The Subtext of Jeff Kent's Retirement Announcement

[Keeper]

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=3853055

 

"...Treated this game with the utmost respect, honored this game and its past heroes."

 

"...Integrity that I've had in this game is something that I'm very, very proud of."

 

I read this as him saying he never juiced. Thoughts?

[26 to 6]

I think he probably used some sort of performance enhancing substance at some point during his career. Of course I have no evidence to support that, unlike with my Biggio claim , but I just have that feeling, like we do with some. I could also very well be wrong, and I hope I am. But Kent was never a guy I was a fan of, he just rubbed me the wrong way. He's a borderline HOF player, he's had a good to great carrer, not disappinted to see him go though.

[Dipre]

I think he probably used some sort of performance enhancing substance at some point during his career. Of course I have no evidence to support that' date=' unlike with my Biggio claim , but I just have that feeling, like we do with some. I could also very well be wrong, and I hope I am. But Kent was never a guy I was a fan of, he just rubbed me the wrong way[b'] because he was a world-class A-hole[/b]. He's a borderline HOF player, he's had a good to great career, not disappointed to see him go though.

 

Went ahead and fixed that for ya.

[Keeper]

You've got the goods on Biggio? For real? I always liked him...

[BSN07]

Kent is an ass. I can't believe anyone thinks he is a HOF. Ya he hit alot of HR, but that's not what's important at 2B. His glove was mediocore at best, and he was a clubhouse downer.

 

IMO, He juiced, his best HR stretch came in pinnacle of the "steroid era". And after he left Barry, he was a marginal player(although age can be taken into consideration as well).

[italstallianion]

I'd consider voting him for the HOF, but he's so much of a jerk that I have no sympathy if he never gets in. Let's just say that if I'm a pitcher, and I had to choose to throw at A-rod or Kent, I'd have to call a timeout to decide which one to peg.

 

Seeing how much I hate A-rod shows how much of a jerk Kent really is. He's an awful human being.

[ORS]

Kent is an ass. I can't believe anyone thinks he is a HOF. Ya he hit alot of HR' date=' [b']but that's not what's important at 2B[/b]. His glove was mediocore at best, and he was a clubhouse downer.

 

IMO, He juiced, his best HR stretch came in pinnacle of the "steroid era". And after he left Barry, he was a marginal player(although age can be taken into consideration as well).

What in the hell does this mean? HRs are important, period. No matter what position you play. What you appear to be saying is that is not "expected" from 2B, but that only makes your point worse because it highlights how special it is to get power production from unexpected places. There are 17 2B in the HOF, Kent has 76 more HR than the highest total on the list (301 for Rogers Hornsby). He's average in the field through his prime.

 

He may have been a douchebag, but there's little point to having a HOF if players like Jeff Kent are excluded.

[italstallianion]

Plus, steroids hasn't been as much of an issue to Kent as compared to other more recent potential HOF'ers. I'm not saying that Kent did/didn't take steroids, I have no clue so I won't guess or argue either case, but the fact is that Kent's numbers don't have the same question marks that others do.

 

Besides, character was never a determination or a requirement for the HOF. Kent isn't the first and won't be the last jacka** with HOF consideration. A-rod is a shoe-in and Bonds looks to be as well and they are nearly equally the same amount of jerks.

 

(I apologize but the last sentence was really difficult to make grammatically correct, as even a blind English major would stutter at that one).

[BoSox21]

Kinda lame to say you think he juiced just cause he was an *******

[italstallianion]

To whom are you referring?

[TheKilo]

Kent is an ass. I can't believe anyone thinks he is a HOF. Ya he hit alot of HR, but that's not what's important at 2B. His glove was mediocore at best, and he was a clubhouse downer.

 

IMO, He juiced, his best HR stretch came in pinnacle of the "steroid era". And after he left Barry, he was a marginal player(although age can be taken into consideration as well).

 

lol

 

Look at the other 2B in the HOF, look at Kent, and tell me he doesn't get in.

 

lol

[HeadOfSoxNation]

lol

 

Look at the other 2B in the HOF, look at Kent, and tell me he doesn't get in.

 

lol

 

I was waiting for someone to call them on this...

 

Kent's the best hitting second baseman of ALL TIME. Guy is finishing his career with more RBIs than Mickey Mantle. He's a first ballot guy.

[jacksonianmarch]

Kent is a first or second ballot HOFer. He wasnt a very good 2b, but his resistence in moving off the position will gain him entrance into the HOF. As a 1b or a 3b he'd have a little bit of a harder time getting in because those are expected to be power positions. But being the career leader in homers as a 2b while being an offensive beast for over a decade is something to be hall worthy. He's in.

[ORS]

He gets in, but he not the best hitting 2B of all time. That would be Rogers Hornsby.

 

.358/.434/.577

 

Forget second base, here's where those rank all-time among all qualified players...

 

#2/#8/#12

[BSN07]

What in the hell does this mean? HRs are important, period. No matter what position you play. What you appear to be saying is that is not "expected" from 2B, but that only makes your point worse because it highlights how special it is to get power production from unexpected places. There are 17 2B in the HOF, Kent has 76 more HR than the highest total on the list (301 for Rogers Hornsby). He's average in the field through his prime.

 

He may have been a douchebag, but there's little point to having a HOF if players like Jeff Kent are excluded.

 

Say it out loud, "Jeff Kent is the all time leader in HR at 2B". It's like saying he's the skinniest kid at fat camp. There's more to being a HOF then offensive #'s.

 

Rod Carew, Rogers Hornsby,Joe Morgan, Jackie Robinson,Ryne Sandberg, Jeff Kent....LOL

 

Guys I'm not saying he doesn't have some impressive numbers. He does. But considering him a 1st ballot HOF is ridiculous.

 

Does Defense not come into play at all here? I mean the ability to field your position well should count for something. And if it doesn't, then just looking at his numbers, he doesn't really stack up that well to the all time hitters of the game.:dunno:

 

 

Outside of his spitting incident, I would consider Roberto Alomar a HOF 2B before Kent.

[Keeper]

Outside of his spitting incident' date=' I would consider Roberto Alomar a HOF 2B before Kent.[/quote']

 

So would I. Alomar was a better all-around player. But Kent is a HOFer.

 

If defense is so important, will Frank Thomas be denied? Or Mike Piazza?

[italstallianion]

So would I. Alomar was a better all-around player. But Kent is a HOFer.

 

If defense is so important, will Frank Thomas be denied? Or Mike Piazza?

 

 

 

I think what bosoxnation is arguing is that there's a difference between getting in the HOF on the first ballot, and getting in eventually. I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that bosoxnation is arguing that Kent deserves to be in the HOF but not on the first ballot.

 

 

Am I anywhere close bsn07??

[a700hitter]

Kent is an ass. I can't believe anyone thinks he is a HOF. Ya he hit alot of HR, but that's not what's important at 2B. His glove was mediocore at best, and he was a clubhouse downer.

 

IMO, He juiced, his best HR stretch came in pinnacle of the "steroid era". And after he left Barry, he was a marginal player(although age can be taken into consideration as well).

He blows away other second baseman in HRs, RBI and SLG %. There's no evidence that he ever did roids. His career followed a normal path. As he got older, he productivity declined, unlike Bar-roid who started hitting 70+ homers in his late 30's. Was he a dick. He played hard and took no prisoners. The fact that he wasn't friendly is irrelevant.

[jacksonianmarch]

agree. Kent's in. Arguing any other way is dumb

[ORS]

Say it out loud' date=' "Jeff Kent is the all time leader in HR at 2B". It's like saying he's the skinniest kid at fat camp. There's more to being a HOF then offensive #'s.[/b']

Rod Carew, Rogers Hornsby,Joe Morgan, Jackie Robinson,Ryne Sandberg, Jeff Kent....LOL

 

Guys I'm not saying he doesn't have some impressive numbers. He does. But considering him a 1st ballot HOF is ridiculous.

 

Does Defense not come into play at all here? I mean the ability to field your position well should count for something. And if it doesn't, then just looking at his numbers, he doesn't really stack up that well to the all time hitters of the game.:dunno:

 

 

Outside of his spitting incident, I would consider Roberto Alomar a HOF 2B before Kent.

What a f***ing retarded statement. Baseball is a game where position matters. Accurate evaluations should always include the context of position. The fact that Kent did something positive more than any other HOF second baseman matters, no matter how foolishly you attempt to diminish that accomplishment.

 

Cite your stats, please. You call him deficient at 2B? Back it up. By Rate2 and the limited amount of UZR data at fangraphs, he was average through his prime and up to about the age of 35.

 

Who do you compare him to when you say he doesn't stack up as a hitter? Certainly not other HOF 2B, because if you consider position, like you should, he's in the all-time elite club offensively.

 

The first ballot argument is irrelevant, and more importantly, not the original point you made. You said he wasn't good enough, full stop. Now you are saying he's not good enough for the first ballot. What the f*** does first ballot mean? Either you are good enough, or you aren't. The first ballot issue is just mental masturbatory tool some writers use to inflate their own self-worth.

[BSN07]

Listen I'm not trying ruffle feathers, or make anyone upset. This is all just my personal opinion. If he gets in congrats to him and I'm fine with that. I'm just saying, I don't believe Jeff Kent to be a HOF, 1st ballot, 2nd ballot, whenever.

 

Here is a great way to sum it up,

 

His defensive rankings among second baseman do nothing to help his cause: He's seventh all-time in games played, 17th in chances, 15th in assists, 22nd in putouts but only 79th in fielding percentage.

 

His resume isn't exactly overflowing with honors, either. He was the 2000 NL MVP and he played on five All-Star teams, but he only had three other top-10 MVP finishes and it seems strange that the "best offensive second baseman of all-time" only won four Silver Slugger awards, including none before age 32.

 

In other words, Kent's numbers represent a career that was far from super. Impressive, yes. Hall of Fame worthy, no.

 

As I said if he gets in fine, but I think he is 3rd behind Biggio and Alomar, as far as HOF 2B waiting to get in.

[BSN07]

This is where he ranks for 2B all time,

 

 

Batting average: 29th, .290

 

HR: 1st 377

 

RBIs: 3rd, 1,518

 

OBP: 49th, .356

 

Slug: 4th, .500

 

Walks: 24th, 801

 

Hits: 10th, 2,461

 

Runs: 11th, 1,320

 

Strikeouts: 2nd, 1,522

 

 

Good yes, HOF:dunno:

[BSN07]

As far as my PED theory,

 

His best HR #'s came from 1997(first year in SF)-2005, for the better part of the "steroid era", color me skeptical. Do I have proof, of course not, I said it was all personal opinion.

 

But as far as PED's go, I am on record as saying there are very few players that would "surprise" me if they used.

[26 to 6]

You've got the goods on Biggio? For real? I always liked him...

I've got a little something-something. Nothing that can be proven, all I can give you is hearsay and a third party account. I can't produce any proof of the conversation or anything of the sort, but a former Astros farmhand who was invited to several Big League camps and even got a small cup of coffee with the 'stros told me that he, Biggio, Camminitti and others all used together during one camp in particular. He specifically mentioned that one afternoon at Cammy's apartment in Kissimmee Biggio himself injected this player. Take it how you want it, I chose to take the player's word, feeling that he wouldnt lie about something such as this. He trusted me with this, even admitting that he himself is guilty, so don't ask me to reveal his identity or anything because I won't.

[Keeper]

Sounds plausible to me. But I'd be lying if I said I wasn't disappointed in Biggio. Oh well.

[26 to 6]

I am too. I learned of this in 2004-2005 and never looked at him the same way again.

 

Now I can't tell you if his use was rampant or how long he did it; whether it was throughout a significant portion of his career or if he just briefly experimented with it, but either way it's wrong and disappointing.

[a700hitter]

I am too. I learned of this in 2004-2005 and never looked at him the same way again.

I could never look at Wade Boggs the same way after I found out that he used to do Suzyn Waldman.

[Cocos Disciples]

I could never look at Wade Boggs the same way after I found out that he used to do Suzyn Waldman.

 

"Of all the dramatic things!!"

[example1]

I'm slightly torn on Jeff Kent as a HOF player. Part of that is because he isn't a characteristic 2B. The numbers we would usually look for from a 2B would be OBP, SB, H, etc.,. Instead, he leads all 2B in HRs, that's the most impressive number he has going for him, and something that shouldn't be overlooked. Of course, it comes in an era when HRs were flying out of ball parks. His career .356 OBP and .500 SLG are decent, but unexceptional--the .500 SLG is pretty good (top 100 all-time), but a .356 OBP isn't that impressive by itself. He played 17 seasons and had a total of 2298 hits, which also isn't fantastic, but it puts him in the same class as guys like Chipper Jones, DiMagio and McCovey... so not bad.

 

It looks like his OBP went slightly up over the years, at least his attention to walks seems to have improved, which is something I always look at when trying to figure out if a player is using. Was it that pitchers suddenly started pitching around him because he was a hulking beast, or did his eye and plate discipline improve and get him slightly more walks. In his case it looks like the later.

 

I'm suspicious because he played with Bonds for so long, but I can't let suspicion get in the way of a good argument and won't let it play out here. He was a very productive 2B, a position that tends to not have a lot of power hitters or middle-lineup mashers, which Kent was. I don't like him as a person or as a player, but can't let that sway me either.

 

Overall, I guess he gets in in my opinion. He had a number of very good seasons, including 8 out of 9 seasons with 100+ RBI. He was productive with a few different teams, played for a long time, and was consistently one of the top 5 offensively at his position throughout most of that time and he wasn't moved from 2B, which tells me his defense was adequate. That's a very good career.

 

Unlike others here, I don't see this as a purely open and shut case. Its close, and I had to look up a number of thing before concluding 'yes'. One of them was where he hit in the lineup. He hit 4th for most of his time in SF. If he had been hitting 3rd I would have been more skeptical, with Bonds and his massive body waiting behind him. But he hit BEHIND Bonds, with guys like JT Snow behind him. His RBI numbers were helped, but he had 5 seasons in SF above his career average OBP, even with s*** behind him.

 

Overall, sure, he gets in.

[a700hitter]

"Of all the dramatic things!!"

Oh my Gawd!!! Wade Boggs was in Suzyn Waldman's box!!!