All that is Halladay

[Dipre]

Until that happens' date=' he's only under contract for one year though.[/quote']

 

This is my issue.

 

Everyone's talking like an extension after you trade for him is a given, and it's not. I'll believe in the "extension window" when i see it happening like with Johan.

[BoSox21]

I hope the Yankees avoid this guy. Save up for Mauer next off season

 

lol, using the word "Yankees" and "save up" in the same sentence without using "don't have to"

[ehaz]

This is my issue.

 

Everyone's talking like an extension after you trade for him is a given, and it's not. I'll believe in the "extension window" when i see it happening like with Johan.

http://hotstove.mlblogs.com/archives/2009/11/jays_gm_keeping_an_open_mind.html

 

Of course it's just a report but how much more would you give up if you could sign Halladay to an extension?

[Dipre]

http://hotstove.mlblogs.com/archives/2009/11/jays_gm_keeping_an_open_mind.html

 

Of course it's just a report but how much more would you give up if you could sign Halladay to an extension?

 

That's my point.

 

Not only is it just a report, but would we be able to actually strike a deal with Halladay?

 

What if he wants more than 5 years? What if he wants more than 20 per?

 

Someone here suggested that giving Halladay 6 years at 20 per would be a good deal, but i say f*** that, because he's not going to be worth 20 million at age 36, and certainly not at age 37. Age catches up with everyone, specially if you're a SP in the AL East.

[a700hitter]

That's my point.

 

Not only is it just a report, but would we be able to actually strike a deal with Halladay?

 

What if he wants more than 5 years? What if he wants more than 20 per?

 

Someone here suggested that giving Halladay 6 years at 20 per would be a good deal, but i say f*** that, because he's not going to be worth 20 million at age 36, and certainly not at age 37. Age catches up with everyone, specially if you're a SP in the AL East.

Moose lasted a long time as a very successful pitcher who pitched only in the AL East.

[Dipre]

Moose lasted a long time as a very successful pitcher who pitched only in the AL East.

 

Mike Mussina's age 33 to age 38 seasons:

 

33: 4.05 ERA, 215.2 IP.

 

34: 3.40 ERA, 214.2 IP

 

35: 4.59 ERA, 164.2 IP

 

36:4.41 ERA, 179.2 IP

 

37:3.51 ERA, 197.1 IP

 

38:5.15 ERA, 152.0 IP

 

Which of those seasons you think Mussina was worth 20+ per?

 

I know Halladay's a superior pitcher, but the point is, if you think Halladay's going to last the next 6 years healthy and dominant, you've got another thing coming.

[a700hitter]

Mike Mussina's age 33 to age 38 seasons:

 

33: 4.05 ERA, 215.2 IP.

 

34: 3.40 ERA, 214.2 IP

 

35: 4.59 ERA, 164.2 IP

 

36:4.41 ERA, 179.2 IP

 

37:3.51 ERA, 197.1 IP

 

38:5.15 ERA, 152.0 IP

 

Which of those seasons you think Mussina was worth 20+ per?

 

I know Halladay's a superior pitcher, but the point is, if you think Halladay's going to last the next 6 years healthy and dominant, you've got another thing coming.

Those are fairly consistent #'s by Moose until age 38 when he fell of a cliff. What about Clemens? he pitched successfully in the AL East for many years. With pitchers you just don't know. Their next pitch could be their last. However, there is no sign of declining performance by Halladay due to wear and tear. If anything, his performance has gotten better.

[Dipre]

Those are fairly consistent #'s by Moose until age 38 when he fell of a cliff. What about Clemens? he pitched successfully in the AL East for many years. With pitchers you just don't know. Their next pitch could be their last. However' date=' there is no sign of declining performance by Halladay due to wear and tear. If anything, his performance has gotten better.[/quote']

 

Listen, champ.

 

If you're going to pay a pitcher 20 million a year, he better not post mid-4 ERA's, and pitch more than 200 innings every year, Halladay is on the latter part of his prime, expecting him to be an elite SP through age 38 is incredibly dumb.

 

Look at Mussina's numbers again, but do it without the Halladay fanboy glasses on.

 

He (Halladay) is not going to be worth 20 million per over the next 6 years.

[BSN07]

This is my issue.

 

Everyone's talking like an extension after you trade for him is a given, and it's not. I'll believe in the "extension window" when i see it happening like with Johan.

 

Mine too.

 

My view is if they weren't willing to do all this for Johan, then they aren't going to do it for Halladay IMHO.

[a700hitter]

Listen, champ.

 

If you're going to pay a pitcher 20 million a year, he better not post mid-4 ERA's, and pitch more than 200 innings every year, Halladay is on the latter part of his prime, expecting him to be an elite SP through age 38 is incredibly dumb.

 

Look at Mussina's numbers again, but do it without the Halladay fanboy glasses on.

 

He (Halladay) is not going to be worth 20 million per over the next 6 years.

Since this story broke, I haven't once supported in a single post that the Red Sox should A. trade Buchholz for Halladay or B. Pay Halladay $20 million/year for 6 years.

 

So I have to keep taking off the "Halladay Fanboy" glasses off because you keep sticking them on my face. Why don't you just address yourself to my actual statements instead of telling me what you think my unstated opinion is... huh Champ.

 

I am just saying that there has been no sign of wear and tear in his performance. Has there been, Champ? Second, I said that you never know with a pitcher. His next pitch could be his last. Do you dispute that...Champ? That's why teams need good Doctors to examine these guys before a substantial investment is made. Could you possibly disagree with that, Champ?

[Dipre]

Since this story broke, I haven't once supported in a single post that the Red Sox should A. trade Buchholz for Halladay or B. Pay Halladay $20 million/year for 6 years.

 

So I have to keep taking off the "Halladay Fanboy" glasses off because you keep sticking them on my face. Why don't you just address yourself to my actual statements instead of telling me what you think my unstated opinion is... huh Champ.

 

I am just saying that there has been no sign of wear and tear in his performance. Has there been, Champ? Second, I said that you never know with a pitcher. His next pitch could be his last. Do you dispute that...Champ? That's why teams need good Doctors to examine these guys before a substantial investment is made. Could you possibly disagree with that, Champ?

 

You just DEFENDED the fact that other pitchers have been able to be effective in the AL East through the later part of the '30's, so either you're defending giving Halladay a s***-ton of money through the latter part of his career, or you're just talking for the sake of talking. Your "you don't know with pitchers" argument is a pretty miserable save-face attempt.

 

It's hilarious how now you say you didn't advocate for trading Bucholz for Halladay, that's an outright lie.

[a700hitter]

You just DEFENDED the fact that other pitchers have been able to be effective in the AL East through the later part of the '30's' date=' so either you're defending giving Halladay a s***-ton of money through the latter part of his career, or you're just talking for the sake of talking. Your "you don't know with pitchers" argument is a pretty miserable save-face attempt.[/quote']I didn't advocate one way or another on the point of Halladay's contractual worth. I am just pointing out that your argument that Halladay will crumble in his mid-30's has no basis in fact. Am I allowed to do that without you attributing other opinions to me... chief?

 

It's hilarious how now you say you didn't advocate for trading Bucholz for Halladay' date=' that's an outright lie.[/quote']I advocated to trade Buchholz for halladay in July when we would have had 1 1/2 years of Halladay and he could have helped us make a run at two World Championships. A lot has happened since then. Buchholz has appeared to turn a corner, and Halladay only has a year left on his contract. Not only have I not advocated trading Buchholz for Halladay. I am on record saying that the Jays will not get anything close to Buchholz for Halladay, from anyone. For someone that is here so often, it is surprising that you haven't seen those posts. Perhaps you read posts through your own tainted filter. Maybe you should hit the SAP button before you read my posts so that you can get a better understanding before you start calling people "liar" . Okay chief. You need to stop.

[Dipre]

I didn't advocate one way or another on the point of Halladay's contractual worth. I am just pointing out that your argument that Halladay will crumble in his mid-30's has no basis in fact. Am I allowed to do that without you attributing other opinions to me... chief?

 

Well, chief, if you actually clarify your argument, (even though this is an obvious save-face attempt) there would be no attributing to be done.......champ.

 

I advocated to trade Buchholz for halladay in July when we would have had 1 1/2 years of Halladay and he could have helped us make a run at two World Championships. A lot has happened since then. Buchholz has appeared to turn a corner, and Halladay only has a year left on his contract. Not only have I not advocated trading Buchholz for Halladay. I am on record saying that the Jays will not get anything close to Buchholz for Halladay, from anyone. For someone that is here so often, it is surprising that you haven't seen those posts. Perhaps you read posts through your own tainted filter. Maybe you should hit the SAP button before you read my posts so that you can get a better understanding before you start calling people "liar" . Okay chief. You need to stop.

 

So now Bucholz has appeared to turn a corner and we shouldn't trade him for Halladay?

 

Well, i rest my case on my prior post.

[a700hitter]

So now Bucholz has appeared to turn a corner and we shouldn't trade him for Halladay?

 

Well, i rest my case on my prior post.

I termed his 2009 as encouraging, but with mixed results. It was encouraging because it was a step forward from his 2008 suck. It was mixed, because it was league average. I have also posted several times that he is at a cross-roads year. This is the year he needs to take his game to the next level. I challenge you to find a single post where I am advocating trading Buchholz for 1 year of Halladay or even a long term big money contract with Halladay. Is that clear enough for you...Champ?

[Dipre]

I termed his 2009 as encouraging' date=' but with mixed results. It was encouraging because it was a step forward from his 2008 suck. It was mixed, because it was league average. I have also posted several times that he is at a cross-roads year. This is the year he needs to take his game to the next level. I challenge you to find a single post where I am advocating trading Buchholz for 1 year of Halladay or even a long term big money contract with Halladay. Is that clear enough for you...Champ?[/quote']

 

It's not clear enough. If you actually took a clear stance on the subject it could be, but you don't.

 

Now the mixed results are a good thing, when you're "Mixed results" argument came up when someone said Buch turned the corner last year, so you tried to diminish his performance.

 

Take a stance, and stick with it.........Champ.

[a700hitter]

It's not clear enough. If you actually took a clear stance on the subject it could be, but you don't.

 

Now the mixed results are a good thing, when you're "Mixed results" argument came up when someone said Buch turned the corner last year, so you tried to diminish his performance.

 

Take a stance, and stick with it.........Champ.

My stance has been clear if you would bother reading what I write and not what you think I mean. What is your clear stance? let's pin you down. Are you saying that it would be a bad move for the Sox to get Roy Halladay? I think that it depends on the deal. I know that is not clear to you, but I'll let you make the flat out declaration. Roy Halladay on the Sox... good or bad? Please be clear.

[Dipre]

My stance has been clear if you would bother reading what I write and not what you think I mean. What is your clear stance? let's pin you down. Are you saying that it would be a bad move for the Sox to get Roy Halladay? I think that it depends on the deal. I know that is not clear to you' date=' but I'll let you make the flat out declaration. Roy Halladay on the Sox... good or bad? Please be clear.[/quote']

 

Hey, i already told you.

 

Pick a stance on Bucholz, and stick with it.

 

I'm saying this because i actually read your posts very carefully, so just like now, you cannot directly counter the point i'm attacking, but rather look for a tangent as your means of escape.

 

To answer your question, good, but not for Buch, and not for 20 mill per. Clear enough?

[BSN07]

a700 stance is "trade Buchholz for any proven veteran". And it will be that until Buchholz shows he can handle it the spot, or makes an AS team or something.

 

Which will be difficult because a700 doesn't like having these youngsters taking up important starts for the Sox...

[a700hitter]

a700 stance is "trade Buchholz for any proven veteran". And it will be that until Buchholz shows he can handle it the spot, or makes an AS team or something.

 

Which will be difficult because a700 doesn't like having these youngsters taking up important starts for the Sox...

Back this up with any posts about Buchholz. Otherwise, stop with your misrepresentations of my opinion. My opinion about Buchholz is that because is so close to being a contributor that the deal would have to be very good.

[Dipre]

Back this up with any posts about Buchholz. Otherwise' date=' stop with your misrepresentations of my opinion. My opinion about Buchholz is that because is so close to being a contributor that the deal would have to be very good.[/quote']

 

"Mixed results" does not convey the stance you are now saying you have always held.

[a700hitter]

To answer your question, good, but not for Buch, and not for 20 mill per. Clear enough?

I'd go for the Halladay for Buchholz trade with an extension. I think a reasonable extension would be around 3 years/ $60 million with options and buyouts afterward. Clear enough.

[a700hitter]

"Mixed results" does not convey the stance you are now saying you have always held.

Really, how is that so?

[Dipre]

Really' date=' how is that so?[/quote']

 

A 4.21 ERA with above average peripherals in every category except BB. How is that mixed results?

[a700hitter]

A 4.21 ERA with above average peripherals in every category except BB. How is that mixed results?

Is that star caliber?

[Dipre]

Is that star caliber?

 

*Sigh*.

 

The only one who has talked about star caliber is you.

 

Everyone else is talking about "Turning the corner" or "Solid Performance" When you spoke of "Star Caliber" regarding Buch, it was in an argument advocating for him to be traded for Halladay, essentially meaning you just shot yourself in the foot.

[a700hitter]

*Sigh*.

 

The only one who has talked about star caliber is you.

 

Everyone else is talking about "Turning the corner" or "Solid Performance" When you spoke of "Star Caliber" regarding Buch, it was in an argument advocating for him to be traded for Halladay, essentially meaning you just shot yourself in the foot.

I shot myself in the foot, because I wasn't willing to agree that the corner that he turned was the road to stardom. He may be just be a solid average pitcher. We just don't know yet. Speaking of being clear. Are you saying that you wouldn't trade Buchholz for Halladay under any circumstances? I think that's what you said, but I won't put words in your mouth as you so often do with me. Also, you said that you don't want halladay for $20 million/year. If the Sox got him for someone other than Buchholz, what would you consider a reasonable extension. Please be specific about length and amount. I have been very specific.

[BSN07]

Back this up with any posts about Buchholz. Otherwise' date=' stop with your misrepresentations of my opinion. My opinion about Buchholz is that because is so close to being a contributor that the deal would have to be very good.[/quote']

 

V

V

V

 

I'd go for the Halladay for Buchholz trade with an extension. I think a reasonable extension would be around 3 years/ $60 million with options and buyouts afterward. Clear enough.

 

Young player vs pricey veteran. Thank you for making it easy for me.

 

 

Is that star caliber?

 

Your not seriously using the AS game as a measurement of how good a player is are you?

 

And your senile if you think Halladay signs for 3 years, when he could wait a year and get 5+

[a700hitter]

Your not seriously using the AS game as a measurement of how good a player is are you?

 

And your senile if you think Halladay signs for 3 years, when he could wait a year and get 5+

Now, I am senile? I would warn you that we have rules here. So far today , you have called my post ignorant and me senile. Maybe that is because you can't argue and win an argument based on substance, but refrain from this garbage name-calling.

[a700hitter]

And your senile if you think Halladay signs for 3 years' date=' when he could wait a year and get 5+[/quote']BTW I didn't say that I thought he would sign for this deal. I said that is what I would consider a reasonable offer. We'd extend him for 3 years beyond 2010, giving the Sox 4 years of Halladay taking him to age 36-37.

[BSN07]

Now' date=' I am senile? I would warn you that we have rules here. So far today , you have called my post ignorant and me senile. Maybe that is because you can't argue and win an argument based on substance, but refrain from this garbage name-calling.[/quote']

 

I have not broken any rules. There's nothing against calling a spade a spade. Your post was very ignorant. And you would have to be "senile" or out of your gourd to except that deal.

 

 

BTW I didn't say that I thought he would sign for this deal. I said that is what I would consider a reasonable offer. We'd extend him for 3 years beyond 2010' date=' giving the Sox 4 years of Halladay taking him to age 36-37.[/quote']

 

Yes you would consider it a good deal. But Halladay and the rest of reality isn't naive enough to except those "wooden nickels".