... and Smoltz is Not Far Behind

[MANNYHOF24]

Nah' date=' I'll stay. I find the prospect matcing wits with you about as intimidating as the threat of a girl losing her virginity on a date with Soxfan#1.[/quote']

 

Classic.

[BSN07]

Nah' date=' I'll stay. I find the prospect matcing wits with you about as intimidating as the threat of a girl losing her virginity on a date with Soxfan#1.[/quote']

 

Good stuff

[a700hitter]

...and so it begins. This is what happens when a pitcher is coming back from shoulder surgery. The first time they shut the guy down it is called a bump in the road. The second shutdown will be followed by a medical evaluation, and the third shutdown will spell the end of his season. I'm not expecting much from Smoltz. He's two more shutdowns from a wash out.

 

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2009/04/30/smoltz_goes_with_changeup/

[BoSox21]

I'll give Francona this, he's the king of sugar-coating things

 

Asked if there had been an acute issue, or if there was soreness, Francona said, "I don't know if I would say there's no soreness, because I think that when you're however old he is, I bet you to jog it hurts. There's nothing that came out crazy or anything like that."

 

But I'm an optimist when it comes to this team and Penny had to be shutdown in ST and he's at the point where he's able to take the mound every fifth day. Not the same injury, I know, but let's see...

[a700hitter]

I'll give Francona this, he's the king of sugar-coating things

 

 

 

But I'm an optimist when it comes to this team and Penny had to be shutdown in ST and he's at the point where he's able to take the mound every fifth day. Not the same injury, I know, but let's see...

...and Penny's command has sucked.

 

I'm just saying that I am not going to be shocked if the periodic shutdown scenario occurs. It is very common in these cases. If he returns healthy and productive, I'll be pleasantly surprised.

[das11209]

Theo's sick bay acquisitions:

 

Penny, Smoltz and Rocco.

[jacksonianmarch]

Lets see...

 

He picks up Saito who was considered to have a UCL that's "hanging by a thread". He comes out and gives up more homers this season already (2) than he did in 40+ innings last yr (1). And, right now, his OPS against is .997. Granted, small sample size, but he is certainly not the guy he was when he was a dodger. Maybe he turns it around.

 

He picks up Baldelli and re-signs Kotsay. About 2 weeks after resigning Kotsay, he goes down with back surgery. Did they expect that when they signed him? Then they pick up a guy in Baldelli who has a genetic disorder that is going to weaken him chronically. Treatable, but there nonetheless. He pulls a hammy and is out for who knows how long.

 

They sign Penny, a guy with a good track record, but is coming off a shoulder injury that wasnt fixed. He gets shut down in ST, comes back, regains velocity but can't command anything. And RSN is screaming for his DFA, already.

 

They sign Smoltz, a guy they know wont be back until June at 41 after major reconstructive shoulder surgery. Now he has a setback.

 

The sox offseason acquisitions have done nothing, actually they have hurt this team through the first month of the season. Theo should thank his lucky stars that the minor league juggernaut he's created can mask his inability to find exogenous talent. Van Every saves his ass last night while Nancy is on the rag. Lowell comes back like a wild man. Youkilis gets even better. And Masterson looks like a CY candidate. If he pitches every night like he did vs the yankees, he will be the ace of the staff by yrs end. 96 mph 2 seamers with that slider is just solid.

[a700hitter]

Lets see...

 

He picks up Saito who was considered to have a UCL that's "hanging by a thread". He comes out and gives up more homers this season already (2) than he did in 40+ innings last yr (1). And, right now, his OPS against is .997. Granted, small sample size, but he is certainly not the guy he was when he was a dodger. Maybe he turns it around.

 

He picks up Baldelli and re-signs Kotsay. About 2 weeks after resigning Kotsay, he goes down with back surgery. Did they expect that when they signed him? Then they pick up a guy in Baldelli who has a genetic disorder that is going to weaken him chronically. Treatable, but there nonetheless. He pulls a hammy and is out for who knows how long.

 

They sign Penny, a guy with a good track record, but is coming off a shoulder injury that wasnt fixed. He gets shut down in ST, comes back, regains velocity but can't command anything. And RSN is screaming for his DFA, already.

 

They sign Smoltz, a guy they know wont be back until June at 41 after major reconstructive shoulder surgery. Now he has a setback.

 

The sox offseason acquisitions have done nothing, actually they have hurt this team through the first month of the season. Theo should thank his lucky stars that the minor league juggernaut he's created can mask his inability to find exogenous talent. Van Every saves his ass last night while Nancy is on the rag. Lowell comes back like a wild man. Youkilis gets even better. And Masterson looks like a CY candidate. If he pitches every night like he did vs the yankees, he will be the ace of the staff by yrs end. 96 mph 2 seamers with that slider is just solid.

I can't disagree with a thing in your post.

[BoSox21]

He's right about everything but it is a bit premature to suggest the off-season was a complete failure.

[a700hitter]

He's right about everything but it is a bit premature to suggest the off-season was a complete failure.

He hasn't made that conclusion, but he correctly states that as of this point in the season there have been no notable accomplishments by the off-season acquisitions.

[Dojji]

THe offseason wasn't set up to make or break our season to begin with. Its success or failure is not going to determine very much for us anyway.

 

It doesn't MATTER what most of our signings do because all they are is supplements to an existing strong, young core, and we have young players behind most of our signings that could also do the same job in the same way, better in most cases.

 

Bard > Saito

Bowden > Penny

Buchholz > Smoltz

[das11209]

He's right about everything but it is a bit premature to suggest the off-season was a complete failure.

 

What would you say is the + of the off-season acquisitions?

 

Seriously - I do not see any.

 

I am happy with the Sox so far - but the only improvement this year came in a trade of RamRam.

 

Could we have done better even if we did not get Tex - absolutely.

[das11209]

THe offseason wasn't set up to make or break our season to begin with. Its success or failure is not going to determine very much for us anyway.

 

It doesn't MATTER what most of our signings do because all they are is supplements to an existing strong, young core, and we have young players behind most of our signings that could also do the same job in the same way, better in most cases.

 

Bard > Saito

Bowden > Penny

Buchholz > Smoltz

 

That is pretty much the point. Because home grown players have been bailing out - we have not seen the failures from stupid trades and acquisitions and sometime no moves.

 

Seriously - as much credit Theo should get for farm development - he has done nothing with free agents or trades in the last few years - unless you call overpaying Drew and Lugo a success.

[a700hitter]

THe offseason wasn't set up to make or break our season to begin with. Its success or failure is not going to determine very much for us anyway.

 

It doesn't MATTER what most of our signings do because all they are is supplements to an existing strong, young core, and we have young players behind most of our signings that could also do the same job in the same way, better in most cases.

 

Bard > Saito

Bowden > Penny

Buchholz > Smoltz

Then what was the point of the acquisitions if nothing was expected from them--- to throw away $12-13 million?

[das11209]

Then what was the point of the acquisitions if nothing was expected from them--- to throw away $12-13 million?

 

I guess the point is Theo expects to get a diamond in the rough somehow. That has not worked out so well historically for him since he got Wade Millar. Injury prone players have gone back mostly to where they belong - DL or sometime DFA.

[jacksonianmarch]

and Theo gets uncanny success out of his young kids. This is something that just cannot be sustainable. You cannot roll 7's every time, eventually you hit snake eyes. He brings up Lester, he fares well through cancer, then absolutely dominates last yr. He brings up Pedroia, has one rough month then goes on to ROY and MVP. He brings up Youkilis who starts out serviceable and becomes MVP caliber. He brings up Papelbon who goes from being a wild guy with good stuff to being one of the top closers in the game. He brings up Ellsbury who immediately steps in and keys the sox to a WS victory. After a rough 08, he comes back well in 09. He brings up Delcarmen who starts off slow then becomes a solid setup man. He brings up Buchholz who throws a no hitter in his second or third start. Granted, he struggled last yr, but he will likely be up this yr at some point. He brings up Bowden who has a good start last yr, then comes in for a big spot this last weekend and gets the job done vs NYY. He brings up Van Every who subs in for Drew and wins the game for him. He brings up Masterson, who right now looks like the sox best non knuckler throwing pitcher. He hasnt missed much in the minors. When he eventually does, his exogenous acquisitions will come to the limelight. But sox fans arent complaining with Masterson stepping in, and if Bard steps in and if Buchholz steps in.

[das11209]

and Theo gets uncanny success out of his young kids. This is something that just cannot be sustainable. You cannot roll 7's every time' date=' eventually you hit snake eyes. He brings up Lester, he fares well through cancer, then absolutely dominates last yr. He brings up Pedroia, has one rough month then goes on to ROY and MVP. He brings up Youkilis who starts out serviceable and becomes MVP caliber. He brings up Papelbon who goes from being a wild guy with good stuff to being one of the top closers in the game. He brings up Ellsbury who immediately steps in and keys the sox to a WS victory. After a rough 08, he comes back well in 09. He brings up Delcarmen who starts off slow then becomes a solid setup man. He brings up Buchholz who throws a no hitter in his second or third start. Granted, he struggled last yr, but he will likely be up this yr at some point. He brings up Bowden who has a good start last yr, then comes in for a big spot this last weekend and gets the job done vs NYY. He brings up Van Every who subs in for Drew and wins the game for him. He brings up Masterson, who right now looks like the sox best non knuckler throwing pitcher. He hasnt missed much in the minors. When he eventually does, his exogenous acquisitions will come to the limelight. But sox fans arent complaining with Masterson stepping in, and if Bard steps in and if Buchholz steps in.[/quote']

 

Unfortunately even the kids have been mostly over-hyped prospects for the Yankees. Theo gets credit for the farm - I do not see Cashman gets any credit whatsoever even though he has the resource of infinite money.

[Dojji]

Then what was the point of the acquisitions if nothing was expected from them--- to throw away $12-13 million?

 

The point is to try to avoid putting yourself in a position where you have to throw someone into the fire who isn't yet ready for it (see Buchholz last year).

 

If you throw a kid into the fire and he sucks, all you have to fall back on is maybe another kid -- if you're lucky. If you sign a veteran instead and he sucks, you have a chance of promoting a kid to take his place -- and have time to figure out exactly which kid it should be. It's an extra layer of insurance against getting absolutely no production at ALL from a spot in the lineup and a chance to buy time to allow merit to sort out who deserves to be getting chances based on what they're doing (AND how they're doing it!) in the minors.

 

If we hadn't signed Penny, Saito and Smoltz, then we would have broken camp with Buchholz or Bowden in the rotation and very little minor league insurance at SP. Daisuke's injury would have been a potential disaster, coinciding as it did with Buchholz' hammy pull. Bard would also be in the bullpen right now occupying Saito's space, ready or not. Bowden would be in service now either as a SP or an RP. That's a lot of pieces with a reasonable chance of failure and not much behind them but AAAA scrubs and reclamation projects, besides whatever damage a premature callup might do to the development of the kids we had on the roster.

 

Put it all together, and a couple decent filler types with upside are a good deal to make in the offseason for a team in player developpment phase, even if they don't exactly play up to their ability while on the roster they tend to have some use just because of the guys who aren't there.

[BoSox21]

and Theo gets uncanny success out of his young kids. This is something that just cannot be sustainable. You cannot roll 7's every time' date=' eventually you hit snake eyes.[/quote']

 

He rolled snake eyes with Craig Hansen. Not every draft pick he makes is gonna be a big league star but I don't see why it isn't sustainable to have prospects regularly make an impact with the big club.

[Dojji]

and Theo gets uncanny success out of his young kids. This is something that just cannot be sustainable. You cannot roll 7's every time' date=' eventually you hit snake eyes. .[/quote']

 

We've hit snake-eyes plenty. Hansen, Buchholz last year, Lowrie's injury, and in the minors, Bryce Cox,, Dan Bard's early struggles, Nick Hagadone, Caleb Clay and Anthony Rizzo suffer massive setbacks, and that's just upper picks and upper prospects within the last couple years.

 

What we can do that the Yankees aren't doing right now, is we can build up depth around the young core and allow the team to introduce a new player relatively gently, such as the Crisp-Ellsbury platoon last year or the Cora-Pedroia platoon the year before, or the couple years Youkilis spent on the bench. In New York if a kid produces at all he's in the fire, instantly. They can't do it any other way, they just don't have the institutional reserve we have that allows us to do it this way.

[Dipre]

We've hit snake-eyes plenty. Hansen, Buchholz last year, Lowrie's injury, and in the minors, Bryce Cox,, Dan Bard's early struggles, Nick Hagadone, Caleb Clay and Anthony Rizzo suffer massive setbacks, and that's just upper picks and upper prospects within the last couple years.

 

What we can do that the Yankees aren't doing right now, is we can build up depth around the young core and allow the team to introduce a new player relatively gently, such as the Crisp-Ellsbury platoon last year or the Cora-Pedroia platoon the year before, or the couple years Youkilis spent on the bench. In New York if a kid produces at all he's in the fire, instantly. They can't do it any other way, they just don't have the institutional reserve we have that allows us to do it this way.

 

Jason Place says hello.

[Dojji]

Yeah, him too.

 

BTW -- our offseason wasn't a total bust. You guys are forgetting the Crisp trade that netted us Ramon Ramirez. THAT one is looking like, if not a stroke of genius, at least a solid win-win for both squads.

[Youk Of The Nation]

That is pretty much the point. Because home grown players have been bailing out - we have not seen the failures from stupid trades and acquisitions and sometime no moves.

 

Seriously - as much credit Theo should get for farm development - he has done nothing with free agents or trades in the last few years - unless you call overpaying Drew and Lugo a success.

 

Yeah, he has done absolutely nothing in trades or free agents. Theo will go down in history as the driving force behind the acquisition of such busts as Mike Lowell, Jason Bay, Josh Beckett, and even that bum Schilling. Not to mention minor moves that backfired horribly, like trading reigning MVP winner Coco Crisp for Ramon Ramirez and his disgusting 30.67 ERA. Yes, there have been bad trades, but there have been good ones too. And tell me...if we don't have Drew and his decent bat (no matter what anyone says Drew is doing quite well here in Boston), who plays right field all of 07 and 08? Van Every? You think he would have produced even close to Drew in 08?

[Cocos Disciples]

d00d what about dirt dog Trotman?

[Dojji]

We'd have David Murphy in RF. Woo.

[das11209]

Yeah' date=' he has done absolutely nothing in trades or free agents. Theo will go down in history as the driving force behind the acquisition of such busts as Mike Lowell, Jason Bay, Josh Beckett, and even that bum Schilling. Not to mention minor moves that backfired horribly, like trading reigning MVP winner Coco Crisp for Ramon Ramirez and his disgusting 30.67 ERA. Yes, there have been bad trades, but there have been good ones too. And tell me...if we don't have Drew and his decent bat (no matter what anyone says Drew is doing quite well here in Boston), who plays right field all of 07 and 08? Van Every? You think he would have produced even close to Drew in 08?[/quote']

 

I am fine with Drew unlike a lot of Sox fan even though he has had health issues- the question was whether it was worth to give him the 6 year contract when no one was willing to and I would say we should have negotiated better. In case of Lugo no-one was willing to give him any contracts at all.

 

The point I was trying to make was that Theo has been largely unsuccessful in free agents and trades. RamRam this year is a good exception. Whereas he has been one of the best in terms of building the farm and slowing bringing them up at ML level.

 

P.S. - Dude I am sure you know this but Theo did not make the Hanley trade for Becket/Lowell - he was on his self discovery tour.

[Youk Of The Nation]

Oh s***, yeah, that was when he got all adolescent on the owners. You don't think he had any hand in that, though?

[das11209]

Oh s***' date=' yeah, that was when he got all adolescent on the owners. You don't think he had any hand in that, though?[/quote']

 

I don't know - in any case we sure have won on the 1st half of Hanley trade as we got a ring. Let us see how that plays out in the long run.

 

Schilling trade was a good one - no doubt. Bay was forced on us by Manny - but worked out well so far.

[Cocos Disciples]

I am fine with Drew unlike a lot of Sox fan even though he has had health issues- the question was whether it was worth to give him the 6 year contract when no one was willing to and I would say we should have negotiated better. In case of Lugo no-one was willing to give him any contracts at all.

 

5 years. As for Lugo, I think everyone can agree that deal was awful. But I'm content with Drew. And as was said earlier, who is in RF if not Drew? Wily Mo Pena?

[das11209]

5 years. As for Lugo' date=' I think everyone can agree that deal was awful. But I'm content with Drew. And as was said earlier, who is in RF if not Drew? Wily Mo Pena?[/quote']

 

As I said earlier - I am fine with Drew - but we should/could have negotiated better.