Teixeira and Henry War of Words

[Dipre]

While I agree with what you said, I suspect you don't really mean it. You were ready to throw them under the bus for stupidity in the throw away comment you made to my previous post.

 

That said, I do agree. They are unlikely to bow to the court of public opinion. That said, Boras has needled future negotiating partners in the public forum for years, and I don't see why we need to look beyond it as part of his negotiating tactic. Maybe it doesn't work most of the time, which is what I suspect is the case, but it probably has paid off at one time or another, which just adds to the benefit for Boras. It's not like there's much at risk here for him.

 

Like i said before:

 

Who needs a LF?

 

Boras or the Boston Red Sox.

[a700hitter]

While I agree with what you said, I suspect you don't really mean it. You were ready to throw them under the bus for stupidity in the throw away comment you made to my previous post.

 

That said, I do agree. They are unlikely to bow to the court of public opinion. That said, Boras has needled future negotiating partners in the public forum for years, and I don't see why we need to look beyond it as part of his negotiating tactic. Maybe it doesn't work most of the time, which is what I suspect is the case, but it probably has paid off at one time or another, which just adds to the benefit for Boras. It's not like there's much at risk here for him.

I always mean what I say, unless I am clearly being sarcastic or joking. You are assuming that my criticism of the FO handling of the Teixeira or the Abreu negotiations is a condemnation of the FO. It is not. People like to see things in black and white. You like to view me as anti-FO. That is far from the truth. While I will criticize them, I have said over and over again that IMO this FO is doing a very good job overall. They do a lot of things very well. However, I don't think they do very well in some negotiations. Maybe they need to bring someone in to join the FO team with a different skill set-- a negotiator. This FO knows its business and they make very sound decisions, but IMO they have had their lunch eaten by the Yankees a couple of times. That's my opinion. That being said, I am serious that I don't think the FO will make decisions based on public opinion. I think Boras is smart enough to know that. I also think that angering the Red Sox brass by lying is not the best way to deal with them, regardless of whether the Sox need a left fielder. I just don't see how stating a known lie would be in Boras' interest. That's why I believe his statement.

[ORS]

The Yankees position in negotiations is very unique. They are the known and acknowleged big spender. They are the last stop for FA shopping his services. Agents get best and final from everyone before they call on the Yankees. Therefore, the Yankees get their guy for always what looks like "just a few million more" than what other teams offered. The likely reality is....they only had to offer a few dollars more for their best and final. This looks like "lunch eating", but the reality is that it's easy to look like you've outmaneuvered the opposition by "just enough" when you always have the benefit of final offer.

 

I'm surprised someone as intelligent as you doesn't recognize this as part of the dynamic.

[a700hitter]

The Yankees position in negotiations is very unique. They are the known and acknowleged big spender. They are the last stop for FA shopping his services. Agents get best and final from everyone before they call on the Yankees. Therefore, the Yankees get their guy for always what looks like "just a few million more" than what other teams offered. The likely reality is....they only had to offer a few year more for their best and final. This looks like "lunch eating", but the reality is that it's easy to look like you've outmaneuvered the opposition by "just enough" when you always have the benefit of final offer.

 

I'm surprised someone as intelligent as you doesn't recognize this as part of the dynamic.

I recognize that, but losing a guy as important as Teixeira to the Yankees for less money as Example has posted, leaves me shaking my head. That shouldn't happen. When you have the opportunity to close the deal before the Yanks enter the picture, you shouldn't walk away without making your final offer, because you will probably not get another chance.

[yankees228]

The Yankees position in negotiations is very unique. They are the known and acknowleged big spender. They are the last stop for FA shopping his services. Agents get best and final from everyone before they call on the Yankees. Therefore, the Yankees get their guy for always what looks like "just a few million more" than what other teams offered. The likely reality is....they only had to offer a few dollars more for their best and final. This looks like "lunch eating", but the reality is that it's easy to look like you've outmaneuvered the opposition by "just enough" when you always have the benefit of final offer.

 

I'm surprised someone as intelligent as you doesn't recognize this as part of the dynamic.

 

And after they go back to the Yankees, they could just as easily go back to the other teams. We really don't know exactly how these negotiations go down, but it's very possible that after they go to the Yankees, they'll check back with the previous club (in some cases, the Red Sox) to allow them to top the offer. They can just keep doing this until someone decides that they're not going to top the other team's latest offer.

[Dipre]

And after they go back to the Yankees' date=' they could just as easily go back to the other teams. We really don't know exactly how these negotiations go down, but it's very possible that after they go to the Yankees, they'll check back with the previous club (in some cases, the Red Sox) to allow them to top the offer. They can just keep doing this until someone decides that they're not going to top the other team's latest offer.[/quote']

 

Who's gonna overbid the Yanks for a Free Agent?

[ORS]

And after they go back to the Yankees' date=' they could just as easily go back to the other teams. We really don't know exactly how these negotiations go down, but it's very possible that after they go to the Yankees, they'll check back with the previous club (in some cases, the Red Sox) to allow them to top the offer. They can just keep doing this until someone decides that they're not going to top the other team's latest offer.[/quote']

You are very naive, or just very uncomfortable thinking about your team as the big bad bullies in baseball, if you think this stuff isn't primarily dependent on what the Yankees want.

[yankees228]

Who's gonna overbid the Yanks for a Free Agent?

 

The Mets did it.

 

My point was that I felt like ORS was saying that Boras wouldn't even go back to the other team. If I misread what he wrote, I apologize.

[Dipre]

The Mets did it.

 

My point was that I felt like ORS was saying that Boras wouldn't even go back to the other team. If I misread what he wrote, I apologize.

 

They didn't do it.

 

The Yankees just didn't want to absolutely break the bank for him.

 

Had they wanted to, they would have blown the Mets out of the water.

 

You know this.

[yankees228]

You are very naive' date=' or just very uncomfortable thinking about your team as the big bad bullies in baseball, if you think this stuff isn't primarily dependent on what the Yankees want.[/quote']

 

I understand the role that the Yankees play. I've admitted that. But I think you're being naive, or just trying to paint the Yankees as bigger bullies than they are, if you think Boras (or whatever agent) isn't going to give the other teams a fair shot.

[yankees228]

They didn't do it.

 

The Yankees just didn't want to absolutely break the bank for him.

 

Had they wanted to, they would have blown the Mets out of the water.

 

You know this.

 

What I'm saying is that, even if the Yankees are interested in a big free agent, they might have their limits. We don't know what the Yankees limit was for Teixeira, but it's possible that they wouldn't have gone over what he signed for.

[Dipre]

What I'm saying is that' date=' even if the Yankees are interested in a big free agent, they might have their limits. We don't know what the Yankees limit was for Teixeira, but it's possible that they wouldn't have gone over what he signed for.[/quote']

 

Limits?

 

I'd like to see them someday.

[yankees228]

Limits?

 

I'd like to see them someday.

 

They didn't show limits with Beltran? As a matter of fact, when they declined to pursue Beltran further, they were in a very similar position as they were this past offseason. They had already made two significant pitching acquisitions.

[ORS]

I understand the role that the Yankees play. I've admitted that. But I think you're being naive' date=' or just trying to paint the Yankees as bigger bullies than they are, if you think Boras (or whatever agent) isn't going to give the other teams a fair shot.[/quote']

Seriously? So if Yankees have the benefit of final offer the first time through the process, you think they don't get it the second time through? Really? Nice try, but regardless of how many times the other team is given the opportunity to counter, negotiations aren't over until the Yankees get a final chance to counter. This is why many teams have quit playing the game and have just gone "best and final" first time through.

[Dipre]

They didn't show limits with Beltran? As a matter of fact' date=' when they declined to pursue Beltran further, they were in a very similar position as they were this past offseason. They had already made two significant pitching acquisitions.[/quote']

 

I don't think they did.

 

It just seems like they really weren't that interested in Beltran.

[yankees228]

Seriously? So if Yankees have the benefit of final offer the first time through the process' date=' you think they don't get it the second time through? Really? Nice try, but regardless of how many times the other team is given the opportunity to counter, negotiations aren't over until the Yankees get a final chance to counter. This is why many teams have quit playing the game and have just gone "best and final" first time through.[/quote']

 

When did I ever say they wouldn't get it a second time? I said it would go back and forth, until someone decided to call it quits. You're telling me things I've already agreed with.

 

Now, as E1 pointed out, money doesn't appear to be the reason that Teixeira chose the Yankees over Boston. Maybe, just maybe, there are other factors at work. The problem is, you're too busy blaming the Yankees for the problems of all the other teams (including the Red Sox).

 

It's pointless for this to go any further, because we're starting to have the same discussion as we did earlier in a different thread. I completely admitted the enormous advantage the Yankees have. How you can claim I'm uncomfortable about something that I've openly admitted is beyond me.

[yankees228]

I don't think they did.

 

It just seems like they really weren't that interested in Beltran.

 

All the talk during the offseason was about how the Yankees were the favorites to land Beltran. He was a fantastic player, and the Yankees had a hole at the position he plays. I have a hard time believing they weren't interested. The prevailing thought, after they didn't get him, is that they had already spent too much money this offseason.

 

Here's the problem with your argument. You're very quick to say the Yankees can't be outbid for anyone, but, when presented with a possible example, you just claim that they weren't interested in that player. That really isn't a fair argument.

[ORS]

I'm not blaming anyone. I'm stating the realities that you are agreeing to, but for some reason when someone else states them, you get butthurt. I suggest preparation H.

[yankees228]

I'm not blaming anyone. I'm stating the realities that you are agreeing to' date=' but for some reason when someone else states them, you get butthurt. I suggest preparation H.[/quote']

 

So you're not blaming the Yankees financial might as the reason why the Red Sox did not get Teixeira, or others like him?

 

And show me where I agreed with something, and then turned around and changed my opinion.

[Dipre]

All the talk during the offseason was about how the Yankees were the favorites to land Beltran. He was a fantastic player, and the Yankees had a hole at the position he plays. I have a hard time believing they weren't interested. The prevailing thought, after they didn't get him, is that they had already spent too much money this offseason.

 

Here's the problem with your argument. You're very quick to say the Yankees can't be outbid for anyone, but, when presented with a possible example, you just claim that they weren't interested in that player. That really isn't a fair argument.

 

Let me ask you again.

 

If the Yankees wanted to blow the Mets out of the water, could they or could they have not done it?

[yankees228]

Let me ask you again.

 

If the Yankees wanted to blow the Mets out of the water, could they or could they have not done it?

 

Obviously. And by the same logic, I'm sure the Red Sox could have made an offer for Teixeira that he would have signed on the spot (which has been talked about in this thread).

 

It's not like these teams don't have the money, they just think it's wise not to spend it.

[a700hitter]

And after they go back to the Yankees' date=' they could just as easily go back to the other teams. We really don't know exactly how these negotiations go down, but it's very possible that after they go to the Yankees, they'll check back with the previous club (in some cases, the Red Sox) to allow them to top the offer. They can just keep doing this until someone decides that they're not going to top the other team's latest offer.[/quote']The Yankees have been doing something very effective in the past several years. As rich as they are, they don't want agents running back and forth shopping their offers and potentially driving up the price. They have been making their best and final offer with the understanding that the player signs or the Yankees walk away. They did it with Damon and Teixeira. In both cases, the Red Sox still had their best offer in the briefcase, and that's where it stayed. Many will argue that it was good to let Damon walk, but that's Monday morning QBing. The Red Sox were blind-sided at the time. The fact that it worked out the way it did and damon can't play CF anymore is irrelevant. BTW, it didn't work out too bad for the Yankees. Damon was an integral piece of the 2009 Championship team.

[yankees228]

The Yankees have been doing something very effective in the past several years. As rich as they are' date=' they don't want agents running back and forth shopping their offers and potentially driving up the price. They have been making their best and final offer with the understanding that the player signs or the Yankees walk away. They did it with Damon and Teixeira. In both cases, the Red Sox still had their best offer in the briefcase, and that's where it stayed. Many will argue that it was good to let Damon walk, but that's Monday morning QBing. The Red Sox were blind-sided at the time. The fact that it worked out the way it did and damon can't play CF anymore is irrelevant. BTW, it didn't work out too bad for the Yankees. Damon was an integral piece of the 2009 Championship team.[/quote']

 

Be careful here a700. You don't want to give the Yankees any credit. All they do is sign checks and win an illegitimate championship.

[Dipre]

Be careful here a700. You don't want to give the Yankees any credit. All they do is sign checks and win an illegitimate championship.

 

Hit the nail right in the head.

[a700hitter]

Be careful here a700. You don't want to give the Yankees any credit. All they do is sign checks and win an illegitimate championship.

:lol:We have to do something to cope with this horrendous circumstance, especially since we have a big hill to climb. I'm not confident that we will be able to land the pieces we need to compete. They are certainly not available on the FA market.

[ORS]

So you're not blaming the Yankees financial might as the reason why the Red Sox did not get Teixeira, or others like him?

 

And show me where I agreed with something, and then turned around and changed my opinion.

No, I'm not blaming, but that is the reality of why players sign with NY. They aren't to blame, as I've said before the system allows it, but that doesn't change the cause/effect relationship of why players go there. Nor does it account for "...all their problems" as you erroneously put it.

 

Here's your problem, you are incapable of dispassionate analysis of your team. Oh yeah, you do a good job avoiding the pom pom waving, but your denial of the obvious implications of what an advantage means in regards to the legitimacy of a true outcome says a lot about your inability to disconnect your heart from your brain. I can't help you there, but that's not my issue. I can tell you this, I do think the Sox victories are not legitimate "true" outcomes because of the advantages they had over the majority of the field. I don't have a problem with this, and I appreciate their victories, but I do so with recognition that something outside the field of play set them up to be in a better position to do so.

[yankees228]

No, I'm not blaming, but that is the reality of why players sign with NY. They aren't to blame, as I've said before the system allows it, but that doesn't change the cause/effect relationship of why players go there. Nor does it account for "...all their problems" as you erroneously put it.

 

Here's your problem, you are incapable of dispassionate analysis of your team. Oh yeah, you do a good job avoiding the pom pom waving, but your denial of the obvious implications of what an advantage means in regards to the legitimacy of a true outcome says a lot about your inability to disconnect your heart from your brain. I can't help you there, but that's not my issue. I can tell you this, I do think the Sox victories are not legitimate "true" outcomes because of the advantages they had over the majority of the field. I don't have a problem with this, and I appreciate their victories, but I do so with recognition that something outside the field of play set them up to be in a better position to do so.

 

I'm not capable of having a dispassionate discussion about my favorite team? That's news to me. You seem very quick to ignore all the times I've agreed with you, and you just focus on the few issues where I disagree. What I find interesting is that I can't disconnect my heart from my brain because I disagree with a few of your points.

 

I recognize that something outside of the field of play has contributed to the Yankees victories. I never denied this. I never denied how much the Yankees financial advantage contributes to their wins. For the most part, I'm right with you. The problem, again, is that I don't think the wins are illegitimate. I can tell you this, when the Red Sox won the 2007 World Series, I found their win to be completely legitimate. It has nothing to do with what team I root for. I just have a different take on things than you do.

[TheKilo]

He wanted to keep getting Leigh-ed

 

Funny

[Gom]

Who's gonna overbid the Yanks for a Free Agent?

The Mets with Beltran.

 

Also, I would say the Red Sox did with Matsuzaka.

 

It's just not easy to do.

 

I really thought that Tex was signed and delivered to Boston until Henry went down there. Remember, Tex was supposedly not in the picture for the Bombers. Cashman had to go back and ask for more money from the Steinbrenners. We had Nady in RF, and Swisher was going to play 1B.

 

No one will really ever know except Boras, Tex, and Henry. I suspect that Henry dropped the ball, mainly for his Twittering ********. I am injecting my own opinion here, but if that's not sour grapes, I'd be surprised. Very surprised. I can't see an owner going after a lost free agent unless he feels he f***ed up and had to validate it.

 

It reminds me of when the Red Sox had a press conference to announce HOW Damon went to the Yankees. Who the f*** does that?

 

Unless someone thinks they royally f***ed up, why on earth do either one? My guess, anyways.

[example1]

The Yankees have been doing something very effective in the past several years. As rich as they are' date=' they don't want agents running back and forth shopping their offers and potentially driving up the price. They have been making their best and final offer with the understanding that the player signs or the Yankees walk away. They did it with Damon and Teixeira. [/quote']

 

I was about to post this exact thought. It's something you can only do when the agent and player know the top offers from other teams and know they aren't leaving too much money sitting out there.

 

In both cases, the Red Sox still had their best offer in the briefcase, and that's where it stayed.

 

I disagree that this is what happened. As far as I read it, the Sox offered him 8 yrs (+ 2 vesting), at an AAV of $21.25m/yr. He would have been the highest paid Red Sox of all time, and the highest paid non-Yankee of all time by total contract value. His total contract would have been the fourth best ever, without the vesting options and he would be the second highest paid player in a single contract with the vesting options, behind two A-Rod contracts and ahead of Jeter. That was their final offer: the highest paid non-Yankee in history.

 

Many will argue that it was good to let Damon walk, but that's Monday morning QBing. The Red Sox were blind-sided at the time. The fact that it worked out the way it did and damon can't play CF anymore is irrelevant.

 

It isn't irrelevant, it is very important. You are judging the individual characters and abilities of the people who are sealing the deal. I'm judging their methodology.

 

Why was Damon in a position to be swiped up by the Yankees? Because the Red Sox determined that the only way the length of his contract would be worth it was if he wasn't paid a whole lot. They set a value and stuck to it and they were right.

 

It's not that they lost the opportunity to overpay for Damon; they were never going to overpay for Damon.