How good is Terry Francona??

[Dojji]

Easy to blame Tito for this one, but every now and again a manager runs into a situation where he makes the right move over and over again and it doesn't work. That was tonight.

 

Even if he was tired and it wasn't the smartest move to chance Masterson for a third inning of relief, he's still a talented pitcher -- he should have struggled, maybe let up a run or two, and then got out of it. Besides, he was rested, although perhaps that was part of the problem, since I noticed that he was throwing very hard in his first 2 innings of work and maybe the sinker just wasn't there for him when that wore off.

 

Also, both Oki and Saito should have been their usual, effective selves. You can only blame Tito so much for trying to leave guys in for extra innings when the starter was only able to go 4 innings. And you can't blame him at all for going to dominant relievers who somehow don't get the job done this time.

 

File this one more under "ideas that made sense or at least should have worked out better than they did."

[The_Destroyah]

Easy to blame Tito for this one, but every now and again a manager runs into a situation where he makes the right move over and over again and it doesn't work. That was tonight.

 

Even if he was tired and it wasn't the smartest move to chance Masterson for a third inning of relief, he's still a talented pitcher -- he should have struggled, maybe let up a run or two, and then got out of it. Besides, he was rested, although perhaps that was part of the problem, since I noticed that he was throwing very hard in his first 2 innings of work and maybe the sinker just wasn't there for him when that wore off.

 

Also, both Oki and Saito should have been their usual, effective selves. You can only blame Tito so much for trying to leave guys in for extra innings when the starter was only able to go 4 innings. And you can't blame him at all for going to dominant relievers who somehow don't get the job done this time.

 

File this one more under "ideas that made sense or at least should have worked out better than they did."

agreed tito gets some blame for this but so does anyone listed as an RP

[RedSoxRooter]

Think real hard and remember the last time something like this happened. The Sox are a joke for one night on ESPN, then tomorrow they probably win. Oh, and the rain delay had everything to do with this.. I'm still more pissed I didn't get to see 7 innings from Smoltz more than the loss. I don't know why - I'm not a Francona appologist, but for some reason I understand (given a particular situation) why he does stuff. I just get it. I don't think he's a bad manager at all.

[The_Destroyah]

Think real hard and remember the last time something like this happened. The Sox are a joke for one night on ESPN' date=' then tomorrow they probably win. Oh, and the rain delay had everything to do with this.. I'm still more pissed I didn't get to see 7 innings from Smoltz more than the loss. I don't know why - I'm not a Francona appologist, but for some reason I understand (given a particular situation) why he does stuff. I just get it. I don't think he's a bad manager at all.[/quote']

 

me either i think he is an exxcelent manager but i do think he made a mistake having Oki start the 8th inning instead of Saito or Pap

[Gom]

Dude, how can you possibly blame Tito for this one?

 

He took an ancient pitcher in Smoltz out of the game when it seemed in hand. The same pitcher had just come back from surgery and could use some rest. Any manager in baseball should have done that.

 

He basically threw everything out there, in the correct pecking order....Masterson, Delcarmen, Okajima, Saito, and then Paps. They didn't do the job.

 

Put this loss 100% on the players.

[The_Destroyah]

id say 90% on the players but i dont think Oki should have been in again the 8th inning but you also cant blame Tito for not wanting to have to use another arm if he didnt have to

[Gom]

The only thing I didn't get was where was Ramirez?

[The_Destroyah]

The only thing I didn't get was where was Ramirez?

 

dunno i guess he wanted to save Ramirez for tomorrow since Masterson wont be able to pitch, i have no clue

[Keeper]

me either i think he is an exxcelent manager but i do think he made a mistake having Oki start the 8th inning instead of Saito or Pap

 

You would have put in Papelbon with a 4-run lead to start the 8th inning? Really?

 

I'm with Gom on this one. Can't blame Tito at all for this loss.

[The_Destroyah]

You would have put in Papelbon with a 4-run lead to start the 8th inning? Really?

 

I'm with Gom on this one. Can't blame Tito at all for this loss.

 

no i really would have put in saito but like i said i really dont know that i blame tito for not wanting to use another arm if he didnt have to and it shouldnt have mattered the Bullpen should not have let that happen.

[Gom]

I think everyone puts too much blame [and conversely gives too much credit] to the managers based upon the outcome. You can pinch-hit Pujols and he can hit a line drive caught on the run on the warning-track by the CF, or you can pinch-hit Nick Green and he can hit a bloop single between three players to win the game.

 

Blame the manager if he makes the WRONG move before the outcome is decided. If you lose with your best, how can you blame him?

 

That being said, Tito didn't make any bad moves...and no one was criticizing his moves [lineup, rotation, etc.] when you were up 10-1. Can't have it both ways.

[The_Destroyah]

I think everyone puts too much blame [and conversely gives too much credit] to the managers based upon the outcome. You can pinch-hit Pujols and he can hit a line drive caught on the run on the warning-track by the CF, or you can pinch-hit Nick Green and he can hit a bloop single between three players to win the game.

 

Blame the manager if he makes the WRONG move before the outcome is decided. If you lose with your best, how can you blame him?

 

That being said, Tito didn't make any bad moves...and no one was criticizing his moves [lineup, rotation, etc.] when you were up 10-1. Can't have it both ways.

 

ill agree with that its alot easier to critisize after the fact, and in the end he knows what he is doing alot better than any of us do

[Dojji]

. I'm still more pissed I didn't get to see 7 innings from Smoltz more than the loss. .

 

I actually think Smoltz caught a break here. He got his workout and didn't have to throw a lot of pitches to do it. The one silver lining to all this is that Smoltz actually got a good opportunity to work out the kinks without being taxed to his limit, it was almost an ideal situation for a recovering pitcher.

[Dutchy]

I think everyone puts too much blame [and conversely gives too much credit] to the managers based upon the outcome. You can pinch-hit Pujols and he can hit a line drive caught on the run on the warning-track by the CF, or you can pinch-hit Nick Green and he can hit a bloop single between three players to win the game.

 

Blame the manager if he makes the WRONG move before the outcome is decided. If you lose with your best, how can you blame him?

 

That being said, Tito didn't make any bad moves...and no one was criticizing his moves [lineup, rotation, etc.] when you were up 10-1. Can't have it both ways.

 

Wow Gom, well said :thumbsup:

 

I agree with everything you said, and I was trying to make the same points in the game thread.

[Sandlot2009]

Blame the manager if he makes the WRONG move before the outcome is decided. If you lose with your best, how can you blame him?

 

Yea man, well said. Now let's see what the media does after today's day game...

[Dojji]

I wonder how this game would have gone if Tito had told ramirez to pitch around Johnson, who we already knew was red hot tonight.

 

It's pure hindsight. But still, I wonder.

[a700hitter]

I wonder how this game would have gone if Tito had told ramirez to pitch around Johnson, who we already knew was red hot tonight.

 

It's pure hindsight. But still, I wonder.

 

It didn't matter who was batting in that spot. It was a terrible 0-2 pitch.

[BoSox21]

From CHB...

 

Pedroia actually returned to Fenway during Monday night’s game, only to be sent back to the hospital by his manager.

 

“My wife told me to come back here and play the game so I came back,’’ said Pedroia. “I kind of do what I’m told. Tito said, ‘You got to get out of here, man. Obviously, you got to take care of your family.’ I headed back, spent the night. It’s good. They had this little bed in there.

 

“It was tough. It’s our first child. I didn’t really know what to do. I’m learning on the fly. It kind of happened real fast. I’m glad she’s OK and the baby seems to be OK. I’m going to wait and see. She’s probably going to be in there a while. But we’ll get through it.’’

 

This is where Francona is at his best. As the son of a 15-year major league ballplayer, the Sox skipper lives at the corner of Old School and New School. He grew up seeing things done the old way and now he brings his own rules to the game.

 

Players’ families come first. It earns him a lot of loyalty in his clubhouse.

 

“Times have changed,’’ said Francona. “Different people probably feel differently. If one of our players’ wives is giving birth, I think they should be there. I just feel what I feel and do what I feel is right.’’

 

Pedroia certainly won’t forget these last few days. He has new appreciation for his bosses.

 

“It’s the best,’’ he said. “The Red Sox organization. [GM] Theo [Epstein] texted me late last night. My whole team. That’s why we’re a great team, because we care about each other.’’

 

One of the things that go unnoticed when people judge Francona as a manager

[BSN07]

From CHB...

 

 

 

One of the things that go unnoticed when people judge Francona as a manager

 

This is the type of thing that that allows me to no get mad at some questionable on the field calls. Because in the end, I believe the team to be in good hands.

[Dojji]

He may not be the greatest tactician, but he's a very good man, and sometimes that matters even more.

[BoSox21]

I think a lot of people would compare that aspect of Francona's job to be just as irrelevant as Varitek's "intangibles" believing that the only important part of the manager's job is to be a good on-field tactician

[Dojji]

Some people are crazy. The game rarely swings on managerial moves as long as you have a talented team, and we do. Building a good clubhouse environment and doing a good job taking care of your players, getting them fired up and confident, these things probably add more wins than who you bring in out of the pen (especially this pen where everyone's a weapon) or who you pinch hit with.

[BoSox21]

I just find it funny that we both used the word tactician at the same time when it hadn't been mentioned at all up to this point

[Dojji]

Well, Francona's on field finesse has never been held in high regard. It's an easy criticism to make so you might as well rebut it out of hand.

[ronsox]

My problem is with Terry Francona. I know everyone loves him, but I feel he waits too long to make decisions. Tonight is a prime example. He brings Wakefield, who had a great game, back out for the 7th inning, with 93 pitches thrown. He had Manny Del Carmen all warmed up. The decision was even questioned in the press box. Why try to wring another inning out of Wakefield with the bull pen he has? Result. Two hits, bring in Del Carmen now with two men on. A walk and a base hit and two runs score. Look back over many games. He does not make decisions when he should.

[a700hitter]

My problem is with Terry Francona. I know everyone loves him' date=' but I feel he waits too long to make decisions. Tonight is a prime example. He brings Wakefield, who had a great game, back out for the 7th inning, with 93 pitches thrown. He had Manny Del Carmen all warmed up. The decision was even questioned in the press box. Why try to wring another inning out of Wakefield with the bull pen he has? Result. Two hits, bring in Del Carmen now with two men on. A walk and a base hit and two runs score. Look back over many games. He does not make decisions when he should.[/quote']Terry is God. There should be a statue of him.

[BoSox21]

How Good is Terry Francona??

[ms_sox]

He does not make decisions when he should.

He apparently makes enough decisions when he should to guide/mentor this team to be a competitive/winning team.

What do you expect? He's not psychic, and neither are any of us. Hindsight is always 20/20.

 

He's doing just fine, thank you.

[Spudboy]

Yeah, it's frustrating at times. But I'm confident that he is much better qualified to make these decisions than anyone on this board.

[The_Destroyah]

Yeah' date=' it's frustrating at times. But I'm confident that he is much better qualified to make these decisions than anyone on this board.[/quote']

 

except for Ronsox up there he seems pretty qualified