"I'm not a theo guy"

[a700hitter]

A few unsavory things suddenly show up? Unsavory things had been showing up about Manny in the media for years. Manny being Manny didn't mean he was a saint' date=' it meant we deal with the bad because he's a great hitter.[/quote']The Manny Being Manny stuff couldn't be hidden from the public, because it usually involved him not running out balls, publicly demanding trades etc. The press did play into the notion that Manny was just a wacky eccentric who was really a good guy and good teammate. When he quit in 2006 with a phantom knee injury, there was very little about it in the press. Once he was on the way out the door, all of these stories flooded the papers. It's just a fact of business and life. When you are on top in an organization, everyone acts like they love you. When you hit bottom or get canned, everyone says what a jerk you are. This plays out every time a previously beloved star leaves town. Crunchy will point it out the next time it happens.

[Dutchy]

The Manny Being Manny stuff couldn't be hidden from the public' date=' because it usually involved him not running out balls, publicly demanding trades etc. The press did play into the notion that was just a wacky eccentric who was really a good guy and good teammate. When he quit in 2006 with a phantom knee injury, there was very little about it in the press. Once he was on the way out the door, all of these stories flooded the papers. It's just a fact of business and life. When you are on top in an organization, everyone acts like they love you. When you hit bottom or get canned, everyone says what a jerk you are. This plays out every time a previously beloved star leaves town. Crunchy will point it out the next time it happens.[/quote']

 

I agree, the media has a tendency to talk more negatively about someone once they leave town. That plays out in every sport and every city though. It's not anything unique to Boston or the Red Sox.

 

And remember, the Red Sox put Manny on waivers when Theo took over in 2003. It's not like the team acted like he was a saint until they wanted to trade him and then blasted him.

[example1]

You are asking for proof of a conspiracy? There's no formal conspiracy going on' date=' but the same pattern continues time after time. [/quote']

 

Yes, players who leave the Red Sox for more money and more years get ripped by the Boston media. Sometimes they are ripped with publicly known/hinted-at information, sometimes they are ripped by things that reporters sniff out, and sometimes (I admit) Larry Lucchino or John Henry make snide remarks to reporters or on Twitter that are meant to hurt the chances of that player being successful.

 

How Theo gets the blame I don't know. Henry is his boss and Lucchino is at least equal, if not above him. He publically fought with Larry about leaking information and ultimately walked away from the job partly because of it.

 

The press either prints glowing articles about ******* players while they are in the good graces of management. They willingly go along with FO cover stories (some would say coverups), i.e. the Manny Being Manny charade.

 

You think that the national press are taking orders from Theo? How come ESPN pushed the Manny being Manny thing? How come the Dodger fans are showing up in droves to see this guy play, despite his steroid usage, and despite his well-deserved reputation as someone who doesn't show up every day? Are the Dodgers and Red Sox in on the same spin machine?

 

 

IMO, the press goes along with the FO's wishes so they get access etc. Once the FO is done with the guy, the Press gets to chop the guy up. That's the favorite part of their job.

 

If that is the case, which I dispute, then it seems like a good reason not to get on the FO's bad side. Again, I haven't heard a SINGLE example or interview clip of Theo being unprofessional or leaking this information. I acknowledge that Lucchino and Henry have said things, but I don't know about Theo.

 

 

To me, this is all a moot point. What do I care about how D-Lowe feels after cheating on his wife and going to the Dodgers after a s***** season with the Red Sox? What do I care that Pedro chose to leave the Red Sox for the extra money and years in Boston, or that Damon chose to go to NYY for contracts that they RIGHTLY should not have had in Boston? How much did "leaked' information help or hurt Pedro or Damon after they left? None, as far as I can tell.

[example1]

In terms of his performance, I'm not sure how one could argue with the results Theo has had. That said, he is also the beneficiary of some great luck and some fortunate bounces that have occurred under his watch. In 2004 they don't win unless Roberts steals that base. He was safe by an inch. it was that close to the Sox going home empty handed. Theo made the right deals in 2004, but it still could have failed pretty easily. Also, Theo didn't want to deal Hanley Ramirez and Anibel Sanchez for Beckett and Lowell. IIRC that deal happened while he was away from the team and was very much against the type of deal he would like to make, especially with Beckett's inconsistencies at the time.

 

I think Beckett was probably the single acquisition that has helped this team the most after 2004 and it really isn't thanks to Theo at all that Beckett is a Red Sox.

 

I like Theo because I am pretty sure that he understands what it takes to put a winning team on the field. I think his expectations are reasonable and will promote a consistently winning ballclub. What more could we want as fans than to have our team competing as favorites just about every October? That's a huge change from having the team eliminated by August, or having a 'miracle' run that might end in a predictable ALDS loss.

[BSN07]

Jacko I see where your coming from. I also see Dutchy's side of things. But I doubt the FO is leaking these things. Maybe a low level guy leaked something, but I doubt it was on Theo's orders. And I doubt that Theo has The Globe on speed dial.

 

It's probably more due to the reporter's. Whether it be bias or whatever. Maybe some of these guys don't like these players and decide to pile on when they see a shot at them leaving town:dunno: Or,

 

The Red Sox are #1 in Boston. They drive a lot of media there. When one of there players becomes a FA it's a story. And in any story the more attention it has, the more reporters working on it, things tend to get dug up. And whoever get's the best scoop gets the front page of the sports section. Which gets the reporters name out there, blah blah blah. You catch my drift.

 

 

As far as Theo goes. I like him and hope he is around for a very long time. The continued stream of quality players from the minors has been great. His FA signings and trades seem to be a bit polar. A few absolute winners, and a few absolute bombs. And with 2 championships in the last 5 years(even if 2004 was a lot of Duqette(sp) guys, Ortiz, Schilling, Foulke, and a couple others where all brought in by Theo. And without them it's a different team), I find it hard to not like him.

 

The team is in contention year in and year out for the most part. What more really can you ask then that? You don't think Pirates fans would kill to be in contention for the Playoffs and or making the Playoffs every year?

[jacksonianmarch]

You are asking for proof of a conspiracy? There's no formal conspiracy going on' date=' but the same pattern continues time after time. The press either prints glowing articles about ******* players while they are in the good graces of management. They willingly go along with FO cover stories (some would say coverups), i.e. the Manny Being Manny charade. Once the FO no longer has any use for a player and they are showing him the door, a few previously unknown unsavory facts about the player show up in the papers which proceed to strip away the player's public facade and paint a very negative portrait. IMO, the press goes along with the FO's wishes so they get access etc. Once the FO is done with the guy, the Press gets to chop the guy up. That's the favorite part of their job.[/quote']

 

glad your brought some levity to the situation

[a700hitter]

In terms of his performance, I'm not sure how one could argue with the results Theo has had. That said, he is also the beneficiary of some great luck and some fortunate bounces that have occurred under his watch. In 2004 they don't win unless Roberts steals that base. He was safe by an inch. it was that close to the Sox going home empty handed. Theo made the right deals in 2004, but it still could have failed pretty easily. Also, Theo didn't want to deal Hanley Ramirez and Anibel Sanchez for Beckett and Lowell. IIRC that deal happened while he was away from the team and was very much against the type of deal he would like to make, especially with Beckett's inconsistencies at the time.

 

I think Beckett was probably the single acquisition that has helped this team the most after 2004 and it really isn't thanks to Theo at all that Beckett is a Red Sox.

 

I like Theo because I am pretty sure that he understands what it takes to put a winning team on the field. I think his expectations are reasonable and will promote a consistently winning ballclub. What more could we want as fans than to have our team competing as favorites just about every October? That's a huge change from having the team eliminated by August, or having a 'miracle' run that might end in a predictable ALDS loss.

This team is an excellent organization from top to bottom. The difference from what I have witnessed in the past is like night and day. Theo as the General Manager has a lot more responsibilities than roster moves and acquisitions. He certainly deserves a lot of credit for the team's success. However, his record regarding player personnel moves is far from sterling. I would rate it somewhere between average and slightly above average. He has made quite a few clunkers. Until this year, he has had a below average record at building a bullpen. If the performances of Dice K and Drew don't live up to their contracts for the remainder of their terms, then I think Theo's performance could be rated below average. Lugo is already a proven bust. If Drew and Dice K don't live up to their contracts, then the biggest offseason investment in Free Agents in team history (2006 off season) will have been a total bust.

[TheKilo]

Crunchy has made no bones about Theo in the past. I think his point stems from the fact that 2004 was built with Duquette's guys for the most part and Crunch has never been a fan of the way Theo et al escort former stars out the door (ie gutting them in the papers then unceremoniously dealing them with a parting jab on the way out).

 

False

[TheKilo]

That's airing dirty laundry that shouldnt be leaving the lockerroom. I am sorry' date=' but leaking Petey's medical status, leaking DLowe's womanizing and drinking, leaking Nomar's lack of "dedication", leaking Manny's transgressions, and starting stories about Damon's wife and the negotiations were all underhanded. Do you think these beat writers make s*** up? They get their info from the top and once we start hearing it, you know the player is on their way out[/quote']

 

Baseless conjecture

[BSN07]

Baseless conjecture

 

And you expected?

[Dipre]

That's airing dirty laundry that shouldnt be leaving the lockerroom. I am sorry' date=' but leaking Petey's medical status, leaking DLowe's womanizing and drinking, leaking Nomar's lack of "dedication", leaking Manny's transgressions, and starting stories about Damon's wife and the negotiations were all underhanded. Do you think these beat writers make s*** up? They get their info from the top and once we start hearing it, you know the player is on their way out[/quote']

 

You sure have a vivid imagination in both making thisstuff up and blaming it on Epstein.

 

You know what would take this from total and utter ******** to a credible statement?

 

Proof.

 

Got any?

[a700hitter]

Yes, players who leave the Red Sox for more money and more years get ripped by the Boston media. Sometimes they are ripped with publicly known/hinted-at information, sometimes they are ripped by things that reporters sniff out, and sometimes (I admit) Larry Lucchino or John Henry make snide remarks to reporters or on Twitter that are meant to hurt the chances of that player being successful.

 

How Theo gets the blame I don't know. .

I don't place the blame on Theo. I never mentioned Theo in my posts about this. How players are treated on the way out to protect the FO reputation or to justify the FO's decision regarding that player is an aspect of the organization that is not exemplary IMO.

[Dojji]

Ever consider that you guys may be putting the cart before the horse on the whole "players get killed by the media on their way out" thing?

 

I'm just speculating here, but doesn't it make more sense that a reporter picks up negative information about a Sox player and their editor holds it back or restrains it a bit, not because of some conspiracy but because the readers don't want a 24/7 crapfest on a guy they are depending on to help the team win? Gotta cater to the readers at all.

 

After the player leaves, there's no need for that level of restraint, so of course the editors let that information out at that point.

[BoSox21]

^^^it's a very valid theory considering the last thing the editor would want is for their paper to get blacklisted by the player and/or loyal teammates

[Paradisecity]

Ever consider that you guys may be putting the cart before the horse on the whole "players get killed by the media on their way out" thing?

 

I'm just speculating here, but doesn't it make more sense that a reporter picks up negative information about a Sox player and their editor holds it back or restrains it a bit, not because of some conspiracy but because the readers don't want a 24/7 crapfest on a guy they are depending on to help the team win? Gotta cater to the readers at all.

 

After the player leaves, there's no need for that level of restraint, so of course the editors let that information out at that point.

 

This is close to where I stand on this too.

 

People don't want to read "Your favorite sox player is an *******" while they play for the sox, and they do want to read "we don't need that ******* who left the sox." It sells, both ways. Why aren't we looking at basic demand instead of thinking its some sort of team hatchet job every single time?

[a700hitter]

^^^it's a very valid theory considering the last thing the editor would want is for their paper to get blacklisted by the player and/or loyal teammates

This is the key factor. The Press plays footsie with the FO, not so much the player, until the FO is done with the guy. The players really can't blacklist a writer or reporter, because the organization will not allow that. If players had that kind of power, the clubhouses would be almost empty of reporters. It also has nothing to do with the papers catering to the readers. Negative news sells. An article about a guy having a charity bowling tournament can't compare to an article about a guy knocking down a senior citizen, beating his wife, or cheating on his wife. The papers are dying to crush some of the guys that they don't like, but the Red Sox would freeze them out. When the Sox cut ties, they help the writers out with a few tidbits of information and let them proceed to perform a colonoscopy on the guy.

[Dojji]

You're really reaching, you know that?

 

Occam's razor says that the simplest solution is the most likely one. In this case the simplest solution is not collusion, but simply an exercise in crowd pleasing by the editors.

[The_Destroyah]

I honestly don't see how Sox fans can feel anything but love for Theo no one else in anyone heres lifetime has managed to win us one WS much less 2 and i dont think the 2 world series rings is a fluke albeit there was alot of luck involved but you still have to be good to be lucky I think theo has been great even if he made some bum decisions it just shows how good he really is that despite those decisions we are still in the race for #1 in the division every year

[Dipre]

To accuse the FO of "giving juicy tidbits" or "airing dirty laundry" you need something more than conjecture.

 

You need proof.

 

And a couple snide remarks here and there from Lucchino or Henry don't constitute proof, just a lack of restraint sometimes aired out of frustration.

 

Every Sox player the FO has severed ties with since 2003 in unsavory fashion has had problems that are public domain, not a tidbit from the FO, except Johnny Damon.

 

We all knew Nomar was unhappy, Pedro's shoulder was in shreds, D-Lowe is a party animal, and don't get me started on Manny.

 

The Boston media is a raging beast, but i find it kinda douchy (specially from Jacko) not to see that the New York media is just a big a beast, and maybe even worse, since they've basically destroyed Alex Rodriguez while he was a key player in their Yankees, at least the Boston media tries to sweeten it up in some way.

 

And besides, what about some key guys who left on good terms? Millar, Mueller, Timlin, Nixon.

 

Sure, they may lack the star power, but they also weren't prima donnas or trouble makers whose exploits were easy pickings for the media.

[Dojji]

 

And besides, what about some key guys who left on good terms? Millar, Mueller, Timlin, Nixon.

 

Sure, they may lack the star power, but they also weren't prima donnas or trouble makers whose exploits were easy pickings for the media.

 

 

More to the point, the media had every excuse to pound the crap out of Schilling and didn't really do so.

[Dutchy]

glad your brought some levity to the situation

 

One person agrees with you and they have "levity" everyone else disagrees with you and it's "denial".

 

I'm still waiting for you to back up your claim. Show me a situation where the media got ahold of information they shouldn't have on a player that was leaving town. You said it happens all the time, so show me one example.

[Dutchy]

You sure have a vivid imagination in both making thisstuff up and blaming it on Epstein.

 

You know what would take this from total and utter ******** to a credible statement?

 

Proof.

 

Got any?

 

He said it happens all the time but I've asked him for an example of it 3 times now, and the only response I've gotten is "denial :rolleyes:". Gotta love our resident troll.

[Dipre]

He said it happens all the time but I've asked him for an example of it 3 times now' date=' and the only response I've gotten is "denial :rolleyes:". Gotta love our resident troll.[/quote']

 

I wonder if they impart "Trolling 101" in med school.

[The_Destroyah]

I think Pompous s***-Talking is a Highschool course in NY

[Rdsxmbnt]

One person agrees with you and they have "levity" everyone else disagrees with you and it's "denial".

 

Thank you. I hate it during these types of discussions when finally some guy speaks a similar opinion and gets quoted as some voice of reason by the other guy on the other side of the fence. Back up your opinions for yourself please...

 

Anyway there's something to be said about this town and it's players. Baseball is so intense here and fans REALLY cling onto players which makes parting with the bigger name players exceptionally difficult.

 

To me it's really quite annoying. Damon, Pedro, and Lowe were all HUGE parts of the first world championship team so for the front office to decide they want to go in a different direction is a pretty big shocker. Really it's just a business move, Pedro was getting older, Lowe was coming off a bad year, and the Red Sox had other ideas for Damon. I don't think they were run out of town, but rather a hard concept to grasp for the average watcher.

 

I foresee very similar problems in the future with Papelbon and Ortiz. If either were to be let go there will be a similar situation as to when the big three mentioned above were shown the door.

 

My dream is to one day wake up and read the paper and find out we've traded for some big name player without having to deal with the huge shitstorm we read about for the three weeks prior. Why can't we slip through the backdoor and get someone like Holiday like Oakland did without basically any media storm? Not in this town...

[Gom]

My dream is to one day wake up and read the paper and find out we've traded for some big name player without having to deal with the huge shitstorm we read about for the three weeks prior. Why can't we slip through the backdoor and get someone like Holiday like Oakland did without basically any media storm? Not in this town...

 

Mark Teixeira anyone? Wasn't he pretty much signed, sealed, and delivered to Boston? :harhar:

[Dipre]

Thank you. I hate it during these types of discussions when finally some guy speaks a similar opinion and gets quoted as some voice of reason by the other guy on the other side of the fence. Back up your opinions for yourself please...

 

Anyway there's something to be said about this town and it's players. Baseball is so intense here and fans REALLY cling onto players which makes parting with the bigger name players exceptionally difficult.

 

To me it's really quite annoying. Damon, Pedro, and Lowe were all HUGE parts of the first world championship team so for the front office to decide they want to go in a different direction is a pretty big shocker. Really it's just a business move, Pedro was getting older, Lowe was coming off a bad year, and the Red Sox had other ideas for Damon. I don't think they were run out of town, but rather a hard concept to grasp for the average watcher.

 

I foresee very similar problems in the future with Papelbon and Ortiz. If either were to be let go there will be a similar situation as to when the big three mentioned above were shown the door.

 

My dream is to one day wake up and read the paper and find out we've traded for some big name player without having to deal with the huge shitstorm we read about for the three weeks prior. Why can't we slip through the backdoor and get someone like Holiday like Oakland did without basically any media storm? Not in this town...

 

 

Mark Teixeira anyone? Wasn't he pretty much signed' date=' sealed, and delivered to Boston? :harhar:[/quote']

 

I think Pompous s***-Talking is a Highschool course in NY

 

Textbook example.

[The_Destroyah]

Gom might very well teach that class...

[Dipre]

Gom might very well teach that class...

 

He's actually the director of the trolling and s*** talking faculty.

[The_Destroyah]

he is the DiMagio of s*** talking and the Mickey Mantle of being Pomous...he may just be the greatest Pompous s***-talker of all time