How good is Terry Francona??

[TheKilo]

Tito is not bound to the closer's role.

[Dojji]

As demonstrated by going to his closer in a critical situation in the bottom of the ninth to preserve the tie, yes.

 

I still don't see what you seem to think Tito's obvious mistake was in that game. The only problem I see with the way he handled the bullpen was that it didn't result in a win.

 

You're not going to pull your starter after only 4 innings with a lead without at least letting him start the 5th inning. It is acceptable to put your setup man out there in the bottom of the 9th inning of a tied game. But if you don't put your best reliever out there to face his best power hitter in the bottom of the freakin' ninth inning there's something wrong with you. I would have had a bigger problem with Tito if he hadn't gone to Papelbon.

[TheKilo]

He should have gone to Papelbon FIRST, which is the point.

 

You can't have a lead to save if you don't get through the bottom of the 9th anyway.

[Dojji]

I actually agree, i just think that there was no way we were winning that game anyway. Our starter had gone 4 and a third innings, we had to burn the bullpen to get through 9 innings, once we had to go to extra frames there was no chance IMHO. Our only chance was to score in the top of the 10th and we went down 1-2-3.

 

I'm just not convinced preserving Masterson really makes a difference. And WITHOUT benefit of hindsight, there's no way to know that we'd go so meekly in the top of the 10th, or even that Carlos would come up to hit in the bottom of the 9th with a runner on. If you knew those things, it's a no brainer to bring in Papelbon, but without that part, we lost that game more to baseball's version of the fog of war than to some form of blunder on Tito's part.

 

No manager's moves are going to universally stand up to the benefit of hindsight. That's not a fair standard to use.

[SoxSport]

He's probably the best player/media guy at the helm of any team in baseball. Could his bullpen management be a little better? Definitely. But he's the perfect manager for the Red Sox. More often than not' date=' he gets the most out of his players. He manages to give them plenty of days of rest, and still be as competitive as any other team in baseball. He really puts us in a good position come October.[/quote']

 

Well-stated. Gets along well with his players and the media. Does a good job with the lineup, and uses the whole team. He is helped by having an excellent team to manage--perhaps the best in Baseball.

 

I think the bullpen is his weakness, though he is constrained by the pitch count system. That often means 100 pitches for the starter, 5 or 6 innings, and out. 3-4 relievers no matter what the score. That taxes a bullpen. For example, Papelbon (70), Ramirez(72) and Okajima (74) are on track to make 70+ appearances this season. Saito (61) and Delcarmen (62). No wonder the bullpen has been slumping lately. I don't think you can use 3-4 relievers every game without your bullpen sagging in August. In my view, it's the appearances that count for a reliever, since he often throws as many pitches heating up in the bullpen as he does in the game--going 1 inning or so.

[TheKilo]

Welcome to the site

[VA Sox Fan]

Well-stated. Gets along well with his players and the media. Does a good job with the lineup, and uses the whole team. He is helped by having an excellent team to manage--perhaps the best in Baseball.

 

I think the bullpen is his weakness, though he is constrained by the pitch count system. That often means 100 pitches for the starter, 5 or 6 innings, and out. 3-4 relievers no matter what the score. That taxes a bullpen. For example, Papelbon (70), Ramirez(72) and Okajima (74) are on track to make 70+ appearances this season. Saito (61) and Delcarmen (62). No wonder the bullpen has been slumping lately. I don't think you can use 3-4 relievers every game without your bullpen sagging in August. In my view, it's the appearances that count for a reliever, since he often throws as many pitches heating up in the bullpen as he does in the game--going 1 inning or so.

 

Welcome. Good points about his BP management.

 

So you don't think his weakness is keeping Drew out of the line up v. a left handed pitcher?

;)jk

[SoxSport]

Welcome. Good points about his BP management.

 

So you don't think his weakness is keeping Drew out of the line up v. a left handed pitcher?

;)jk

 

I don't know the reasoning there. Could be something we don't know about. Tito shuffles the lineup pretty well--he has a lot of talent to work with. I think he wants Drew healthy in September-October, as a priority. Drew can carry a team when he gets hot, but he isn't a 160 game guy. I doubt you would see that platoon in the playoffs if Drew is healthy.

[VA Sox Fan]

I don't know the reasoning there. Could be something we don't know about. Tito shuffles the lineup pretty well--he has a lot of talent to work with. I think he wants Drew healthy in September-October' date=' as a priority. Drew can carry a team when he gets hot, but he isn't a 160 game guy. I doubt you would see that platoon in the playoffs if Drew is healthy.[/quote']

 

Excellent points again. Thank you. Gotta have a healthy Drew, no doubt.

 

There is a lot of things we don't know about, that's why I rarely question Tito's decisions. BP usage does make me scratch my head from time to time. Glad they are getting this break.

[Spudboy]

Welcome aboard Sport. It's good to see thoughtful posts from newcomers.

 

Hope to see you on the Game Threads.

[SCM33]

Just learned that tonight neither Youkilis, or Victor Martinez are in the lineup tonight (9/15/09). This is a huge series for us, and there is already uncertainty with Dice-K on the mound, throw in the slugging Varitek and Kotchman, and I am really pressed as to what Theo is doing here.

[Cocos Disciples]

Youk is hurt and Martinez has a family emergency.

[RWTP24]

Youk is hurt and Martinez has a family emergency.

 

What is wrong with Youk?

[TheKilo]

Back spasms.

[RWTP24]

I am not going to lie, if Francona gets the Sox another ring this year. I would have to put him up on the top of the list of best managers all time.

 

Now with that being said, what do you guys think?? If he wins 3 rings out of 6 years, where would you rank him?

[example1]

He would be up there with the best managers in recent decades. Don't know how he compares with Connie Mack or John McGraw, or whether that kind of thing matters. He would certainly be seen as better than Lou Pinella, and probably right there with LaRussa.

 

Francona has a very calming influence on a stressful locker room. Remember, he was hand picked by Theo and Co., and that was obviously a very good and durable choice.

[Dipre]

He would be up there with the best managers in recent decades. Don't know how he compares with Connie Mack or John McGraw' date=' or whether that kind of thing matters. He would certainly be seen as better than Lou Pinella, [b']and probably right there with LaRussa.

[/b]

Francona has a very calming influence on a stressful locker room. Remember, he was hand picked by Theo and Co., and that was obviously a very good and durable choice.

 

Lol no.

[Youk Of The Nation]

Francona is as good as LaRussa in the same way Nicholas Cage is as good an actor as Denzel Washington.

[Dipre]

Francona is as good as LaRussa in the same way Nicholas Cage is as good an actor as Denzel Washington.

 

Thank you.

 

I think it didn't even warrant an explanation though.

[Cocos Disciples]

Saying he's better than Piniella isn't all that flattering.

[example1]

Lol no.

 

Lol why not?

[example1]

Thank you.

 

I think it didn't even warrant an explanation though.

 

This is kind of what I'm coming to expect from you, unfortunately. I make a claim, I'm a reasonable poster, go ahead and explain my view away. Instead you believe it is so patently false that it doesn't warrant an explanation.

[Dipre]

This is kind of what I'm coming to expect from you' date=' unfortunately. I make a claim, I'm a reasonable poster, go ahead and explain my view away. Instead you believe it is so patently false that it doesn't warrant an explanation.[/quote']

 

*Sigh*

 

Ok then.

 

Do you really want me to waste 30 minutes of my life looking up info of what you already know?

 

Terry Francona is a good manager because the Red Sox are a powerhouse team.

 

Wasn't so good in Philly was he?

 

Please compare his accomplishments to LaRussa's before you make a claim like that.

 

Not only that, but YOTN said the same thing i did, no explanation, but you come bait me, right?

 

Fear the mod?

[example1]

BTW, if they win the WS this year he would have won 3 WS in 10 years as a manager.

 

That would tie him for 4th all time.

 

Top managers (WS Won//Years managed):

 

Stengel: 7 WS (25 years)

McCarthy: 7 WS (24 years)

Mack: 5 WS (53 years)

Torre: 4 WS (28 years)

Alston: 4 WS (23 years)

Anderson: 3 WS (26 years)

Huggins: 3 WS (17 years)

McGraw: 3 WS (33 years)

 

LaRussa: 2 WS (31 years)

 

Every manager who has won 3 WS or more is in the HOF except for Joe Torre (it's just a matter of time).

 

I'm open to argument. I don't know if Francona is the best game manager in baseball. I do know that he has managed a VERY difficult baseball environment during a very difficult era without EVER coming under enough criticism for people to call for his job. He has had a very good team, but also lots of big egos to manage.

[Dipre]

Tony LaRussa's career:

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/managers/larusto01.shtml

 

Terry Francona's career:

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/managers/larusto01.shtml

 

They sure do match up favorably, amirite?

 

Specially LaRussa's 10 pennants, 2 WS and 4 manager of the year awards.

 

Not to mention the fact that LaRussa took that half-assed 2006 Cardinals team to the World Series.

 

Also, anyone who thinks Francona is in the same universe as LaRussa strategically speaking is not very realistic.

 

But hey, it's what you've come to expect from me, right?

 

COMMON SENSE.

[Dipre]

BTW, if they win the WS this year he would have won 3 WS in 10 years as a manager.

 

That would tie him for 4th all time.

 

Top managers (WS Won//Years managed):

 

Stengel: 7 WS (25 years)

McCarthy: 7 WS (24 years)

Mack: 5 WS (53 years)

Torre: 4 WS (28 years)

Alston: 4 WS (23 years)

Anderson: 3 WS (26 years)

Huggins: 3 WS (17 years)

McGraw: 3 WS (33 years)

 

LaRussa: 2 WS (31 years)

 

Every manager who has won 3 WS or more is in the HOF except for Joe Torre (it's just a matter of time).

 

I'm open to argument. I don't know if Francona is the best game manager in baseball. I do know that he has managed a VERY difficult baseball environment during a very difficult era without EVER coming under enough criticism for people to call for his job. He has had a very good team, but also lots of big egos to manage.

 

Francona is an awful manager strategically speaking.

 

Not to mention i don't appreciate the baiting.

 

So how about if we just leave it at that.

[example1]

*Sigh*

 

Ok then.

 

Do you really want me to waste 30 minutes of my life looking up info of what you already know?

 

Sorry. Perhaps you should go back to discussing YOTN's date tonight. Sorry to waste your time by asking you to back up your opinion.

 

Terry Francona is a good manager because the Red Sox are a powerhouse team.

 

Wasn't so good in Philly was he?

 

The A's weren't a powerhouse team? The Cards with Edmonds, Pujols, Rolen, Walker, etc., weren't a powerhouse team?

 

All the best managers manage power house teams. That's why we discuss them.

 

Please compare his accomplishments to LaRussa's before you make a claim like that.

 

They've won the same number of WS in much less time. He won 3 straight AL Pennants in 88, 89 and 90, but lost in the WS twice.

 

LaRussa has won his division 12 times and won 2 WS and 5 pennants.

 

Not only that, but YOTN said the same thing i did, no explanation, but you come bait me, right?

 

If you can't take someone coming back at you then don't post the half-hearted comments without anything to back yourself up. YOTN was agreeing with you. You commented first (sort of, with "lol, no") so I responded to you...

 

 

Fear the mod?

 

Never have before. YOTN and I have no beef.

[Spudboy]

I like Terry Francona. He is pretty much ideally suited for this team and market. He is very good with the media, which is not insignificant around here.

 

I don't always agree with his moves, but I concede that he knows far more about what he is doing than me. For that matter, I think it is presumptuous of anyone at Talksox to think that they understand the game better than he does.

[redsoxrules]

If we had a different manager last year in the post season we would have been in the WS and possibly won it

 

Tito f***ed up game 2 big time by leaving beckett in too long. we should of won that game

[Dipre]

Sorry. Perhaps you should go back to discussing YOTN's date tonight. Sorry to waste your time by asking you to back up your opinion.

 

You do know you can do that without being a douche?

 

The A's weren't a powerhouse team? The Cards with Edmonds, Pujols, Rolen, Walker, etc., weren't a powerhouse team?

 

All the best managers manage power house teams. That's why we discuss them.

 

Post-2004 Cards.

 

2006 to be specific.

 

They've won the same number of WS in much less time. He won 3 straight AL Pennants in 88, 89 and 90, but lost in the WS twice.

 

LaRussa has won his division 12 times and won 2 WS and 5 pennants.

Post-season= Crapshoot.

 

2,500 + career wins does not = crapshoot.

 

If you can't take someone coming back at you then don't post the half-hearted comments without anything to back yourself up. YOTN was agreeing with you. You commented first (sort of, with "lol, no") so I responded to you...

 

It doesn't matter, you were being a douche and baiting.

 

You could've asked for me to back it up, simply.

 

But apparently you wanna whore some attention today.

 

Obvious troll is obvious.

 

Never have before. YOTN and I have no beef.

 

Of course you don't.