Weclome to Boston, Daniel Bard!

[Dojji]

Yea' date=' cause everytime he came into the game to get a lefty out, he would walk him and then another reliever would come in and clean up his mess thus keeping intact his nifty little ERA.[/quote']

 

This did happen, but not every time. If you're going to resort to hyperbole and rhetoric, then all that does is confirm your utter lack of thought.

 

Ask yourself this, seeing as how his numbers were so good on the surface, why was he never counted as a regular setup man?

 

Firstly because we always had better options. Secondly because he does walk batters, which is a problem -- although not the death knell you make it out to be. Thirdly because he doesn't strike people out, which is considered a prerequisite for late inning work with surprisingly few exceptions.

 

I personally believe Lopez was misused in Boston. Not because he should be a setup man but because he was given the chance to clean up after himself much too infrequently. A guy who gets as many ground balls as Lopez does can usually work around a walk or if his defense is good and he's a bit lucky, even turn it to his advantage with a ground ball double play.

 

Don't even tell me you had supreme confidence in this guy everytime he came into the game.

 

Don't presume to tell me what I think.

 

Honestly? Each of the 3 years he spent in Boston there were relievers like Gagne, Timlin, Hansen, Seanez and Tavarez who scared me far more than Lopez did. I'll take messy and effective over messy and ineffective.

 

It's only this last year where the rest of the bullpen was so loaded and Lopez was so rough out of the gate that I even thought a roster move might be necessary. And frankly, if we weren't so deep and had to stick with Lopez he'd probably bounce back given half a chance.

 

Don't you think you'd expect to have that confidence in the guy considering his ERA? I have a hard time believing this will be JC Romero all over again.

 

You're right -- JC Romero never had as good an ERA for 3 consecutive years as Javier Lopez has for 06-08

[BoSox21]

The majority of the time, Lopez was used in the midst of an inning and you don't think he amount of walks he allows was a death knell? His responsibility was to clean up a mess and far too often he made the mess worse.

 

And enough with the "confirm your utter lack of thought" and "don't presume to tell me what I think" bitch comments, we're having a discussion.

[Dipre]

Which part didn't reflect it? The 1.36 WHIP? The h/9 WELL below 9? The fact that in those 3 years he only gave up seven total homers?

 

I'll be the first to admit he is a stranger to the strike zone but it is very, very hard to square up on Javier Lopez. He got a ton of soft grounders. And the only number that isn't an asset is bb/9. Every other number Lopez put up 2006-2008 is good to very good.,

 

You're conveniently ignoring the fact that he was a LOOGY, Doij, he's a guy that's used to get a guy or two out, then hit the showers.

 

Let me ask you this, and you should answer honestly:

 

How many times did we see this?

 

Red Sox- Yankees: 7th inning, tie game.

 

Lopez gets called on to face Matsui and Cano.

 

Matsui flies out to right.

 

Cano walks.

 

Did he do his job?

 

That is the tying run right there, on a WALK, and a reliever who can't throw strikes is useless, and in Lopez' case, dangerous, why?

 

I mean he got one out, but he left the winning run ON BASE, that's not what a LOOGY's supposed to do, he can give up the hit, but walks are totally unacceptable, and that was exactly the Lopez special.

 

I seriously hope you're joking by trying to use ERA + to try to measure a one or two hitter reliever, because you're doing it wrong.

 

Javier Lopez sucks monkey tits, he sucked in '07, he sucked in '08, and he sucks now.

[TheKilo]

Meh, Lopez was a pretty effective reliever in 2007 even though he had a reverse split, but he was truly awful this season and I am of the opinion Bard is the better option anyway.

 

Masterson goes back to the pen when DiceK is activated, Jones gets demoted - and it really is the best pen the Sox can have, IMO.

[Dojji]

Alright, at this point I'm trying to combat anecdotes and emotions with numbers and that's a losing proposition. Lopez will have officially "sucked" no matter what the numbers look like because you guys will find some excuse to believe the numbers don't mean what they say.

[Dipre]

Alright' date=' at this point I'm trying to combat anecdotes and emotions with numbers and that's a losing proposition. Lopez will have officially "sucked" no matter what the numbers look like because you guys will find some excuse to believe the numbers don't mean what they say.[/quote']

 

But the problem is, the "numbers" don't back you up.

 

ERA or ERA + are the worst tools you can use to measure Lopez' performance.

 

Find.Something.Else.

[TheKilo]

But the problem is, the "numbers" don't back you up.

 

ERA or ERA + are the worst tools you can use to measure Lopez' performance.

 

Find.Something.Else.

 

He did...

 

Which part didn't reflect it? The 1.36 WHIP? The h/9 WELL below 9? The fact that in those 3 years he only gave up seven total homers?

 

I'll be the first to admit he is a stranger to the strike zone but it is very, very hard to square up on Javier Lopez. He got a ton of soft grounders. And the only number that isn't an asset is bb/9. Every other number Lopez put up 2006-2008 is good to very good.,

[Dipre]

He did...

 

I didn't explain myself very well.

 

I meant find stats that can reflect the effectiveness of a LOOGY.

 

That's why they're usually analized at face value, and at face value, Lopez sucked.

[TheKilo]

Well, a H/9 well below 9 and only giving up 7 dongs in three years is pretty good.

 

He had a reverse split and wasn't the most effective at getting lefties out all the time - but looking at his numbers at face value gives you a pretty effective reliever.

 

He was the last guy out of the pen this season and the emergence of Bard made him expendable. It's the right move to make but doesn't necessarily mean Lopez "sucked" during his entire tenure here.

 

On the contrary - I think he was pretty effective during his time here.

[Dojji]

I meant find stats that can reflect the effectiveness of a LOOGY.

 

I neither believe in one-batter relievers nor think that Lopez should have been used as one.

 

He did hold lefties to a .587 OPS last year but that was in a direct contradiction to his normal career trends in which he was far more effective against righthanders (.688 OPS against while facing righthanded hitting)

 

In short, it doesn't matter how Lopez fared as a LOOGY because LOOGY should never have been his role.

[italstallianion]

Lopez by ERA+ by year.

 

2006: 173

2007: 153

2008: 190

 

I don't give a flying twinkie how he looked. Prior to this year he was getting results. It's a shame he can't seem to get that back this year but I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that some team will be glad to take him off our hands.

 

 

 

Thank you Dojji! God, I thought I was the only one who recognised that Lopez was good before this past year.

[Dojji]

Lopez is always in danger of being underestimated because officially he's a "soft-tosser who walks people." Even worse, he doesn't have a lot of sexy strikeouts to show for it either. Very, very easy to view that kind of pitcher with suspicion and head for the bomb shelter when they take the mound.

 

It doesn't matter that he has an average WHIP rather than a bad one, or has been all but impossible to drive the ball against. Heck, it doesn't even matter that he changed his arm angle and started clearing the low 90's on occasion, he's still "a soft-tosser who walks people." And thus by definition sucks no matter what and any success he actually may have had must be luck. Must be...

 

Gotta love preconcieved notions of ballplayers doncha? The Church of the Sacred High 90's Fastball is always amusing as well.

[Dipre]

I neither believe in one-batter relievers nor think that Lopez should have been used as one.

 

He did hold lefties to a .587 OPS last year but that was in a direct contradiction to his normal career trends in which he was far more effective against righthanders (.688 OPS against while facing righthanded hitting)

 

In short, it doesn't matter how Lopez fared as a LOOGY because LOOGY should never have been his role.

 

Looking at it that way, i suppose you do have a point.

 

Hat's off to you.

[Dipre]

Lopez is always in danger of being underestimated because officially he's a "soft-tosser who walks people." Even worse, he doesn't have a lot of sexy strikeouts to show for it either. Very, very easy to view that kind of pitcher with suspicion and head for the bomb shelter when they take the mound.

 

It doesn't matter that he has an average WHIP rather than a bad one, or has been all but impossible to drive the ball against. Heck, it doesn't even matter that he changed his arm angle and started clearing the low 90's on occasion, he's still "a soft-tosser who walks people." And thus by definition sucks no matter what and any success he actually may have had must be luck. Must be...

 

Gotta love preconcieved notions of ballplayers doncha? The Church of the Sacred High 90's Fastball is always amusing as well.

 

You did perfectly in the post before this one, so why go ahead and deliver this bastion of fail of a post?

[Dojji]

Sorry, talking down to the quality of most of the posts I'm dealing with.

 

I mean, you asked some legitimate questions and made me actually dig a bit to defend my point but most of what I was responding to was basically "Lopez sucks because he just does."

[BoSox21]

you are quite the arrogant piece of s***, I must say

[Dipre]

^ Served.

 

You had it coming, i hate to say.

[Dojji]

Prolly did.

[RedSoxRooter]

Ehh, for what he was, I didn't mind him. He was better than Scott Sauerbeck...

[Lil D-Ped]

You should note that Javy was demoted because he was supposed to be a lefty specialist but he failed to get lefties out. Lefties were .429 against him and the rest of the bullpen against lefties were:

 

Hideki Okajima: .077 (2 for 26)

Ramon Ramirez: .143 (5 for 35)

Jonathan Papelbon: .167 (5 for 30)

Manny Delcarmen: .200 (7 for 35)

Hunter Jones: .200 (3 for 15)

Takashi Saito: .222 (6 for 27)

 

So we don't necesarilly need Javy on the roster and the management was thinking that it would be a good idea to see how Bard does in the majors

[Dojji]

I will never quite understand why Theo and Tito thought that Lopez was a lefty specialist.

 

There's a reason he's always been more effective against righthanders. A lefty siderarmer with a fastball-slider combo has to control the inside part of the zone to be effective against lefthanders and Lopez can't do that consistently. Without an effective inside pitch to lefties, the primary advantage of lefty on lefty is gone because it's pretty easy to follow that sweeping slider disappearing out of the zone away, especially when he usually misses pretty badly with it, and then sit on the fastball. Meanwhile with the same arsenal Lopez can saw overeager righthanders off with a slider in under the hands and then get them to chase two-seamers that disappear out of the strike zone away.

[Dipre]

I will never quite understand why Theo and Tito thought that Lopez was a lefty specialist.

 

There's a reason When he misses in the zone to lefties it tends to be over the outside half and any half-decent opposite field hitter is going to drive it to the wall, and he doesn't control the inside of the plate to lefthanders well, but his slider and fastball are both very effective at jamming righthanders, especially at Fenway when they're looking to pull everything.

 

Yea you're just about to take a left turn to dumbass avenue.

 

Are you seriously suggesting that the proper use of Lopez was exposing him more to righthanded batters?

 

Are you serious?

[Dojji]

That's exactly what I'm suggesting.

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?n1=lopezja02&year=Career&t=p

 

About the same number of career PA's vs. RHH and vs. LHH (which is surprising), and what stands out is that Righties don't have NEAR the SLG against as lefties. If anything the question should have been how many lefties you expose Lopez to.

[Dipre]

He had a career OPS over .800 against righties and under .700 against lefties........

[TedWilliams101]

Yeah dude, unless I'm looking at the wrong stats, the lines look the opposite of what you're arguing:

 

RHH: 526PA 10HR 54BB 52K 0.96K/BB .295BA .381OBP .440SLG .821OPS

LHH: 524PA 6HR 59BB 100K 1.69K/BB .247BA .338OBP .350SLG .688OPS

[Dojji]

*checks again*

 

Wow.. oh boy. I really put my foot in it this time.

 

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn234/tsomj/Demotivator__Epic_Fail.jpg

[Dipre]

*checks again*

 

Wow.. oh boy. I really put my foot in it this time.

 

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn234/tsomj/Demotivator__Epic_Fail.jpg

 

Saving Face Win.

 

Well played, self-ridicule before the incoming storm of insults because of your mountain of FAIL.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Yea you're just about to take a left turn to dumbass avenue.

 

Are you seriously suggesting that the proper use of Lopez was exposing him more to righthanded batters?

 

Are you serious?

The proper use of Lopez is as the team's personal pizza delivery boy.

[Dipre]

The proper use of Lopez is as the team's personal pizza delivery boy.

 

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.

 

Holy s***, i almost puked my juice, good one, J_E!

[TheKilo]

Napoli was impressed:

 

Mike Napoli, Bard’s first victim, said he checked the charts before the game and saw the rookie threw 94-98, but that didn’t prepare him for what he saw at the plate.

 

“In warmups he was kind of just easygoing,” Napoli said. “Then I got in there and it was by me.”

 

Napoli was more than impressed.

 

“He kind of blew my doors off a little there,” Napoli said. “He’s got easy cheese. He brings it up there pretty good, pretty firm. From what I saw - or didn’t see - he has pretty good stuff.”