Red Sox Re-Acquire Alex Gonzalez

[ORS]

Calling SS anything other than a complete disappointment since 2004 is an outright lie. Renteria was supposed to be an upgrade over OCab. He was marginally better with the bat, but sucked like Elton John aboard the USS Enterprise in the field. Alex Gonzalez was supposed to improve the position in the field, and he did, but his bat was so limp it needed Viagra. Lugo was supposed to come in a do both, to be a weapon like he was in TB. Disappointment. Lowrie was supposed to translate his success in the minors at the major league level. He hasn't because he can't stay healthy, which is, again, disappointing. Now we are stuck with Nick Green, a career AAAA player who is doing his best lately to normalize the numbers from his decent start, and a slow, worse in the field, and worse hitting Alex Gonzalez.........disappointing.

[Dojji]

You're blaming Theo for the fact that we've had to replace Lowrie for most of the world.

 

If Lowrie was actually available, none of the later moves would have been made.

 

THESE. ARE. REPLACEMENT. PLAYERS. These are NOT guys Theo WANTS to bring in, these are guys he HAS to bring in to keep warm bodies at the shortstop position until Plan A (Lowrie) gets healthy.

[SCM33]

Lugo cannot play the position defensively. I don't care how bad Green is, Lugo's worse.

 

A good shortstop is one of the hardest things to find, no matter how big your payroll is. If there's a player who's likely to never hit free agency it's any kind of really good shortstop.

 

Green is a pretty horrible SS. And he cant hit worth s***.

 

Lugo could at least hit a little. Green is an atrocious offensive baseball player. Both are pretty horrible with the leather.

[SCM33]

You're blaming Theo for the fact that we've had to replace Lowrie for most of the world.

 

If Lowrie was actually available, none of the later moves would have been made.

 

THESE. ARE. REPLACEMENT. PLAYERS. These are NOT guys Theo WANTS to bring in, these are guys he HAS to bring in to keep warm bodies at the shortstop position until Plan A (Lowrie) gets healthy.

 

Lowrie sucks too. You honestly think he was the answer? I thought he did a nice job last year, but he is not the answer to the problem. He was an average AAA player. He came up and we caught lightning in a bottle. Jed Lowrie should not be the starting SS for the RedSox. The original plan was a bad one, and all the backup plans in response to the original bad plan have been disastrous.

[a700hitter]

You're blaming Theo for the fact that we've had to replace Lowrie for most of the world.

 

If Lowrie was actually available, none of the later moves would have been made.

 

THESE. ARE. REPLACEMENT. PLAYERS. These are NOT guys Theo WANTS to bring in, these are guys he HAS to bring in to keep warm bodies at the shortstop position until Plan A (Lowrie) gets healthy.

This kid's situation with his wrist and now forearm tingling is troubling. There is no guarantee that this doesn't hamper or cut short his career. Theo can't rely on him as the starter going forward. it would be a big step for the kid if he could handle the utility job for the entire season without going down with an injury.

[Dojji]

Green is a pretty horrible SS. And he cant hit worth s***.

 

Lugo could at least hit a little. Green is an atrocious offensive baseball player. Both are pretty horrible with the leather.

 

Nick Green OPS .679

Julio Lugo OPS w/ Boston .719

 

 

 

Lugo .928 FPCT(which is horrid!)

Green .955 FPCT(still not very good, but better)

 

League average is .973

 

Lugo 3.70 RF at SS

Green 4.27 RF at SS

 

League average is 4.39

 

Green was below average in all categories. Lugo is far, far worse and absolutely unacceptable. Green has bad range, but it's an open question whether Lugo actually moved on any given grounder.

 

I just don't see how we can tolerate the absolute horrid wretched total complete blinding FAIL that was Lugo's defense for another .040 of OPS.

[ORS]

Lowrie sucks too. You honestly think he was the answer? I thought he did a nice job last year' date=' but he is not the answer to the problem. He was an average AAA player. He came up and we caught lightning in a bottle. Jed Lowrie should not be the starting SS for the RedSox. The original plan was a bad one, and all the backup plans in response to the original bad plan have been disastrous.[/quote']

This is where I think you are going overboard. In approx 350 AB's from the end of '07 to the beginning of '08 Lowrie put up an .830-ish OPS. This is not average in AAA. Then he came up and played through a hurt wrist. That wrist continued to bother him this year. You haven't seen him healthy for an appreciable period of time in Boston.

 

That said, the fact that he can't get and stay healthy is a bit alarming. He needs to get fixed and probably spend a year in AAA getting a feel for his repaired wrist.

[SCM33]

Nick Green OPS .679

Julio Lugo OPS w/ Boston .719

 

 

 

Lugo .928 FPCT(which is horrid!)

Green .955 FPCT(still not very good, but better)

 

League average is .973

 

Lugo 3.70 RF at SS

Green 4.27 RF at SS

 

League average is 4.39

 

Green was below average in all categories. Lugo is far, far worse and absolutely unacceptable.

 

I just don't see how we can tolerate the absolute horrid wretched total complete blinding FAIL that was Lugo's defense for another .040 of OPS.

 

You are cherry picking stats.

 

Lugo has done very well for STL, you cannot assume he wouldnt have hit the same way with us.

 

Look, this argument is not about Green, or Lugo in comparison. The argument is about the horrible, horrible job Theo has done with the SS position throughout the years. Just because ones s***** stats are better than anothers doesnt mean that one is the better option. They are both bad options as Theo has absolutely botched every move he has made in the SS position since 2004 offseason on.

[SCM33]

This is where I think you are going overboard. In approx 350 AB's from the end of '07 to the beginning of '08 Lowrie put up an .830-ish OPS. This is not average in AAA. Then he came up and played through a hurt wrist. That wrist continued to bother him this year. You haven't seen him healthy for an appreciable period of time in Boston.

 

That said, the fact that he can't get and stay healthy is a bit alarming. He needs to get fixed and probably spend a year in AAA getting a feel for his repaired wrist.

 

You are prob right, I am just frustrated we cant find 1 player to call Shortstop for more than 1.5 years.

[Dojji]

Lowrie sucks too. You honestly think he was the answer? I thought he did a nice job last year' date=' but he is not the answer to the problem. He was an average AAA player. He came up and we caught lightning in a bottle. Jed Lowrie should not be the starting SS for the RedSox. The original plan was a bad one, and all the backup plans in response to the original bad plan have been disastrous.[/quote']

 

Now you're just panicking. there was no way of knowing this would happen to Lowrie at the start of the year. By the time we really realized we'd have to do something at that position all the decent options were on winning teams. The only guy I can see us going for at the deadline that we didn't is Jhonny Peralta.

 

Nick Green is the sort of guy a team should have in the minors if it needs to rely on a replacement level SS, which is exactly what he was brought in to be. Theo was smart to sign him, because when every possible best laid scheme went south, at least Green was there to give us a replacement level alternative. He should never have been the starting SS, but I'm struggling to figure out exactly how we either could have predicted what'd happen at SS this year or what we should have done about it in midseason that we didn't.

[SCM33]

Now you're just panicking. there was no way of knowing this would happen to Lowrie at the start of the year. By the time we really realized we'd have to do something at that position all the decent options were on winning teams. The only guy I can see us going for at the deadline that we didn't is Jhonny Peralta.

 

Nick Green is the sort of guy a team should have in the minors if it needs to rely on a replacement level SS, which is exactly what he was brought in to be. Theo was smart to sign him, because when every possible best laid scheme went south, at least Green was there to give us a replacement level alternative. He should never have been the starting SS, but I'm struggling to figure out exactly how we either could have predicted what'd happen at SS this year or what we should have done about it in midseason that we didn't.

 

No, i just responded to ORS the same way I will respond to you. I just find it very frustrating that we cannot just settle down with one SS. The injury is not his fault obviously, but its just another chapter of a shitstorm that is the Boston Red Sox Shortstop.

 

EDIT: Green was brought in to be a AAA roster filler. The utility inf on the big league roster is your backup SS, which is why Green didnt play a game in MLB in 2008.

[Dojji]

You are cherry picking stats.

 

Lugo has done very well for STL, you cannot assume he wouldnt have hit the same way with us.

 

Look, this argument is not about Green, or Lugo in comparison. The argument is about the horrible, horrible job Theo has done with the SS position throughout the years. Just because ones s***** stats are better than anothers doesnt mean that one is the better option. They are both bad options as Theo has absolutely botched every move he has made in the SS position since 2004 offseason on.

 

You accuse me of cherry picking stats and then you want to praise Lugo for a 10 game sample? If you combine his games with St. Louis with the Boston sample you still get a result that's FAR below average.

[SCM33]

You accuse me of cherry picking stats and then you want to praise Lugo for a 10 game sample? If you combine his games with St. Louis with the Boston sample you still get a result that's FAR below average.

 

Again.....this argument is not about Green, or Lugo in comparison. The argument is about the horrible, horrible job Theo has done with the SS position throughout the years. Just because ones s***** stats are better than anothers doesnt mean that one is the better option. They are both bad options as Theo has absolutely botched every move he has made in the SS position since 2004 offseason on.

[Dojji]

No, i just responded to ORS the same way I will respond to you. I just find it very frustrating that we cannot just settle down with one SS. The injury is not his fault obviously, but its just another chapter of a shitstorm that is the Boston Red Sox Shortstop.

 

EDIT: Green was brought in to be a AAA roster filler. The utility inf on the big league roster is your backup SS, which is why Green didnt play a game in MLB in 2008.

 

So do I, but you have yet to tell me which of the available options at SS we should have settled down with.

 

Theo isn't cycling through shortstops for the heck of it. Lugo's gone for a reason, he sucked. believe me, if there was any reason to believe Lugo would bounce back to average Theo wouldn't have ate the contract and shipped him out of town. Lowrie's hurt. None of the others are better than Nick Green. I don't see what Theo is supposed to be doing here that he hasn't done.

 

You want to express a general frustration with the fact that we tend to change shortstops in midstream? Fine. But at least this year, with the pieces he had to work with, I can't honestly see what Theo should have done differently.

[example1]

The SS represents the worst case scenario for this team.

 

I actually don't see the attempted solutions as the problem, rather the longterm approach is the problem. Is anyone here actually concerned about Gonzalez's ability to turn routine double plays, groundballs, etc., into outs? I'm not. I realize his range is poor and his bat sucks, but at least we know he'll make the routine plays.

 

The bigger problem that this highlights is the longterm lack of a solid SS plan. Lowrie was the closest thing to the organizational philosophy paying off at that position, but unlike Pedroia in 2007 the injuries have killed his ability to get comfortable.

 

Personally, I thought Renteria was a good signing, until he sucked. Lugo was a more suspicious signing to me, and proved to be just that.

 

There aren't easy answers for this season. Alex Gonzalez isn't it. He's not even a step in the right direction. His acquisition should be pretty clear indication of the type of talent available at this point in the season.

 

Few people around here were excited about Julio Lugo or Jack Wilson or Christian Guzman. Or Orlando Cabrera or most of the other names discussed here. There were no good answers, as far as I can see.

[Dojji]

Again.....this argument is not about Green' date=' or Lugo in comparison. The argument is about the horrible, horrible job Theo has done with the SS position throughout the years. Just because ones s***** stats are better than anothers doesnt mean that one is the better option. They are both bad options as Theo has absolutely botched every move he has made in the SS position since 2004 offseason on.[/quote']

 

Tell me who he should have gotten.

 

Tell me who he should have gotten.

 

Tell me who he should have gotten.

 

Tell me who he should have gotten.

 

Tell me who he should have gotten.

 

Theo's Plan A shortstop for these years turned into Beckett because Luccino made a trade behind his back. No regrets there IMHO, but the opportunity to snag a Class A shortstop that would solidify the position for multiple seasons really hasn't come up.

 

It's not really that much different from cycling through Jeremy Giambi, Shea Hillenbrand, John Olderdude, Kevin Millar, Roberto Petagine, and JT Snow before Kevin Youkilis emerged at first base -- or going through Bellhorn, Reese, Graffanino, Cora and Loretta before settling on Pedroia. It's just how you deal with having a hole at a certain position.

[Dojji]

Few people around here were excited about Julio Lugo or Jack Wilson or Christian Guzman. Or Orlando Cabrera or most of the other names discussed here. There were no good answers, as far as I can see.

 

I only saw one guy that we even potentially could have gotten who would represent enough of a sure thing that we should deal anything of consequence for him -- Jhonny Peralta. And we have no idea if the Guardians have any intention of listening to offers for him.

[a700hitter]

Tell me who he should have gotten.

 

Tell me who he should have gotten.

 

Tell me who he should have gotten.

 

Tell me who he should have gotten.

 

Tell me who he should have gotten.

 

Theo's Plan A shortstop for these years turned into Beckett because Luccino made a trade behind his back. No regrets there IMHO, but the opportunity to snag a Class A shortstop that would solidify the position for multiple seasons really hasn't come up.

 

It's not really that much different from cycling through Jeremy Giambi, Shea Hillenbrand, John Olderdude, Kevin Millar, Roberto Petagine, and JT Snow before Kevin Youkilis emerged at first base -- or going through Walker, Bellhorn, Reese, Graffanino, Cora and Loretta before settling on Pedroia. It's just how you deal with having a hole at a certain position.

Uh oh, he's demanding that we name names. Who the f*** knows, but digest this one. The Red Sox are one of the wealthiest teams in baseball but yet their record at SS (the most important position other than pitcher) is probably worse than any other organization for the last 5 years. Someone is doing something wrong.

[example1]

The hope is that between Iglesias, Kelly and Renfroe the Sox can develop a longterm SS who they can "set and forget".

[SCM33]

My frustration isnt based solely on this season.

 

I didnt want to see Ocab go, but obv he had to with the whole Keith Foulke thing. Fine

 

I didnt want Hanley Ramirez to get traded, but understood what the trade brought us back (WS title)

 

I was excited when they got Renteria. I didnt want to see Renteria go. He was horrible defensively, but he was still useful offensively, and I really thought his defense was an aberration.

 

I didnt want to see Gonzalez go. Best ive ever seen with the glove, obviously hes aged. He was bad offensively, but not to the levels of this season although his OB numbers were atrocious. He did hit 9 HR and have 50 RBIS, while not the most telling offensive stats when you look at his OB production numbers, but we knew what we were getting, so I think he outperformed expectations.

 

I was pissed off when they got Lugo, I never liked him, and Im pissed off they got rid of him.

 

Lowrie was a nice surprise last year, but ill give him the benefit of doubt and say injuries have robbed him off anything he was capable of doing.

 

The Woodward deal was reactionary to Lowrie getting DL'd, Gonzalez was reactionary to Lowrie as well as looked at as an improvement to Woodward.

 

Its just a whole frustrating series of events.

[Dojji]

Uh oh' date=' he's demanding that we name names. Who the f*** knows, but digest this one. The Red Sox are one of the wealthiest teams in baseball but yet their record at SS (the most important position other than pitcher) is probably worse than any other organization for the last 5 years. Someone is doing something wrong.[/quote']

 

That's because at this point naming names is crucial. The grass is always greener in someone else's pasture after all, much less how green it is in a speculative pasture you don't even need to explicitly identify. Until you get specific you're just speaking from your posterior orifice.

 

It's easy to say Theo did a terrible job acquiring SS talent until you start to name who else he should have gotten. Who was available and who wasn't is a critical part of the discussion right now, especially since the free agent market has been very dry on shortstops for years with most of the good ones being locked up by their teams and thus unattainable. .

 

I don't care how big the budget is, holes are going to crop up on any roster especially if the presumptive starter spends the bulk of the season out with this or that injury. Money doesn't even count for anything unless it's spent well, or haven't you watched the Mets recently? The fact is that since Renteria at least there really hasn't been that guy out on the free agent market that is definitely worth spending money ON. Since then among the better free agent shortstops have been Rafael Furcal and his bad back, David Eckstein twice, Khalil Green, Edgar Renteria again, of course Lugo, and a badly dimished offensive version of Orlando Cabrera

 

In short there hasn't been anyone out there that I'd bat higher than 9th. I don't believe in blowing good money on #9 hitters.

 

You'll have to do better than "we're the richest team we can do anything!!!!" in order to convince me some kind of magical super shortstop X was out there that we should have stuck with for these years. You think we should have done what? Sign Rafael Furcal? Are you one of the Orlando Cabrera mouthbreathers? what should we have done that we didn't do?

[Dojji]

My frustration isnt based solely on this season.

 

I didnt want to see Ocab go, but obv he had to with the whole Keith Foulke thing. Fine

 

I didnt want Hanley Ramirez to get traded, but understood what the trade brought us back (WS title)

 

I was excited when they got Renteria. I didnt want to see Renteria go. He was horrible defensively, but he was still useful offensively, and I really thought his defense was an aberration.

 

I didnt want to see Gonzalez go. Best ive ever seen with the glove, obviously hes aged. He was bad offensively, but not to the levels of this season although his OB numbers were atrocious. He did hit 9 HR and have 50 RBIS, while not the most telling offensive stats when you look at his OB production numbers, but we knew what we were getting, so I think he outperformed expectations.

 

I was pissed off when they got Lugo, I never liked him, and Im pissed off they got rid of him.

 

Lowrie was a nice surprise last year, but ill give him the benefit of doubt and say injuries have robbed him off anything he was capable of doing.

 

The Woodward deal was reactionary to Lowrie getting DL'd, Gonzalez was reactionary to Lowrie as well as looked at as an improvement to Woodward.

 

Its just a whole frustrating series of events.

 

 

So in other words, you're just generally grumpy about the course of the team and the troubles shortstop is just an excuse to rant.

 

Fine, I can deal with that, but don't go pretending it's something else.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

My oh my, how our standards have decreased.

 

This is a terrible move for the Red Sox. Atrocious. Gonzalez is not a good defensive SS anymore. He had s***** range in 2006. He's had knee and elbow injuries since then.

 

f***ing awful, indefensible move. I'd rather call Navarro up.

How is it awful and indefensible? Virtually nothing was sacrificed to get him. Cincinnati is eating a portion of his contract. We gave up a nothing minor leaguer. I'm sure if Lowrie's injury troubles were as daunting before the deadline as they are now, Theo would have taken measures to acquire something other than a non-longterm solution at the position.

 

I prefer Gonzalez to Chris Woodward, definitely.

[The_Destroyah]

How is it awful and indefensible? Virtually nothing was sacrificed to get him. Cincinnati is eating a portion of his contract. We gave up a nothing minor leaguer. I'm sure if Lowrie's injury troubles were as daunting before the deadline as they are now, Theo would have taken measures to acquire something other than a non-longterm solution at the position.

 

I prefer Gonzalez to Chris Woodward, definitely.

 

this. how is getting someone better than we have for nothing a bad move?

[SCM33]

So in other words, you're just generally grumpy about the course of the team and the troubles shortstop is just an excuse to rant.

 

Fine, I can deal with that, but don't go pretending it's something else.

 

No, im frustrated with the SS ordeal. Nothing more. Dont put words in my mouth.

[Dojji]

We're all frustrated with the SS ordeal, Theo probably more than any of us. No one likes churning replacement level players through a team when they're trying to win it all.

 

Bearing in mind that Theo nearly resigned over the trading away of Hanley Ramirez, are you guys ever going to suggest ANYONE who would actually have solved the problem well enough that Theo's actually culpable for this mess? or are you just going to grouse?

[Dipre]

I only saw one guy that we even potentially could have gotten who would represent enough of a sure thing that we should deal anything of consequence for him -- Jhonny Peralta. And we have no idea if the Guardians have any intention of listening to offers for him.

 

Johnny Peralta's a streaky hitter, an awful fielder, and a drama queen.

[Dojji]

Johnny Peralta's a streaky hitter' date=' an awful fielder, and a drama queen.[/quote']

 

And he's still the best candidate we could really have acquired to this point.

[Dipre]

And he's still the best candidate we could really have acquired to this point.

 

Tells you a lot about the available SS and why it was better to just go get a stopgap.

[TheKilo]

How is it awful and indefensible? Virtually nothing was sacrificed to get him. Cincinnati is eating a portion of his contract. We gave up a nothing minor leaguer. I'm sure if Lowrie's injury troubles were as daunting before the deadline as they are now, Theo would have taken measures to acquire something other than a non-longterm solution at the position.

 

I prefer Gonzalez to Chris Woodward, definitely.

 

He's not better than Nick Green, he's not better than Jed Lowrie, who by all accounts will be back in a few weeks.

 

Anyone calling this an upgrade is fooling themselves, he sucked in 2006. He has a .258 OBP this season.

 

Theo should be embarrassed.

 

Anyone advocating Gonzalez over Peralta is a damned fool.