How will Red Sox finish the offseason?

[Dojji]

Balancing that is the fact that he plays one of the positions in all of baseball that has the least talent available to it right now.

 

Instead of developing 3Bmen at their own position players with any defensive question at all and a good bat in their hand (Teixeira, Pujols) are being moved to first base. What that means in practical terms is that anyone who plays good defensive 3B and is a productive hitter is going to be in demand because rich, contending teams don't have a lot of guys to go out there and sign to get that production.

 

Obviously it depends on Youkilis repeating his 2008 campaign until he hits FA but that's not really so far-fetched. He's a good fundamentally sound hitter and he's built himself up well. This is no determiner of anything but he even looks like a power hitter now where he really didn't as late as 2006.

[MANNYHOF24]

If he's hitting 25-30 HR's and providing quality 3B defense i think you have to seriously think about paying Youkilis that much. He's not that far behind Teixeira as a hitter and plays (or is capable of playing) a much more premium position.

 

Besides, his brand of patient hitting is a type that ages well so as long as he can stick at 3B defensively he should provide good value to the ballclub.

 

Wait, so you would give youk 23 million a year, but not Teixeria?

[jacksonianmarch]

Wait' date=' so you would give youk 23 million a year, but not Teixeria?[/quote']

 

lol. Tex has been hitting with that level of production for 5 yrs now, but he isnt worth it even though he is younger and switch hits. Dojji, he has a bit of a point

[Dojji]

Wait' date=' so you would give youk 23 million a year, but not Teixeria?[/quote']

 

I dunno about 23 mil, it'd depend on where the market was when Youk hits FA and how much he can get from other teams, but I would pay a premium to keep his services and my reasons seem good to me.

 

I wouldn't pay for Teixeira because the only gain is on the margin between him and who he was replacing. We had a veteran in the position he'd occupy which blunts the gain. It's different with Youk because we really don't have anyone else who can play 3B when Lowell goes away and don't have anyone profiling as his level of 3B for at least another 2 years after he hits FA and that depends on Michael Almanzar developing the way we think he will -- by no means a sure thing.

 

In other words, if we didn't get Teixeira we would still have, on paper, all our positions covered by competent ballplayers. This is NOT necessarily true if we lose Youkilis, so you pay him because he represents your only available option at a position.

 

Your alternate at 3B is Jed Lowrie, and he's already the SS -- that's a lot of VORP the window with the loss of your 3B and your SS's production now coming from the 3B bracket as well. Your generosity to Youkilis should reflect that.

[example1]

I dunno about 23 mil, it'd depend on where the market was when Youk hits FA and how much he can get from other teams, but I would pay a premium to keep his services and my reasons seem good to me.

 

I wouldn't pay for Teixeira because the only gain is on the margin between him and who he was replacing. We had a veteran in the position he'd occupy which blunts the gain. It's different with Youk because we really don't have anyone else who can play 3B when Lowell goes away and don't have anyone profiling as his level of 3B for at least another 2 years after he hits FA and that depends on Michael Almanzar developing the way we think he will -- by no means a sure thing.

 

In other words, if we didn't get Teixeira we would still have, on paper, all our positions covered by competent ballplayers. This is NOT necessarily true if we lose Youkilis, so you pay him because he represents your only available option at a position.

 

Your alternate at 3B is Jed Lowrie, and he's already the SS -- that's a lot of VORP the window with the loss of your 3B and your SS's production now coming from the 3B bracket as well. Your generosity to Youkilis should reflect that.

 

The Sox are not going to pay Youkilis 23m a year. I just don't see it. I think the Youkilis negotiations could get ugly, actually. I hope the Sox come in with a high value contract, maybe 80m/5 years or something along those lines. If he doesn't take that then he, just like the rest of players lately, is thumbing his nose at 'the nation' and taking the money.

 

We have to remember, we care about this team, this franchise, the ballpark, the other fans, the history. These players are introduced to the system, but many of them don't have any deep connection to the Sox the way that we do. I think Youkilis has shown some of the best heart of any Sox player in many years and he seems to have internalized the Sox nation mantra the last few years. It is easy to forget that his heart doesn't pump the red, white and blue of the Sox.

 

Offer him a large deal, if he doesn't take it drive a hard bargain.

[BoSox21]

I dont think its so much of a money issue to the Sox as it is the amount of years Youkilis probably wants. The way he plays the game, Youkilis is the poster boy for a player who will potentially start breaking down in 4-5 years and I'm sure he and his agent are seeking something in the 6-7 year range at a salary in the neighborhood of players who produced like he did in 2008.

 

The fact that Lars Anderson is also waiting in the wings and should be MLB-ready right at the time Youk hits FA doesn't help Youk's cause either. And the Sox seem to feel a market correction is gonna happen in the coming years which seems to be the reason they gave Tex such a modest offer so they aren't gonna go out and sign Youk to a $20+ million deal in this market

[Dojji]

The fact that Lars Anderson is also waiting in the wings and should be MLB-ready right at the time Youk hits FA doesn't help Youk's cause either.

 

I dont think it either helps or hinders Youk's cause. If all Youkilis is is a first baseman he's not as important to the team anyway. I'm proposing paying premium for him mostly on the basis of his ability to play 3B and what in my judgement is a total lack of talented 3B's in the high minors.

 

Lars is a LHT so how he plays at 1B is at best tangential to Youk's value

 

BTW -- for the record, 23M was Jacko's number. Mine would be more around the $18M mark.

[Dojji]

The Sox are not going to pay Youkilis 23m a year. I just don't see it. I think the Youkilis negotiations could get ugly, actually. I hope the Sox come in with a high value contract, maybe 80m/5 years or something along those lines. If he doesn't take that then he, just like the rest of players lately, is thumbing his nose at 'the nation' and taking the money.

 

We have to remember, we care about this team, this franchise, the ballpark, the other fans, the history. These players are introduced to the system, but many of them don't have any deep connection to the Sox the way that we do. I think Youkilis has shown some of the best heart of any Sox player in many years and he seems to have internalized the Sox nation mantra the last few years. It is easy to forget that his heart doesn't pump the red, white and blue of the Sox.

 

Offer him a large deal, if he doesn't take it drive a hard bargain.

 

I don't give a hoot whether he bleeds pinstripes if he fills a hole competently.

[BoSox21]

I dont think it either helps or hinders Youk's cause. If all Youkilis is is a first baseman he's not as important to the team anyway. I'm proposing paying premium for him mostly on the basis of his ability to play 3B and what in my judgement is a total lack of talented 3B's in the high minors.

 

Lars is a LHT so how he plays at 1B is at best tangential to Youk's value

 

BTW -- for the record, 23M was Jacko's number. Mine would be more around the $18M mark.

 

But knowing how hard he plays the game, would you offer him a 6-7 year deal at around $18 mil a season?

[riverside sluggers]

I dont think its so much of a money issue to the Sox as it is the amount of years Youkilis probably wants. The way he plays the game, Youkilis is the poster boy for a player who will potentially start breaking down in 4-5 years and I'm sure he and his agent are seeking something in the 6-7 year range at a salary in the neighborhood of players who produced like he did in 2008.

 

The fact that Lars Anderson is also waiting in the wings and should be MLB-ready right at the time Youk hits FA doesn't help Youk's cause either. And the Sox seem to feel a market correction is gonna happen in the coming years which seems to be the reason they gave Tex such a modest offer so they aren't gonna go out and sign Youk to a $20+ million deal in this market

 

But Youkilis is also highly capable of being a gold glove 3rd baseman, which makes the need to give him an extension (if possible greater). As Dojii said, they will be forced to look into free agents in 2010 regardless

[Dojji]

But knowing how hard he plays the game' date=' would you offer him a 6-7 year deal at around $18 mil a season?[/quote']

 

Let me answer that question with a question -- do you see any alternatives coming up through our farm system in even the next 5 years that you'd throw Youkilis over for?

[BSN07]

Let me answer that question with a question -- do you see any alternatives coming up through our farm system in even the next 5 years that you'd throw Youkilis over for?

 

Not in the system, but when is David Wright a FA?LOL

[Dojji]

Given the financial resources of the Mets and the fact that Wright is still a New York fan favorite, never is probably ur answer.

 

Garrett Atkins is more likely to be your man.

[Dipre]

Given the financial resources of the Mets and the fact that Wright is still a New York fan favorite, never is probably ur answer.

 

Garrett Atkins is more likely to be your man.

 

Ugh.

 

I'd rather pay 23 per to Youk.

[Dojji]

So you see my point about ability to replace at 3B. There really isn't a lot out there.

[TheKilo]

You are aware that I damaged my reputation severely here in strenuous arguments involving my not wanting this "someone." I'm perhaps the only Sox fan here that can take that position right now without the slightest stain of hypocrisy.

 

That's all well and good, but when the RED SOX FRONT OFFICE comes out and says that signing Teixeira is their number one priority and then comes out and fails miserably, they have some explaining to do.

[example1]

Why? What more is there to say? They wanted him, they didn't get him, there are myriad reasons. Move on.

 

Part of it was money and what the Sox were willing to offer, part of it was Boras, part of it was Teixeira's desire to play in NY.

[TheKilo]

I don't know how many more times I can say it - negotiating with the big fish is fine, but you need to have contingency plans if and when that falls through.

 

Two of the biggest things they can do to improve the team in the sort and long term would be extending Youkilis and Bay, but they aren't working on these. I can't for the life of me fathom why - especially when Bay has expressed interest in an extension.

[example1]

I don't know how many more times I can say it - negotiating with the big fish is fine, but you need to have contingency plans if and when that falls through.

 

I think the contingency plan was to do nothing. It was either get Teixeira, or stick with Youkilis or Lowell

 

Two of the biggest things they can do to improve the team in the sort and long term would be extending Youkilis and Bay, but they aren't working on these. I can't for the life of me fathom why - especially when Bay has expressed interest in an extension.

 

How the hell do you know what they're working on? I have seen the same reports you have from Youk's agent saying they aren't talking any more because they were disagreeing on terms of a deal, but I don't know the same about Bay.

 

Also, from what I see (http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2004/12/boston-red-sox.html) Youkilis still has two seasons before FA. Am I seeing that wrong? I see he was paid in 05, 06, 07 and 08 as full MLB seasons, of which he has a little more than 4 currently.

 

I agree with you that both of these guys should be re-signed, but I don't assume the FO is just twiddling their thumbs being complacent.

[TheKilo]

I think the contingency plan was to do nothing. It was either get Teixeira' date=' or stick with Youkilis or Lowell[/quote']

 

They spent all their time and resources going after Teixeira when they could have been getting a catcher, a SP, and a 4th OF. I know they have time but they need to do a hell of a job with these things.

 

 

How the hell do you know what they're working on? I have seen the same reports you have from Youk's agent saying they aren't talking any more because they were disagreeing on terms of a deal, but I don't know the same about Bay.

 

Bay has said he wants to come back here, and is open to an extension. It hasn't happened yet...when it appears to be a slam dunk. If the FO is going to pass on Bay and wait for Holliday they'll lose another bidding war to the Yankees next offseason.

 

Also, from what I see (http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2004/12/boston-red-sox.html) Youkilis still has two seasons before FA. Am I seeing that wrong? I see he was paid in 05, 06, 07 and 08 as full MLB seasons, of which he has a little more than 4 currently.

 

Correct. If you don't pay him who is going to be your 3B (assuming Lars is the 1B)? Even then I have my doubts that Youk will be the 3B for much longer due to his body type. 3B is a far more demanding defensive position than 1B, and he's been the 1B for three years now.

 

I agree with you that both of these guys should be re-signed, but I don't assume the FO is just twiddling their thumbs being complacent.

 

And you don't assume they're actually working on these deals.

[example1]

They spent all their time and resources going after Teixeira when they could have been getting a catcher, a SP, and a 4th OF. I know they have time but they need to do a hell of a job with these things.

 

Really? Aren't they mostly replacing Varitek (.220avg, s*** the rest of the way down), Paul Byrd and Mark Kotsay? I don't think they need to do a hell of a job with these things, and I actually don't think they need to spend a lot of prospects to get a top-notch young catching talent the more I think about it. Certainly not someone as talented as Buchholz.

 

 

Bay has said he wants to come back here, and is open to an extension. It hasn't happened yet...when it appears to be a slam dunk. If the FO is going to pass on Bay and wait for Holliday they'll lose another bidding war to the Yankees next offseason.

 

I agree with you whole heaertedly. Bay approximates Holliday, but will cost less, is happy in Boston, and is currently in Boston seeking a deal. I don't know what the hold-up is with him, but I won't be shocked if sometime between now and the beginning of the year something is worked out. He should be paid handsomely.

 

Correct. If you don't pay him who is going to be your 3B (assuming Lars is the 1B)? Even then I have my doubts that Youk will be the 3B for much longer due to his body type. 3B is a far more demanding defensive position than 1B, and he's been the 1B for three years now.

 

So, perhaps the Sox agree with you? I have my doubts about his longterm viability at 3B, and see Anderson coming and know that Ortiz is the everyday DH. If they are concerned about where Youk fits in then perhaps they look at moving him, like a700 suggested (if they got Teixeira).

 

 

And you don't assume they're actually working on these deals.

 

I assume that if they aren't working on those deals there are legitimate reasons why. I think that if your job were to be GM you would make mistakes and you would have successes, but I doubt you would be more methodical or more committed to winning than the baseball ops group has. Whether they have the money to spend is another matter, dictated (I assume) by ownership.

[BSN07]

I agree with both of you guys(Kilo, Example)

 

Kilo, I think they do need to do something to sure up the holes in the roster(C,4thOF,SP), But I also agree with Ex in thinking we are replacing Tek,Kotsay, and Byrd, not the nuts and bolts of the team.

 

I would like to have seen a plan B, but considering what is out there on the FA market, nothing toots my horn.

 

 

I agree with extending Bay now. I think if they wait, there is a good chance the lose on both Holliday and Bay to the Yanks.

 

I am on the fence about signing Youk long term. I wouldn't mind it, but if he costs what Tex does, then send him packing.

 

 

I'd like to see a stud Catcher w/ a nice bat. but agree, Buchholz should not be dealt. If they can get one for Bowden would be nice. But if it's Bowden the I'd rather not see him dealt for Montero, unless he's going along with Lugo and Byrnes is coming back as well.

[Dipre]

It would be absolutely devastating to see Jason Bay on pinstripes.

 

That said, i'm beginning to like the idea of Miguel Montero+ Byrnes, apparently kid has a ton of potential, and they just extended Chris Snyder.

[rician blast]

That's all well and good' date=' but when the [b']RED SOX FRONT OFFICE[/b] comes out and says that signing Teixeira is their number one priority and then comes out and fails miserably, they have some explaining to do.

 

Tex didn't really want to play here. To entice him it would've likely taken much more than the Yanks offer...I commend the Sox for not being played by Boras and Tex.

 

Now, based upon the reaction of some fans, I'd love to do business with them...they don't understand the setting of, and adherence to, upper financial limits and think if you want something, you pay whatever it costs...would love to negotiate a deal with some of these clowns.

[ydeologi]

Mid-level starting pitcher, 2 catchers, and a fourth outfielder. No surprises there, but maybe they sign one of the power bats on the market or make a trade we don't see coming...

 

They have the chips to deal and the financial flexibility to spare.

[Beckett95]

1. They'll sign a former decent pitcher coming off injuries to an incentive-laden contract,

2. find some cheap backup catcher to backup Kottaras

3. and get some irrelevant fourth outfielder

and then hope Tampa forgot how to win and the Yankee team plane crashes

winner winner chicken dinner

 

1. Brad Penny

2. Josh Bard

3. Paul McAnulty ??

 

just waiting on the last 2 things to happen

[jacksonianmarch]

They spent all their time and resources going after Teixeira when they could have been getting a catcher, a SP, and a 4th OF. I know they have time but they need to do a hell of a job with these things.

 

 

 

 

Bay has said he wants to come back here, and is open to an extension. It hasn't happened yet...when it appears to be a slam dunk. If the FO is going to pass on Bay and wait for Holliday they'll lose another bidding war to the Yankees next offseason.

 

 

 

Correct. If you don't pay him who is going to be your 3B (assuming Lars is the 1B)? Even then I have my doubts that Youk will be the 3B for much longer due to his body type. 3B is a far more demanding defensive position than 1B, and he's been the 1B for three years now.

 

 

 

And you don't assume they're actually working on these deals.

 

Kilo is sounding the concerned alarm and with good reason. Bay is a solid LFer who plays the position well and is relatively young. He has one yr left until FA. The Yankees will have at least 2 openings in the OF come next offseason. Hmmm, see the problem here? He says, hey guys, love it here eh, wanna sign eh? If the sox rest on their laurels on this one they may lose out on both players.

[jacksonianmarch]

winner winner chicken dinner

 

1. Brad Penny

2. Josh Bard

3. Paul McAnulty ??

 

just waiting on the last 2 things to happen

 

f***ING SCARY OFFSEASON, TEH SOX RULEZ THE INTERNETS

[Dipre]

f***ING SCARY OFFSEASON' date=' TEH SOX RULEZ THE INTERNETS[/quote']

 

Yeah he was being sarcastic.

[redsoxrules]

Tex didn't really want to play here. QUOTE]

 

BULL

 

Tex was going were the money was wich was 180/8 or higher

 

If the sox would of offered higher than 180 ,Tex would be saying he didn't want to play for the Yanks and would be in a red sox uniform