Can Theo take a hit here?

[d-money]

Theo should take a hit here.He brung in Smoltz and Penny and they both have been putrid!They dont give this team a chance to come back and win the game.He could have tried and maded a deal for a 3rd starter in the trading deadline and instead went for some offenseive help which was needed as well.I know there wasnt much out there but anyone is better then these two jokers right now!Another thing is this infatuation with Clay Buchholz who looks to be very overrated.His fastball looks mediocre.I am just pissed that the pitching staff has a big hole after Beckett and Lester.Now this team is counting on Tim Wakefield who is on his last leg and Dice K coming back with his nibbling!Ughhhh

[SCM33]

another new user, another pointless thread. There should be a minimum of posts before you are allowed to create a thread. This has been talked about elsewhere.

[d-money]

I wanna get it out in the open.Everyone always gives praises to Theo.He finally maded moves that havent worked out.Buchholz is not the pitching gem of this organization anymore.

[jacksonianmarch]

New posters guys. Give them a chance. There are some forums that do this to every newb and before you know it, they become graveyards.

[Mr Crunchy]

f*** off Jacko, patronizing motherless f***, give him a chance....Kidding

Its hard coming in here and wanting to discuss things that have been analyzed by the panel ad nauseum.

It wasnt a bad idea bringing in Smoltz and Penny but it emphasizes the huge discrepency in talent between the National League and American...I heard a guy on espn say that St Louis has the best 3 man rotation in their league and that maybe true. Whats also true is that of the 3 men 2 were waived by AL teams including Joelle Piniero, a guy who couldnt get anyone out in the AL and now is very effective in the NL...Penny and Smoltz could probably still be effective if they didnt have to see the DH and the deeper teams we have in the AL, they are simply useless here,especially Smoltz.

[Dojji]

Agreed. Given their opening day roster, the Kansas City Royals or Cleveland Guardians might be competitive in the NLW.

 

Just to get this thread back onto a productive track I'd like to answer D-money's question with a question if I may: Exactly how much do you blame a GM for good moves that don't work? Do you write them a pass if it was a worthy try and just doesn't pan out? Or is there a point where they have to get this stuff right?

[jacksonianmarch]

Dojji, I will answer your question with another question. How can you call a move "good" if it doesnt work out? Isnt that by definition a "bad move"?

[Dojji]

That's kind of what I'm talking about. That's a very legitimate way of looking at things (and one I'd expect to hear from a NYY fan, but that's neither here nor there) but you can't look at every move the GM makes that doesn't pan out as a bad move just because you have the benefit of hindsight either. My question is where do you draw that line.

[jacksonianmarch]

Every GM has clunkers. Actually, most GMs make more clunkers than they do steals. Typically, a GM is forged by one or two deals that solidify the team for a decade and allow for the mistakes to get fritted away like they never happened.

[Dojji]

That's kinda ducking the question IMHO. I'm asking at what point you turn on or criticize a guy for making a move that made sense in the offseason and blows up in his face. "Every GM has a few bad days" sort of addresses the question but IMHO not really.

[jacksonianmarch]

It is evaluated on a yr to yr basis. A world series title gives you a 2 yr window IMO. That window is coming to a close at the end of this yr. If they win it again, everything will be forgotten.

[a700hitter]

Give the newbie a chance. Too many time we turn obnoxious on a new poster and chase them away. What was done to that guy who complained about players not signing autographs was despicable. It was a completely valid point and no reason to attack the guy. That's how he felt about the players. A lot of players are major immature a-holes, yet we chopped up the poster telling him he was an idiot to feel the way he felt. Knock off the feeding frenzy on the newbies unless the are conspiracy theorists or yankee fans.

[rhet]

You have to look at the body of work. While individual moves are always subject to criticism, at some point a pattern of consistent success or failure with those moves emerges. Also, every GM should be responsible for the makeup of the roster. Short of the swine flu, there simply is no excuse for a high budget team to run out of competitive players.

[redsoxrules]

Smoltz and Penny were awfull pickups , end of discussion

[Dipre]

Give the newbie a chance. Too many time we turn obnoxious on a new poster and chase them away. What was done to that guy who complained about players not signing autographs was despicable. It was a completely valid point and no reason to attack the guy. That's how he felt about the players. A lot of players are major immature a-holes' date=' yet we chopped up the poster telling him he was an idiot to feel the way he felt. Knock off the feeding frenzy on the newbies unless the are conspiracy theorists or yankee fans.[/quote']

 

This is very true.

 

 

Smoltz and Penny were awfull pickups ' date=' end of discussion[/quote']

 

Penny has given this team exactly what was expected of him.

 

Smoltz, on the other hand has no excuse.

[redsoxrules]

This is very true.

 

 

 

 

Penny has given this team exactly what was expected of him.

 

Smoltz, on the other hand has no excuse.

 

WTF has penny given us?

[Dipre]

WTF has penny given us?

 

Close to league average innings.

 

What, did you expect more?

[rhet]

Close to league average innings.

 

What, did you expect more?

 

I expected a core pitching acquisition to be better than a 5.20 ERA and 1.50 WHIP.

[Dipre]

I expected a core pitching acquisition to be better than a 5.20 ERA and 1.50 WHIP.

 

Then you were the only one.

 

Penny was actually supposed to hold the fort until Smoltz got back.

 

So much for that plan.

[rhet]

Then you were the only one.

 

Penny was actually supposed to hold the fort until Smoltz got back.

 

So much for that plan.

 

Me and Theo, since he gave him $5 million to perform this year. You don't give 5.20/1.50 that kind of dough.

[Dipre]

Me and Theo' date=' since he gave him $5 million to perform this year. You don't give 5.20/1.50 that kind of dough.[/quote']

 

In all fairness, a flyer was being taken on the guy.

[jacksonianmarch]

but a flier is a minor league deal. 5 mil for a player is not a flier.

[Dipre]

but a flier is a minor league deal. 5 mil for a player is not a flier.

 

Wow, this coming from a Yankee fan.

 

Hypocrisy at its best.

[a700hitter]

With Penny and Smoltz we got a $10 million sack of s***. Some of us saw this coming.. Low risk moves....yeah right. Maybe that is true for the opposing batters who have beatem them mercilessly.

[jacksonianmarch]

Right, 10 million dollars should get you a good player. Sometimes it doesnt (Carl f***ing Pavano). The fact that you spread out the 10 mil over 2 players who have significant risk attached doesnt change things at all.

[TheKilo]

Answer to this question? Absolutely. He constructed a very old, very creaky team and is having his ass handed to him for it.

[SCM33]

Answer to this question? Absolutely. He constructed a very old' date=' very creaky team and is having his ass handed to him for it.[/quote']

 

If they dont start improving dramatically, we may be looking at a repeat of 2006 with Theo making small moves to improve the team next year. I am still wondering if the VMart deal was done for this year or next, since the obvious deal of acquiring Halladay would have made the team better now rather than later. I bet Theo takes a serious run at Halladay in the offseason now.

[Keeper]

VMart is a nice acquisition, but he doesn't solve the team's biggest need right now: starting pitching. Theo should definitely take a hit. For what Ricciardi was asking for, getting Halladay may have been unrealistic. However, Cliff Lee could have been got.

[TheKilo]

Cliff Lee was traded for four prospects, all of which have a realistic shot of contributing to the ML team.

 

I agree that he should have been the target, but let's not say he was traded for peanuts.

[Keeper]

I didn't say he was traded for peanuts. But he could have been got. What the Sox gave up for VMart probably would have also worked for Lee.