Yankees closing in on Lowe

[diony]

The real problem with Lowe signing with the yankees is not his age or track record.

 

It's being an extreme groundball pitcher with a team with god-awful infield defense, which is exactly what the 2004 Boston Red Sox were, coinciding with Lowe's worst year.

 

What about this guy?

 

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2006/writers/tom_verducci/09/27/baseball.mailbag/t1_wang2.jpg

 

And the Yankees infield defense got a huge upgrade with Swisher. It wasn't so awful before anyway.

[Dipre]

They're all professionals and they all know how to field a ground ball. Sure, a few nmight get through but that's not my main concern. My issue is giving those dollars to someone his age. At this point though rumor has it the Yankees have a 5 year, $80 Mil offer on the table for Burnett, I wonder if they sign just one or both, and if they sign both that all but ensures Pettitte goes elsewhere for 2009.

 

..I still say we let both Burnett and Lowe go get grossly overpaid elsewhere and we just sign Sheets and Andy. We already overpaid for one pitcher this offseason.

 

Really?

 

Then how do you explain that when Derek Jeter is THE worst defensive SS in the game right now?

 

The backbone of an infield is its SS, you have a bad SS, plus an average 2b and 3b, with a good 1b, and what you have is a team not fit for a groundball pitcher.

 

(Which speaks volumes of Wang's pitching ability btw)

[Cocos Disciples]

They're all professionals and they all know how to field a ground ball.

 

Some do it a lot better than others. For example, almost everyone does it better than Derek Jeter.

[Dipre]

What about this guy?

 

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2006/writers/tom_verducci/09/27/baseball.mailbag/t1_wang2.jpg

 

And the Yankees infield defense got a huge upgrade with Swisher. It wasn't so awful before anyway.

 

Care to elaborate?

 

Because if you're going by fielding %, you're bound to make an ass out of yourself.

 

As i stated, it speaks volumes about Wang, but you should also take into play the fact that Wang is a FAR superior pitcher in terms of stuff.

[26 to 6]

Some do it a lot better than others. For example' date=' almost everyone does it better than Derek Jeter.[/quote']

I'll still take Derek jeter over Julio Lugo or Jed Lowrie ANYDAY.

[Dipre]

I'll still take Derek jeter over Julio Lugo or Jed Lowrie ANYDAY.

 

Lugo yeah.

 

Lowrie for 300k, better fielding and a LOT younger, add to the fact that i HATE Derek Jeter with every fiber of my being and i have to say that i'd stick with Lowrie.

[TheKilo]

What about this guy?

 

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2006/writers/tom_verducci/09/27/baseball.mailbag/t1_wang2.jpg

 

And the Yankees infield defense got a huge upgrade with Swisher. It wasn't so awful before anyway.

 

Wang's sinker is devastating and he throws much harder than Lowe, although I'm fairly certain Lowe has a higher GB/FB ratio.

[TheKilo]

UZR, Nick Swisher:

 

UZR

 

04 - .4

05 - .2

06 - -3.6

07 - -3.4

08 - .1

 

Average at best.

 

Robinson Cano:

 

2005 - -18.4

2006 - -1.6

2007 - 8.1

2008 - -7.3

 

Jeter, worst defensive player in baseball.

 

ARod, average at best.

[example1]

Lowe to NY doesn't worry me too much. I don't think he's much better on any given day than a "hot" (as in pitching well) Mike Mussina or Andy Pettitte.

[Cocos Disciples]

I'll still take Derek jeter over Julio Lugo or Jed Lowrie ANYDAY.

 

Lugo isn't even a starter anymore, but would you take Jeter over Lowrie defensively?

[26 to 6]

Lugo isn't even a starter anymore' date=' but would you take Jeter over Lowrie defensively?[/quote']

Defense isn't the only part of the game, that's not the question. Certainly Lowrie is a better defensive player, but contract aside when given the choice of Jeter or Lowrie you have to take Jeter.

 

Lowe to NY doesn't worry me too much. I don't think he's much better on any given day than a "hot" (as in pitching well) Mike Mussina or Andy Pettitte.

I agree, which is why I really hope we don't grossly overpay him as it seems we may.

 

UZR, Nick Swisher:

 

UZR

 

04 - .4

05 - .2

06 - -3.6

07 - -3.4

08 - .1

 

Average at best.

 

Robinson Cano:

 

2005 - -18.4

2006 - -1.6

2007 - 8.1

2008 - -7.3

 

Jeter, worst defensive player in baseball.

 

ARod, average at best.

I'm not familiar with UZR, break it down for me?

 

And I respect your opinion, but I really think A-Rod is at least above-average. If not for Eric Chavez he would have 2 gold gloves as a third baseman. For someone who's only played the position for 5 years of his life I think he's done a terrific job.

[Cocos Disciples]

Defense isn't the only part of the game, that's not the question.

 

Sure it is.

 

They're all professionals and they all know how to field a ground ball.

 

Some do it a lot better than others. For example' date=' almost everyone does it better than Derek Jeter.[/quote']

[TheKilo]

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/primate_studies/discussion/lichtman_2003-03-14_0/

[jacksonianmarch]

Wang's sinker is devastating and he throws much harder than Lowe' date=' although I'm fairly certain Lowe has a higher GB/FB ratio.[/quote']

 

Lowe is a better "pitcher" if you know what I mean. He locates better and has much better secondary stuff. Wang has the most devastating pitch of the two of them, in that ridiculous sinker. Regardless, the defense will play a role, but not a big one IMO. Wang sits in the 1.8-3.0 range in terms of GO/AO. Lowe is in the 2.5-3.5 range.

[Gom]

You actually think Lowe is better than Wang?

 

Doesn't matter. My prediction is that Burnett will be a Yankee within 72 hours. Probably a lot less. Why? Jacko is advocating Lowe. Really quite simple formula actually.

[jacksonianmarch]

I am advocating both. And read the post again. I put pitcher in quotations for a reason. I didnt mean better player. Wang is worth a ton more than Lowe. Lowe is the better "pitcher" as in he has better secondary stuff and better control. Wang is the more valuable player because, even though he really has one pitch, he is so damn effective with it that he's carved out a nice niche in the yankee universe as their pseudo-ace. Wang>Lowe. No doubt. But in terms of secondary stuff and location, Lowe takes the cake

[Gom]

Fair enough. However, the fact that Wang doesn't even have a secondary pitch, Lowe wins by default. I think the team that signs Lowe is going to be highly disappointed unless he stays in the NL West.

[26 to 6]

I am advocating both.

So do you not want Pettitte back, or would you prefer move Joba to the pen?

 

If we sign both we're committing approximately $320 Million to 3 pitchers this offseason who all have an issue or concern of some sort. And we wonder why everyone in the country hates us.

 

I still say let Burnett go rot in Atlanta, let Lowe go back to Boston or Philly or wherever, maybe the Mets can get him, they could use him. Give me Sheets and Andy. That won't happen though, it appears very likely Burnett will be signed. In that case I hope we pass on Lowe and sign Sheets, and no matter what sign Andy. If we bring Andy back and don't get Sheets or Lowe we have a rotation of CC, Wang, Burnett, Joba, Andy (not necessarily in that order). If we do get Sheets/Lowe then a lot of people seem to think it would be a good idea to move Joba back to the pen. Frankly I'm not opposed to that idea. I think we have a much better staff all around with Joba setting up and CC, Wang, Burnett, Andy, and Sheets (or Lowe, I prefer Sheets) rounding out the rotation. We'll see what happens though.

 

I think the team that signs Lowe is going to be highly disappointed unless he stays in the NL West.

I second that. Hopefully we pass on him and he goes back to Boston.

[jacksonianmarch]

I have a feeling that Pettitte's injury is more serious than he is letting on, otherwise, this would have been resolved awhile ago. If Andy is fine, then there is no reason NOT to re-up him for one yr.

[26 to 6]

Cashman flew to Texas today to meet with Pettitte. Hopefully something gets worked out. He seems intent on not upping his offer from $10 Mil and if that doesn't satisfy Andy, he plans to move on.

[Cocos Disciples]

If I'm you guys, I move on from Pettitte and focus on one of Burnett and Sheets.

[Gom]

I have a feeling that Pettitte's injury is more serious than he is letting on' date=' otherwise, this would have been resolved awhile ago. If Andy is fine, then there is no reason NOT to re-up him for one yr.[/quote']

 

I can give you about ten million reasons.

 

Look. Pettitte was a juicer. Am I the only one who noticed he'd lost 3 MPH off his fastball this year?

 

You're talking about a pitcher who throws 88-89 MPH who had a 1.41 WHIP and a 4.54 ERA. I wouldn't offer him a salary in the 7 figures. Good luck finding a team that would. I hate how Cashman gives inflated salaries to his own free agent.

 

He took 16 million last year for a s***** performance. His velocity went down 3 MPH in the one season after he was busted doing steroids.

 

Let me give you an example of how Cashman is a f***ing moron for offering this guy 10 million.

 

Pettitte: 14-14, 4.54 ERA, 201 IP, 1.41 WHIP.....turns down [so far] 10 million.

Mystery Pitcher: 10-11, 181 IP 1.18 WHIP....makes 4 million. Also pitches in the AL East.

 

Any guesses? Wakefield. I have no problem with the payroll, but it's ridiculous to offer Pettitte anything more than 6-7 million if you are really operating on a budget. Good luck finding it elsewhere. I'd pass on him in a heartbeat, even at 10 million. I wouldn't even guarantee this guy a spot. If Hughes [sic] actually has put it together, I'd rather see him with Joba, CC, Wang, and another free agent [burnett/Sheets/Lowe] than Pettitte in there.

[jacksonianmarch]

Your comparisons suck once again. On the open market, Pettitte would easily get 10 mil. No questions asked. Big game pitcher with a history of winning wherever he goes and a serious history of durability. Doesnt hurt that he throws lefty. And your "mystery" pitcher is a guy who age wont affect and signed on to stay in Boston because he truly doesnt want to go anywhere else. On the open market, Wake gets 10 mil + as well. Regardless, a durable pitcher is a necessity in the 4 hole on this team. And if Pettitte truly is healthy then I hope it is him since he wants just a one yr deal. If his arm is still suspect, then I dont want him. Whether his velocity is 88 or 91 doesnt matter. He was throwing pus in the beginning of the yr as well. He, like Mussina, started to locate better and made up for the loss of velocity. Where Pettitte started to go downhill was when his arm injury didnt let him get the same movement on the cutter and the change. When the cutter doesnt cut or the changeup remains up, then you have 3 slow pitches hanging in the middle of the zone (if you count the FB that he couldnt keep down) and thats a recipe to get lit up.

[26 to 6]

I can give you about ten million reasons.

Aren't you the same guy who always says that money shouldn't be an issue, we have it might as well spend it, it's not your money, etc. Granted, all of your points are very valid but still, Andy represents something, and sure he had an off year last year, but look at Mussina, he had a bad 2007 and won 20 games last year. I really think Andy could pitch representable next year and then hang 'em up. He's won a lot of big games for us, and he wants to pitch in the new Yankee Stadium and be a part of that so I say we owe it to him. I'd take it a step further and give him the start at the home opener. Granted, even $10 Mil is a lot but that's already a $6 Mil paycut. If he has a problem with the generous $10 Mil we're offering then I say let him go, fine.

 

Also, part of my desire to bring Andy back is the presence of another lefty in the rotation. You need lefty pitchers in that ballpark so the lefty hitters don't pull everything off right handers into that short porch.

 

If I'm you guys' date=' I move on from Pettitte and focus on one of Burnett and Sheets.[/quote']

Are you assuming we have Lowe signed? Because without Pettitte we have room for both Sheets and Burnett.

[jacksonianmarch]

Aren't you the same guy who always says that money shouldn't be an issue, we have it might as well spend it, it's not your money, etc. Granted, all of your points are very valid but still, Andy represents something, and sure he had an off year last year, but look at Mussina, he had a bad 2007 and won 20 games last year. I really think Andy could pitch representable next year and then hang 'em up. He's won a lot of big games for us, and he wants to pitch in the new Yankee Stadium and be a part of that so I say we owe it to him. I'd take it a step further and give him the start at the home opener. Granted, even $10 Mil is a lot but that's already a $6 Mil paycut. If he has a problem with the generous $10 Mil we're offering then I say let him go, fine.

 

Also, part of my desire to bring Andy back is the presence of another lefty in the rotation. You need lefty pitchers in that ballpark so the lefty hitters don't pull everything off right handers into that short porch.

 

 

Are you assuming we have Lowe signed? Because without Pettitte we have room for both Sheets and Burnett.

 

 

for me it is either or. You cannot add 2 guys with serious health questions. Because if both bow out, then we're left with 2005 all over again. We got the big horse. Now we need one other guy with a proven history of health and durability. If we can do that and have a 3 headed monster of CC, Wang, Lowe/Pettitte, then I am all about going for a risky pitcher like Sheets or Burnett. But both of them? Bad idea.

[26 to 6]

I agree, I'm just saying there's room for both. I would prefer we pass on Burnett and sign Sheets for 2 years, rather than give Burnett top dollar for 5 years with a suspect injury history. I would also like to pass on Lowe and let either Pettitte or Hughes round out the rotation.

[Cocos Disciples]

I was thinking you let Hughes be the 5, that's what I've always believed.

[jacksonianmarch]

I think the offseason plan was to fill out the rotation with Joba as the 5 and Hughes in AAA. Sign CC, AJ, Pettitte, and after 2009, when Hughes actually progresses in AAA, move him to the bigs and make him the #5.

[26 to 6]

I think you think you're right a lot

 

Na but that probably was the plan, but if he can do as good in Spring Training as he did in the AFL and there's a spot open then why not let him take it?

[TheKilo]

Your comparisons suck once again. On the open market' date=' Pettitte would easily get 10 mil. [/quote']

 

Stopped reading after this.

 

Pettitte IS on the open market. What team has offered $10 million?