free agent market has been very dry on shortstops for years with most of the good ones being locked up by their teams and thus unattainable. .

 

I don't care how big the budget is, holes are going to crop up on any roster especially if the presumptive starter spends the bulk of the season out with this or that injury. Money doesn't even count for anything unless it's spent well, or haven't you watched the Mets recently? The fact is that since Renteria at least there really hasn't been that guy out on the free agent market that is definitely worth spending money ON. Since then among the better free agent shortstops have been Rafael Furcal and his bad back, David Eckstein twice, Khalil Green, Edgar Renteria again, of course Lugo, and a badly dimished offensive version of Orlando Cabrera

 

In short there hasn't been anyone out there that I'd bat higher than 9th. I don't believe in blowing good money on #9 hitters.

 

You'll have to do better than "we're the richest team we can do anything!!!!" in order to convince me some kind of magical super shortstop X was out there that we should have stuck with for these years. You think we should have done what? Sign Rafael Furcal? Are you one of the Orlando Cabrera mouthbreathers? what should we have done that we didn't do?

Very nice post.

But he couldn't hit when he was here. Should we believe that he has improved?

It's a defensive move. If he hits anything it can only be considered a bonus.

He's going to bat too. We are replacing one black hole in the lineup for another.

But you will be ahppy when he turns those inning ending DP's:D

What part of 'he wasn't acquired for his bat' isn't sticking? He was acquired for defense. I don't think the FO cares at all what he does at the plate as long as he defends well.

Not sure he will:D

 

 

Ya, Gonzalez isn't ideal. But if he can help sure up the defense then so be it.

[SoxSport]

I feel better about losing O. Cabrera now that I see it translated into Ellsbury. But then his agent is Boras so I don't feel so good again.

 

Most likely, Buchholz was part of the several "good" packages offered for Halladay. I never thought Toronto's GM was serious about trading Halladay. That's why I think it didn't happen.

 

They had their chances to get Lee and Peavy. Both were seriously on the market. But Theo seems to prefer to go after the toughest fish to catch. In this case, Hernandez and Halladay.

 

I hope Gonzalez still has some D left in his game. They need it at SS.

 

I see Tito wants to keep Tazawa in the rotation. He and/or Buchholz will have to step up to Lester level if they have any chance. I don't see Penny or Wake as playoff starters.

[a700hitter]

You're wrong. Letting Cabrera go gave Theo draft picks that were used to get Ellsbury and Lowrie.

 

I think this is actually a really stupid discussion. So much second guessing and grass-is-greenering.

 

Giving out F grades and harsh criticism for the SS situation on a team that has won more than 95 games in 5 of the past 6 years, with 2 World Series and 2 ALCS losses seems like the ultimate in elitist fandom.

 

A700, you talk about your experience with this team sucking for much of your life, of the difficulties of being a Red Sox fan in the past when this team disappointed you to no end, yet here we sit, with a very good team, a very good franchise and plenty of reason for optimism, and you're talking about the SS position as if there are either obvious answers or as if the job is an easy one.

 

Every team has holes. Every GM has imperfections and weak spots upon examination of their past teams. The Yankees spend nearly twice as much as the Red Sox do and their bullpen has, except for Rivera, been pretty bad most years recently, their starting pitching suspect. They have had a lineup full of potential hall of famers yet they too missed the playoffs and don't have WS under their name this decade. Should we list every team and their persistent imperfections? Mets, Dodgers, Cubs, White Sox, Mariners? Are there teams you would rather be watching every day?

 

Yeah, it is too bad they haven't been able to find their permenant SS but to pretend that someone would be available NOW, or even in the past year or two is absurd.

 

You think there are lots of secret deals lying under the surface that we all would have accepted? You think Theo had access to, say, Stephen Drew or Troy Tulowitzki or Jose Reyes and didn't pull the trigger? I think he didn't pull the trigger because they are not available. I think we have seen what is available coming through BOston like a revolving door. Just like when the Yankees continue to struggle to upgrade their bullpen or starting pitching in years past, it wasn't for lack of trying, it was for lack of available talent. These GMs aren't kings sitting on their throne's able to demand talent like mutton.

 

You refuse to give Theo the benefit of the doubt in just about every situation. Do you actually believe that he thinks Gonz is a better SS option than Tulo or Jeter or Reyes or Hanley? Of course he knows who the better players are and of course he covets them, but not at the expense of other positions.

 

I would say that their success without the presence of a franchise SS indicates something important about the SS position; namely, that perhaps a patch-work approach to the shortstop position is a tenible option in the absence of that franchise player.

 

I say we all should just hope that the SS the Sox need comes along in the near future. Nobody here is pretending that Gonzalez is the answer. He's clearly not. He's not Theo's answer, he's just another guy to have around who can field the ball and who has played SS in the past.

 

I see no reason to think that if there were a better option available that Theo wouldn't have gone after him.

 

**Let example1 as FO dogboy posts commence**

I've got my pom poms out. Go Theo. In Theo we trust. he's so smart. There are just no SS's. It's unfair to criticize him because he is perfect. If he got us a good SS, we never would have won two world championships. I guess criticism of the GM is out of bounds. His moves should never be discussed or questioned. That being said, his grade for planning the SS position gets an F this season.

[MANNYHOF24]

Way better defensively then Nick Green. Thats all that matters at this point, because lets face it... Green sucks at the plate. Good move.

[BSN07]

I've got my pom poms out. Go Theo. In Theo we trust. he's so smart. There are just no SS's. It's unfair to criticize him because he is perfect. If he got us a good SS' date=' we never would have won two world championships. I guess criticism of the GM is out of bounds. His moves should never be discussed or questioned. That being said, his grade for planning the SS position gets an F this season.[/quote']

 

"shakes head"

 

Criticism is fine when it is just.

 

You advocate a upgrade at SS, but provide no solutions yourself. You basically would like Theo to pull a SS from his ass.

 

Maybe a wave of the wand and some GM will magically decide to make his SS available? Maybe even let him become a FA?

 

Not saying the SS situation is ideal, but I don't see much else he could hvae done to make it that much better.

 

I agree with Dojji's point earlier about the carousel at 1B and 2B before someone finally took over the spot. We could be looking at that situation. Maybe they were hoping Lowrie was that guy.

 

Don't get too worked up. The Red Sox are good enough without a big bat at SS IMO right now. What they need is defense. Agon provides that right now. Then he's gone at the end of the season. Then the search for a new SS begins. Just be patient. you might get your wish for a solid SS this off season:D

[ORS]

While I agree that nobody should be above criticism or critique, e1 does bring up a valid point, IMO. It seems there's no pleasing you sometimes. You don't like when they shop the trash heap, but you didn't like the Drew/Lugo/Matsuzaka acquisitions either, and they all represented best available at the time they were signed. You remind me of my wife. We went to a DMB concert in Tampa at an outdoor venue. We had a hotel room across the street, the kids were with the in-laws back in Orlando, and Dave was playing. Now, it did rain that night, but it was in the summer, and Florida summer rain is refreshing. She let it ruin her night, though.

 

Take a step back and look at what's happened over the last 6 years. Compare this 6 years to any in your time as a Sox fan. Look at the state of the players in the pipeline to compliment (whether it be directly on the field or through trade for established players) the existing core they've brought into the league. Stop and smell the roses, man.

 

Pom poms don't need to be at the ready, but let this thing play out before griping about it ad naseum. The SS position blew up in their face this year. However, they are still a good bet to play in October, they still have one of the best 1/2 pitcher combos to throw in an October series, and they have the offseason to figure that position out.

[Gom]

It seems there's no pleasing you sometimes. You don't like when they shop the trash heap, but you didn't like the Drew/Lugo/Matsuzaka acquisitions either, and they all represented best available at the time they were signed. You remind me of my wife. We went to a DMB concert in Tampa at an outdoor venue. We had a hotel room across the street, the kids were with the in-laws back in Orlando, and Dave was playing. Now, it did rain that night, but it was in the summer, and Florida summer rain is refreshing. She let it ruin her night, though.

 

Quite possibly the greatest post in TalkSox history.

 

Red Sox fans...Yankee fans...no matter what....women never change.

[BSN07]

While I agree that nobody should be above criticism or critique, e1 does bring up a valid point, IMO. It seems there's no pleasing you sometimes. You don't like when they shop the trash heap, but you didn't like the Drew/Lugo/Matsuzaka acquisitions either, and they all represented best available at the time they were signed. You remind me of my wife. We went to a DMB concert in Tampa at an outdoor venue. We had a hotel room across the street, the kids were with the in-laws back in Orlando, and Dave was playing. Now, it did rain that night, but it was in the summer, and Florida summer rain is refreshing. She let it ruin her night, though.

 

Take a step back and look at what's happened over the last 6 years. Compare this 6 years to any in your time as a Sox fan. Look at the state of the players in the pipeline to compliment (whether it be directly on the field or through trade for established players) the existing core they've brought into the league. Stop and smell the roses, man.

 

Pom poms don't need to be at the ready, but let this thing play out before griping about it ad naseum. The SS position blew up in their face this year. However, they are still a good bet to play in October, they still have one of the best 1/2 pitcher combos to throw in an October series, and they have the offseason to figure that position out.

 

We don't see eye to eye on a lot of things. But I couldn't agree with you more. Nice post:thumbsup:

[example1]

They had their chances to get Lee and Peavy. Both were seriously on the market. But Theo seems to prefer to go after the toughest fish to catch. In this case, Hernandez and Halladay.

 

 

Lee maybe, but Peavy most likely didn't get much interest from Boston. I will be interested to see how he does in Chicago (once he's healthy again), but his cost is prohibative for a team that prides itself on 'reasonable' deals.

 

I see Tito wants to keep Tazawa in the rotation. He and/or Buchholz will have to step up to Lester level if they have any chance. I don't see Penny or Wake as playoff starters.

 

They have to step up to #3 levels, not to Lester's level. Lester is almost as good as most team's #1 pitchers.

[example1]

I've got my pom poms out. Go Theo. In Theo we trust. he's so smart. There are just no SS's. It's unfair to criticize him because he is perfect. If he got us a good SS' date=' we never would have won two world championships. I guess criticism of the GM is out of bounds. His moves should never be discussed or questioned. That being said, his grade for planning the SS position gets an F this season.[/quote']

 

How would you measure whether a SS was quality or not? What threshold would you set and what numbers or traits would you look at?

 

The reason I ask is because I think if you present clearly the criteria that would please you at SS we can determine whether or not that talent has ever actually been available, how prevalent it is throughout the league, etc.,

 

 

 

I've read mention of O'cab, but I would contend that in addition to the valuable draft picks the Sox got for him, his performance really hasn't been that significant either offensively or defensively. The difference between he and replacement level (say, Nick Green) is almost neglegable. Honestly, he's one of the guys that I would have mentioned too, but I can completely see why the Sox let him go. Who else?

 

 

My contention is that there are many who hover near league average, a few who have a history of being consistently slightly above league average (Renteria & Lugo when signed), and a few who are truly elite relative to other SS in terms of production and consistency(Reyes, Jeter, Hanley, Tulo, maybe a few others).

 

Long story short:

 

-"Elite" players aren't available.

-"Consistently above average" players are expensive (older, usually through FA) and have a high chance for flameout or disappointment.

-League average is what everyone else gets most of the time.

[TedWilliams101]

I just don't get why the Sox go out and bring in a SS they basically cut 2 years ago. Hell, he is in the worst year of his career right now... and the Sox see that as an improvement? I think we will be seeing a lot more games like tonight from Gonzo; some nice plays, but 0-4 with GIDPs.

[The_Destroyah]

I just don't get why the Sox go out and bring in a SS they basically cut 2 years ago. Hell' date=' he is in the worst year of his career right now... and the Sox see that as an improvement? I think we will be seeing a lot more games like tonight from Gonzo; some nice plays, but 0-4 with GIDPs.[/quote']

 

Defense. thats the one thing the FO was looking for and the one thing they REALLY needed and they got it.

[a700hitter]

Pom poms don't need to be at the ready' date=' but let this thing play out before griping about it ad naseum. [b']The SS position blew up in their face this year. [/b]However, they are still a good bet to play in October, they still have one of the best 1/2 pitcher combos to throw in an October series, and they have the off season to figure that position out.

All I am saying is that the FO takes the hit for this. They are not victims of unforeseen circumstances. They entered the season with a half-assed plan at SS. There is no denying that. It's not an indictment of the FO overall performance. Example tries to make every issue a referendum on the FO. I have said several times that, on balance, over the last several years they have done an excellent job. With respect to putting a SS on the field this year, they f***ed up... pure and simple. No excuses.

 

I never complained about them getting Dice K, Drew and Lugo. I thought the FO did the right thing getting the players to plug the gaping holes that existed on the 2006 team. I wasn't thrilled with Lugo, but overall I was in agreement with the off season philosophy in 2006. Since then, those moves have blown up in their faces. That's just a fact. It's a result oriented business, and the performance of those three has not justified the financial outlay. I was in favor of the moves when they were made, but I am disappointed in their performance as I am sure management is disappointed. The difference is that the fans don't get fired for being wrong. GMs do, and Theo's record on these big expenditures is not good.

 

I did not agree with the philosophy this off season of signing the injured and infirm, and I think the result have borne out my concern.

 

What you guys don't understand when you criticize my posts is that it has nothing to do with my being happy or angry. I remember a cartoon of a golfer hacking away on the golf course. The caption in one frame said: "I hate this game." The next frame said: "but it is the only fun I have." I love the game and the Red Sox. I've been addicted for 43 years. I have traveled all over the country to watch this team, and I have never booed one of our guys... ever. I've booed an idiot manager a few times. As big a fan as I am, I've always called 'em as I see'em. If I look at a personnel move or a play and I think it sucks, then that's what I'm going to tell you.

 

I don't have to cling to defending the Dice K, Drew and Lugo moves, because I liked the moves when they were made. They have turned out bad, and that's my opinion. Every one of those guys has underperformed. Is that a condemnation of the FO, as Example would interpret it to be? No it is not, because more goes into running an organization than a handful of moves. I post here a lot, if you haven't noticed:D, and in the course of a season a lot goes wrong, even during the most successful seasons. I will post my thoughts about each and every one of those things. The criticisms stay with people and upset them, but the positive posts are quickly forgotten. Everyone here was certain that I hated Tazawa, as well as all prospects, so I went back and found my very complimentary posts about him from March based on seeing him at spring training. In one of those posts, I stated that no one will remember that I liked the kid. I also liked Reddick when I saw him. He crushed a couple of Homers when I saw him in Fla. and I could see that he had tools, but I am not happy to see him flailing at balls at bat and in the field in the middle of a pennant race. Am I unhappy about Tazawa or Reddick? No, but that doesn't mean that I will not bluntly assess their readiness for the majors, and I will criticize the FO for putting them and the team at a disadvantage.

 

As for your wife and the rain, my wife is the same way when it comes to rain. If she hit the Powerball Lottery , but was outside in the rain when it happened, she would be unhappy because of the rain.

[a700hitter]

I've read mention of O'cab' date=' but I would contend that in addition to the valuable draft picks the Sox got for him, his performance really hasn't been that significant either offensively or defensively. The difference between he and replacement level (say, Nick Green) is almost neglegable. Honestly, he's one of the guys that I would have mentioned too, but I can completely see why the Sox let him go. Who else? [/quote']Who is talking about letting him go in 2004? Why are you discussing moves that are 5 years old? He was available to be reacquired this July. That's the issue. He was a much better option than AGon, not negligibly better. He is not an automatic out with the bat in his hands and his fielding is very solid too.

 

Long story short:

 

-"Elite" players aren't available.

Really? Beckett was an elite young talented pitcher when he was acquired. He wasn't being shopped around the league. The Red Sox needed a stud pitcher to replace Pedro, and they landed a big fish. It cost Hanley Ramirez. Everyone is always available. It's only a matter of cost and matching up needs for the teams involved.

[Dipre]

Who is talking about letting him go in 2004? Why are you discussing moves that are 5 years old? He was available to be reacquired this July. That's the issue. He was a much better option than AGon, not negligibly better. He is not an automatic out with the bat in his hands and his fielding is very solid too.

 

Really? Beckett was an elite young talented pitcher when he was acquired. He wasn't being shopped around the league. The Red Sox needed a stud pitcher to replace Pedro, and they landed a big fish. It cost Hanley Ramirez. Everyone is always available. It's only a matter of cost and matching up needs for the teams involved.

 

When the Red Sox acquired Beckett, he was being shopped.

[CrespoBlows]

The Red Sox should have been calling for shortstops when Jed Lowrie went down in April.

[ORS]

Everyone here was certain that I hated Tazawa' date=' as well as all prospects, so I went back and found my very complimentary posts about him from March based on seeing him at spring training. In one of those posts, I stated that no one will remember that I liked the kid. I also liked Reddick when I saw him. He crushed a couple of Homers when I saw him in Fla. and I could see that he had tools, but I am not happy to see him flailing at balls at bat and in the field in the middle of a pennant race.[/quote']

Liking these players in spring training and not wanting to see them play for the team is incompatible. At least it is if you consider it within the context of playing for the Boston Red Sox. This is a team that is likely to always be in contention, and despite your positive reports from March, you have never come down in favor of giving rookies a chance to cut their teeth for this team because of its constant playoff hopes. So, regardless of what you saw earlier, you complain when they are relied upon. This is probably the root of my issue with your veteran love. Under this criteria, that the team never opt to endure rookie growing pains, the team never sees the benefit of homegrown players. This is an untenable place to be.

 

Look at the Sox players who have either hit FA or those the Sox have extended into their first few FA years. What's the average salary of those players? Lowell, Ortiz, Beckett, Lester, Youkilis, Pedroia, Drew, Bay, Varitek, Gonzalez? Those last two bring it down a bit, but we are talking about probably $10M per player. A roster full of quality players who have "proven" themselves is going to cost upwards of $200M per year. Only one team does that, and they too, like the rest of the league, try to achieve the benefit of cost controlled talent through their player development system. It is, has been, and always will be a part of the league and roster management. It's like complaining that the sun rises. It's going to do it every day, why bother?

[SoxSport]

The Red Sox should have been calling for shortstops when Jed Lowrie went down in April.

 

Things just worked out for the worst. One thing I suspect is they let Lugo go too soon. Sure the guy was a step slower coming back, but so is Lowell. Lugo is now doing well for the Cardinals, and they are also looking at Smoltz, who may be another premature castoff. Nice to have another team pay your salaries.

 

My view is you can't expect players to come back 100% immediately after serious injury.

Sometimes it takes a season. The Red Sox have had too many players like that this year, including some FAs they signed on the cheap--and none have panned out. That's one of the reasons why they might not make the playoffs--along with the Ortiz and Tek holes in the lineup. And Oh yeah, Dice-K's disappearance.

[a700hitter]

Liking these players in spring training and not wanting to see them play for the team is incompatible. At least it is if you consider it within the context of playing for the Boston Red Sox. This is a team that is likely to always be in contention' date=' and despite your positive reports from March, you have never come down in favor of giving rookies a chance to cut their teeth for this team because of its constant playoff hopes. So, regardless of what you saw earlier, you complain when they are relied upon. This is probably the root of my issue with your veteran love. Under this criteria, that the team never opt to endure rookie growing pains, the team never sees the benefit of homegrown players. This is an untenable place to be. [/quote']Not true. After the first week of '06 I was eager for Papelbon to stay in the closer role after seeing that Foulke was going to be a bust. I thought Lowrie was ready to take the SS job this season, and I posted on many occasions that if Lugo slipped up a bit that Lowrie's bat would win him the starting job, and I didn't think Lugo would get the job back. If one rookie breaks into the starting lineup each year, that is pretty good work by the FO. Teams that start several rookies usually end up at the bottom of the standings. Years with Rice and Lynn as rookies come up once in a lifetime.

 

I don't like when in the middle of a pennant race that the FO calls up inexperienced kids to play key roles. It's unfair to the kid and the team. For the most part, unless you are talking about a super talent like a Papelbon or a Clemens, I think a young pitcher should learn to pitch at the major league level out of the bullpen. That is how it was done very successfully for decade. Pedro was in the Dodgers bullpen at the start. There's not as much opportunity for an every day player to cut his teeth on a bench today, because teams carry a very short bench since most teams carry 12 pitchers. Due to his injuries, I don't think Lowrie can be relied upon to be the starting SS this season or next. He should be the utility guy. He can play 4 positions, and it would be good to see if he can get through an entire season healthy.

[a700hitter]

While I agree that nobody should be above criticism or critique' date=' e1 does bring up a valid point, IMO. It seems there's no pleasing you sometimes. You don't like when they shop the trash heap, but you didn't like the Drew/Lugo/Matsuzaka acquisitions either, and they all represented best available at the time they were signed. [/quote']Now you are starting to get me. I don't like a bad move if it involves kids or veterans. A bad move is a bad move. Sometimes a move looks good at the time, but it turns out bad. I liked all of the 2006 signings when they happened. I liked the Gagne trade when it happened. Those moves are not looking so good today. If I say that Drew has underperformed his contract that doesn't make me a hypocrite if I blame the FO. It's the FO's job to be responsible for the outcome, not a fan on an Internet forum. I have never called for Theo's head or Tito's or Lucchino's. They've all f***ed up. It goes with the territory. When they do, I come here to post my thoughts about it. I wish other posters would just debate the issue at hand instead of trying to identify patterns in my posting to categorize me as anti-prospect etc. My philosophy is irrelevant to the merits of a particular move, especially since I have no particular philosophy on how to build a team. This thread is about AGon and Green, so I don't know how my incorrectly perceived anti-kid stance became a point of debate, since neither of them is a prospect or a kid.

 

BTW Jacoby was another kid that I liked right off the bat and who I thought was ML ready in 2007.

[TheKilo]

The Red Sox should have been calling for shortstops when Jed Lowrie went down in April.

 

Yep, Lowrie's wrist has screwed them over on two separate occasions, one for relying on him to start the season, and second for him hurting it again post-deadline.

[cobra24]

I just don't get why the Sox go out and bring in a SS they basically cut 2 years ago. Hell' date=' he is in the worst year of his career right now... and the Sox see that as an improvement? I think we will be seeing a lot more games like tonight from Gonzo; some nice plays, but 0-4 with GIDPs.[/quote']

 

Yes we will.. but its ok, they got a little more D out of it. I would have rather seen Green hitting. At least he can get a timely hit every now and then.

[TheKilo]

They both suck, I just think it's funny people still think Gonzalez is a competent defensive SS.