Breaking News: Manny Suspended 50 Games for PEDs

[rician blast]

You can't accept the fact that your championships are tainted by the ugly spectre of steroids.

 

How are they tainted? If the opponent's players are using too, isn't it a level playing field?

[Gom]

So, how are those of us who are in the same position--skeptical of just about everyone, pretty confident in some certain players, and still fans of our hometown team--being hypocritical if we celebrate our team winning and your team losing?

 

I'm pretty confident that guys like Mueller and Dave Roberts didn't use. I can't be sure, but I'm pretty confident. At the same time, I acknowledge fully that it isn't a coincidence that the 2003 and 2004 teams had some of the highest SLG in history. That said, they still beat the Yankees, who were also enhancing their performance--as were the Royals, White Sox, Blue Jays, Marlins, Giants, Cubs, etc.,

 

I said most of you guys, example1..and you know I wouldn't include you in it. You're not hypocritical if you celebrate your team winning and your rivals losing.

 

However, there are a lot of people here who loved it when Arod was caught. Remember..he was caught with Texas...not in NY. It didn't matter [and I'm not naive to think that he wasn't in NY]. It's just desserts.

[rician blast]

I would be surprised if Rivera and Bernie ever juiced. Rivera' date=' mostly because he works short innings, has pristine mechanices, has a big frame and works off one pitch. [/quote']

 

This is naive, blind faith or very hopeful.

[example1]

I would be surprised if Rivera and Bernie ever juiced. Rivera' date=' mostly because he works short innings, has pristine mechanices, has a big frame and works off one pitch. I think that helped his longevity more than anything. Bernie mostly because he got fatter and started to suck at around 32, 33.[/quote']

 

That's the problem though, right? I mean, Rivera either happens to be the best closer in the history of the game at a time when more players were juicing, or he was keeping up with the competitive advantage. The more players that come under fire, the more likely I am to just suspect everyone.

 

Over the past two days I've convinced myself that Pedro was juicing. I have no proof, just strong suspicions.

 

Bernie I just don't know. I suspect he did, but why wouldn't he have juiced a lot when he started to decline?

 

Here's how I see it: the Yankees can take some pride that a core of their championship teams appears to not have been juicing: Rivera, Jeter, Bernie. The Sox can take some pride that a core of their championships (and especially their current team) appear to not juice. I would be pretty surprised if Youkilis, Pedroia, Ellsbury, Lester, Beckett or Dice-K were juicing. Papelbon, Ortiz, Manny... I can't speak for them. Papelbon is on something, he's a nutcase!

[TedWilliams101]

I said most of you guys, example1..and you know I wouldn't include you in it. You're not hypocritical if you celebrate your team winning and your rivals losing.

 

However, there are a lot of people here who loved it when Arod was caught. Remember..he was caught with Texas...not in NY. It didn't matter [and I'm not naive to think that he wasn't in NY]. It's just desserts.

 

I think that had more to do with the fact that he is our hated (though respected) rival that just got ousted. I'm sure most people weren't ignorant to believe that the Red Sox were clean and the Yankees were all juicers, we were just reveling in the fact that another big Yankee was caught taking roids.

[BoSox21]

Remember..he was caught with Texas...not in NY. It didn't matter [and I'm not naive to think that he wasn't in NY]. It's just desserts.

 

The Selena Roberts book says he juiced with the Yankees in '04

[example1]

I said most of you guys, example1..and you know I wouldn't include you in it. You're not hypocritical if you celebrate your team winning and your rivals losing.

 

However, there are a lot of people here who loved it when Arod was caught. Remember..he was caught with Texas...not in NY. It didn't matter [and I'm not naive to think that he wasn't in NY]. It's just desserts.

 

I loved it when he was caught, but mostly because it became a huge firestorm for the Yankees, an embarassment for a big-headed, holier than thou franchise, and a reflection that the Yankees huge spending (and their fans' drooling over it) is ill advised.

 

I want Sox fans to realize that spending the most money for the biggest name isn't always the best way to go, and I think when the Yankees trip and fall on their face by doing it, Sox fans get a really nice perspective on why our FO is better.

 

Remember, the Sox picked Ortiz up for nothing. They traded Nomar for 3 guys who most likely didn't use. They tried to release Manny and tried to trade him year after year. THey didn't re-sign Pedro, or Damon. From what I can see they like having home grown (i.e., substance contolled) players and they don't like having steroids on their team if possible. It is sometimes inevitable, and given how much money they spend players will often hide their usage. I'm not saying that they are pristine, but I actually have faith that they see the negative side of their players being implicated in steroid controversy and would avoid players who have those concerns.

 

That said, I think Mark Teixeira looks like he uses and the Sox made hard runs at him, and A-Rod, and Clemens. Again, no team is pristine.

[Gom]

He juiced in 2007. There is little doubt about that. When Ortiz realized he was about to be released, he starting juicing. He only stopped when he realized if he got caught, that would be it for him and his legacy in Boston.

 

I didn't know what I was taking...the funny thing is that some people believe that line. What a crock of s***.

[rhet]

However' date=' there are a lot of people here who loved it when Arod was caught. Remember..he was caught with Texas...not in NY. [/quote']

 

And Manny was caught with the Dodgers... not with the Red Sox.

[Cocos Disciples]

And Manny was caught with the Dodgers... not with the Red Sox.

 

He used in Boston just as much as A-Rod used in New York.

[rhet]

Some of what we are discussing is fact, and a lot is just speculation.

 

Manny's declining numbers in Boston the last three years aren't evidence of PEDs.

[rician blast]

ROFLMAO!!!!

 

Jeter's home run total? Holy s***, that was funny.

 

 

For the record, I suspect Jeter used, likely somewhere around 1999-2004. Seems to me he put on a little bit of mass (legs mainly) and has since trimmed down again. Could be wrong, just a hunch based on a subtle change in physique and what I believe goes on in the heads of baseball's top players.

 

As for HR numbers?

 

1996 10

1997 10

1998 18

1999 24

2000 15

2001 21

2002 18

2003 10 (only 119 games)

2004 23

2005 19

2006 14

2007 12

2008 11 (34 yrs old)

 

Tough to conclude anything...did he spike in 1998-2004 because of experience and a maturing body? Could be. Did he tail off in 2006-2008 because he's old? Not likely, he was only 34 in 2008.

 

Not everyone gets the same results from using, not all users use for the same reason and not all PEDs have the same effect...so looking at power numbers won't tell the whole story in every case.

 

He may never have touched a PED..or he may have used in those years where he had respectable HR numbers...or he may have used studd his entire career. We just don't know...but I'm not naive enough to say "he didn't do it" or "LOL" at the comment regarding hsi HR numbers, because just about every guy that's tested positive, been named in investigations or simply been under great scrutiny based on various evidence are guys I had on my list.

[Gom]

That's it. Jeter juiced. Look at his homerun totals. He broke 20 three times.

 

Clueless....

[ORS]

Ortiz hit 20 in Minnesota, 40 with the Sox. That's, wait for it, 100% more.

 

Now look at Jeter's baseline outside the window Rician highlighted. Inside the window it's, wait for it, about 100% more. Funny how that works, right?

 

Apply your standard of proof equally, and he's guilty. You painted yourself in a corner.

[ORS]

Now Simmons writes mouth breathing drivel?

 

So basically, anyone who disagrees with you, whether it be me, or anyone else here, or respected writers in the media, are idiots? We're all idiots, and you're God's gift to baseball knowledge?

 

Is that how it works? Please take your meds in a timely fashion, old man.

Gom, stupid is stupid. I don't care what someone does for their career, if they write/say something stupid, it's fair game. You are free to disagree, but you seem to lack the capacity of understanding that the title of a person espousing an idea doesn't make the person right.

 

For the record, I think Simmons sucks. Any writer that makes points about sports by relating them to 80's sitcoms blows goats, IMO. There is one area where he does have some chops, but I don't care about it. He's pretty good when he's breaking down basketball. For all other sports, I tune him out.

 

I accepted a long time ago that every single one of the Sox championship teams could have been using. Simmons isn't stupid for thinking the same thing. It's how he gets there and the conclusion he makes. He assumes the 2004 team all used, which is fine, but he does so by stating that his assumption is based on them having good years. Guess what so did a shitload of other players on other teams that year. This is at odds with his reason for writing the article, coming to grips with a tainted championship. The failure of logic there is pretty clear. If the standard of evidence is that a good year constitutes using, then you have a lot of players using on a lot of teams, and every playoff team must be chock full of users. Hindsight is revealing this to be the case. However, if it's pervaisive, there's no taint, other than the original opinion.

[TheKilo]

Rivera having a career year is more due to....drum roll please....Molina behind the plate more than anything else. Also...relievers have a lot of luck in their ERAs.

 

LOL FRAMING PITCHES!!!!!!!!!!

 

Hey Gom - Sox won two tainted world titles. And it still feels f***ing awesome.

 

Your team of roided freaks missed the playoffs this past season and are fighting to stay out of the cellar this weekend.

 

$200 million steroid bank that can't do s*** for a decade - how pathetic.

[ARod2212]

Ortiz hit 20 in Minnesota, 40 with the Sox. That's, wait for it, 100% more.

 

Now look at Jeter's baseline outside the window Rician highlighted. Inside the window it's, wait for it, about 100% more. Funny how that works, right?

 

Apply your standard of proof equally, and he's guilty. You painted yourself in a corner.

And if a player went from 5 to 10 homeruns that's a 100% increase too.

 

And if a player went from 40 to 80 homeruns, that's a 100% increase!

 

You get that as the numbers go up the more ridiculous you sound, right? A jump from 10 to 20 homers is not nearly as unusual as a jump from 20 to 40.

 

Just as a jump from 5 to 10 homers isn't as unusual as a jump from 40 to 80. Hell, Bonds only increased 50% from 49 to 73.

[ARod2212]

LOL FRAMING PITCHES!!!!!!!!!!

 

Hey Gom - Sox won two tainted world titles. And it still feels f***ing awesome.

 

Your team of roided freaks missed the playoffs this past season and are fighting to stay out of the cellar this weekend.

 

$200 million steroid bank that can't do s*** for a decade - how pathetic.

I've been to 4 Yankee parades in Manhattan, I'm content with my team's history.

[BoSox21]

I've been to 4 Yankee parades in Manhattan' date=' I'm content with my team's history.[/quote']

 

4 tainted parades. the air was thick with taint at each parade as they went down the tainted street in their tainted floats made out of tainted wood.

[ORS]

And if a player went from 5 to 10 homeruns that's a 100% increase too.

 

And if a player went from 40 to 80 homeruns, that's a 100% increase!

 

You get that as the numbers go up the more ridiculous you sound, right? A jump from 10 to 20 homers is not nearly as unusual as a jump from 20 to 40.

 

Just as a jump from 5 to 10 homers isn't as unusual as a jump from 40 to 80. Hell, Bonds only increased 50% from 49 to 73.

You can't apply the simple concept either. Not surprising.

 

Comparing two players on raw numbers is folly, that is unless they are very comparable in physical size, strength, and talent. If they aren't, you need to look at baseline and make increases relative to the baseline talent.

 

Gom's conclusion was that 20 HR is such a low number that it should be beyond suspicion. This is stupid. If you agree with him, you are stupid. Derek Jeter unassisted by PEDs does not have the same baseline power as David Ortiz unassistend by PEDs.

 

I'm not saying either used, but if the standard is increased power, as Gom suggests, both are equally guilty.

[ARod2212]

4 tainted parades. the air was thick with taint at each parade as they went down the tainted street in their tainted floats made out of tainted wood.

Actually it was fun. Some chicks showed their boobs.

[ORS]

Tainted boobs.

[ARod2212]

You can't apply the simple concept either. Not surprising.

 

Comparing two players on raw numbers is folly, that is unless they are very comparable in physical size, strength, and talent. If they aren't, you need to look at baseline and make increases relative to the baseline talent.

 

Gom's conclusion was that 20 HR is such a low number that it should be beyond suspicion. This is stupid. If you agree with him, you are stupid. Derek Jeter unassisted by PEDs does not have the same baseline power as David Ortiz unassistend by PEDs.

 

I'm not saying either used, but if the standard is increased power, as Gom suggests, both are equally guilty.

 

I wasn't reading the whole conversation, so I understand what you're getting at with different body types.

 

If I took enough steroids to hit 6 homeruns in the major leagues, nobody may think anything of it, but I definitely cheated to get there.

 

 

I just saw a raw number comparison and thought it was pointless.

[TheKilo]

I've been to 4 Yankee parades in Manhattan' date=' I'm content with my team's history.[/quote']

 

COUNT THE RINGZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

[Cocos Disciples]

http://nyystadiuminsider.com/uploaded_images/yankee_fan-739206.jpg

[example1]

He juiced in 2007. There is little doubt about that.

 

There is plenty of doubt about it. There is plenty of reason to suspect it too, but at least get your catch phrases right. If there is little doubt about something then it is conventional wisdom. There is little doubt that Michael Jordan was the best basketball player ever, or that Evander Holifield had Mike Tyson's number.

 

There exists plenty of doubt that Ortiz juiced at any particular time, as there is no actual proof that he did. You can speculate all you want, but the proof hasn't been revealed... it wouldn't take much.

 

Again, I wouldn't be shocked if he did, but get your phrasing right if you want to be precise or clearly understood.

 

 

Personally, I'm ready to start by writing off anyone who hit more than 50 HRs since 1980. Here's that list (multiple winners listed only once):

 

Greg Vaughn

Sammy Sosa

Prince Fielder

Albert Belle

Brady Anderson

Andruw Jones

Cecil Fielder

Jim Thome

Alex Rodriguez

Mark McGwire

David Ortiz

Ken Griffey Jr

Luis Gonzalez

Ryan Howard

Barry Bonds

 

That's the list. Not a name on there that I trust enough to stick my neck out and say they were clean.

 

Furthermore, let's look at the list of teams who have won since 1995. I bet I could list a few players from each team who could be suspected of concurrent or future PED use and who would, in Gom's thinking, taint the WS victory:

 

1995: Atlanta Braves (Ryan Klesko, Javy Lopez, David Justice, Chipper Jones)

 

1996: New York Yankees (Tino Martinez, Paul O'Neill, Ruben Sierra, Jim Leyritz, Straw, Cecil Fielder, Jorge Posada, Pettitte, Kenny Rogers, Steve Howe, John Wetteland, Mariano Rivera)

 

1997: Florida Marlins (Charles Johnson, Bobby Bonilla, Moises Alou, Gary Sheffield, Kevin Brown)

 

1998: New York Yankees (Posada, Tino Martinez, Chuck Knoblauch, Paul O'Neill, Strawberry, Pettitte, Stanton/Nelson, Rivera, Borowski)

 

1999: New York Yankees (Posada, Martinez, Knoblauch, O'Neill, Strawberry, Pettitte, Clemens, Stanton/Nelson, Rivera)

 

2000: New York Yankees (Posada, Martinez, Knoblauch, O'Neill, Justice, Jose Canseco, Glenallen Hill (?), Pettitte, Clemens, Gooden (?), Nelson/Stanton

 

2001: Arizona Diamondbacks (Matt Williams, Luis Gonzalez, Reggie Sanders)

 

2002: Anaheim Angels (Glaus, Salmon, Garret Anderson (?), Percival, Ben Weber, Brendan Donnelly)

 

2003: Florida Marlins (Ivan Rodriguez, Ugueth Urbina)

 

2004: Boston Red Sox (Varitek, Millar, Manny, Damon, Kapler, Ortiz, Nomar, Nixon, Pedro, Lowe, Timlin, Foulke)

 

2005: Chicago White Sox (Paul Konerko, Pierzynski, Carl Everett, Frank Thomas)

 

2006: St. Louis Cardinals (Albert Pujols, Jim Edmonds, Scott Rolen)

 

2007: Boston Red Sox (Varitek, Manny, JD Drew, David Ortiz, Julio Lugo, Eric Hinske, Julian Tavarez, Mike Timlin, Brendan Donnelly, JC Romero, Eric Gagne)

 

2008: Philadelphia Phillies--a bit harder-- (Ryan Howard, Brett Myers, JC Romero)

 

================

 

It is complete speculation, but I see no reason to think the above list shouldn't be suspected of PED use. Guys like Donnelly make the list because they just look and act the part, same with Brett Myers, Ugueth Urbina, Carl Everett, etc.,.

 

If we can agree that there probably wasn't a single WS team in the past 14 years that has won without a PED user contributing in some way, then we are back where we started: namely, with the Red Sox still having 2 WS victories this decade, the Yankees having missed the playoffs last year, and the Yankees still having a record for having paid PED users more than any other team has, and it isn't close (between A-Rod, Clemens, Giamboid, etc.,).

 

Again, all are tainted, but that doesn't make the Sox success any less real.

[rician blast]

Example, I'm with you. Your list captures a high percentage of those I've always suspected.

[rician blast]

That's it. Jeter juiced. Look at his homerun totals. He broke 20 three times.

 

(I'm GOM and I am) Clueless....

 

Jeez, by your logic if a player hits 3 HRs a year for 10 yrs, then juices and hits 15 for the next 5 years, he's not to be suspected because he didn't hit 20?

 

I'm guessing you're just being a dick with the post above, because somehow I can't imagine you're so ignorant that you don't understand the concept of a spike in performance...meanwhile you conveniently ignore the rest of the post which not only qualified my suspicions but also further supported them based upon criteria that goes beyond the rise and fall of Jeter's numbers.

 

By the way, fixed your post for you.

[Dipre]

There is plenty of doubt about it. There is plenty of reason to suspect it too, but at least get your catch phrases right. If there is little doubt about something then it is conventional wisdom. There is little doubt that Michael Jordan was the best basketball player ever, or that Evander Holifield had Mike Tyson's number.

 

There exists plenty of doubt that Ortiz juiced at any particular time, as there is no actual proof that he did. You can speculate all you want, but the proof hasn't been revealed... it wouldn't take much.

 

Again, I wouldn't be shocked if he did, but get your phrasing right if you want to be precise or clearly understood.

 

 

Personally, I'm ready to start by writing off anyone who hit more than 50 HRs since 1980. Here's that list (multiple winners listed only once):

 

Greg Vaughn

Sammy Sosa

Prince Fielder

Albert Belle

Brady Anderson

Andruw Jones

Cecil Fielder

Jim Thome

Alex Rodriguez

Mark McGwire

David Ortiz

Ken Griffey Jr

Luis Gonzalez

Ryan Howard

Barry Bonds

 

That's the list. Not a name on there that I trust enough to stick my neck out and say they were clean.

 

Furthermore, let's look at the list of teams who have won since 1995. I bet I could list a few players from each team who could be suspected of concurrent or future PED use and who would, in Gom's thinking, taint the WS victory:

 

1995: Atlanta Braves (Ryan Klesko, Javy Lopez, David Justice, Chipper Jones)

 

1996: New York Yankees (Tino Martinez, Paul O'Neill, Ruben Sierra, Jim Leyritz, Straw, Cecil Fielder, Jorge Posada, Pettitte, Kenny Rogers, Steve Howe, John Wetteland, Mariano Rivera)

 

1997: Florida Marlins (Charles Johnson, Bobby Bonilla, Moises Alou, Gary Sheffield, Kevin Brown)

 

1998: New York Yankees (Posada, Tino Martinez, Chuck Knoblauch, Paul O'Neill, Strawberry, Pettitte, Stanton/Nelson, Rivera, Borowski)

 

1999: New York Yankees (Posada, Martinez, Knoblauch, O'Neill, Strawberry, Pettitte, Clemens, Stanton/Nelson, Rivera)

 

2000: New York Yankees (Posada, Martinez, Knoblauch, O'Neill, Justice, Jose Canseco, Glenallen Hill (?), Pettitte, Clemens, Gooden (?), Nelson/Stanton

 

2001: Arizona Diamondbacks (Matt Williams, Luis Gonzalez, Reggie Sanders)

 

2002: Anaheim Angels (Glaus, Salmon, Garret Anderson (?), Percival, Ben Weber, Brendan Donnelly)

 

2003: Florida Marlins (Ivan Rodriguez, Ugueth Urbina)

 

2004: Boston Red Sox (Varitek, Millar, Manny, Damon, Kapler, Ortiz, Nomar, Nixon, Pedro, Lowe, Timlin, Foulke)

 

2005: Chicago White Sox (Paul Konerko, Pierzynski, Carl Everett, Frank Thomas)

 

2006: St. Louis Cardinals (Albert Pujols, Jim Edmonds, Scott Rolen)

 

2007: Boston Red Sox (Varitek, Manny, JD Drew, David Ortiz, Julio Lugo, Eric Hinske, Julian Tavarez, Mike Timlin, Brendan Donnelly, JC Romero, Eric Gagne)

 

2008: Philadelphia Phillies--a bit harder-- (Ryan Howard, Brett Myers, JC Romero)

 

================

 

It is complete speculation, but I see no reason to think the above list shouldn't be suspected of PED use. Guys like Donnelly make the list because they just look and act the part, same with Brett Myers, Ugueth Urbina, Carl Everett, etc.,.

 

If we can agree that there probably wasn't a single WS team in the past 14 years that has won without a PED user contributing in some way, then we are back where we started: namely, with the Red Sox still having 2 WS victories this decade, the Yankees having missed the playoffs last year, and the Yankees still having a record for having paid PED users more than any other team has, and it isn't close (between A-Rod, Clemens, Giamboid, etc.,).

 

Again, all are tainted, but that doesn't make the Sox success any less real.

 

That's a really well constructed post.

 

However, i couldn't help but LOL when i saw you write JD Glass in your list of *possible* users.

[Lil D-Ped]

Actually it was fun. Some chicks showed their boobs.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if that was probably the only time that has ever happened to you, you seem so excited