Infield Logjam

[Dipre]

Salty is not ready to handle daily catching duties for any team in 2008. Giving up $ + Lowell + Bowden would be a complete steal by Texas. I'd rather trade Youk + others for Russell Martin. I am not in favor of just giving away Lowell.

 

Ugh.....trading Youkilis instantly makes the team worse........

[example1]

Salty is not ready to handle daily catching duties for any team in 2008.

 

I don't think you actually know. First, I doubt you've watched him enough to know that, and second, even if you did watch him a lot I don't think you would be able to tell.

 

Remember, at one point before the 2007 season you said:

 

Youklis is not in the farm sytem, and he is a mediocre talent at best. In three years he won't be able to find a starting job on any winning team.

 

http://www.talksox.com/forum/talk-sox-forum/8183-red-sox-discussions-rockies-about-helton-2.html

 

...yet you had the advantage of being able to watch Youk every single game.

 

Giving up $ + Lowell + Bowden would be a complete steal by Texas.

 

Again, I think that's hard to know, though I think the Sox could ask for more in return because Salty is potentially more of a project than a finished product. Perhaps Lowell + Bowden without giving the $ for Lowell, or get T.T. from Texas instead.

 

I'd rather trade Youk + others for Russell Martin. I am not in favor of just giving away Lowell.

 

Why trade Youkilis at all? Most teams don't have an elite offensive catcher, and the Sox don't need one either. If the Sox get Teixeira then there is no reason to move Youkilis at all. He's perfect for this lineup and adds versitility.

[a700hitter]

I don't think you actually know. First' date=' I doubt you've watched him enough to know that, and second, even if you [i']did[/i] watch him a lot I don't think you would be able to tell.

 

Remember, at one point before the 2007 season you said:

 

 

 

http://www.talksox.com/forum/talk-sox-forum/8183-red-sox-discussions-rockies-about-helton-2.html

 

...yet you had the advantage of being able to watch Youk every single game.

In this case, I am relying on the opinion of others. Everything that i have read about the guy based on scouts evaluations is that he is defensively challenged and has a long way to go to be an everyday receiver.

 

Why trade Youkilis at all? Most teams don't have an elite offensive catcher' date=' and the Sox don't need one either. If the Sox get Teixeira then there is no reason to move Youkilis at all. He's perfect for this lineup and adds versitility.[/quote']I think Youkilis had his career season in 2008. His value will never be higher. His career year is the average season for Teixeira. Trading Youkilis could help fill another need with high quality player.

[a700hitter]

Ugh.....trading Youkilis instantly makes the team worse........

How do you come to that conclusion, if the Sox sign Teixeira and get a really good player in return for Youkilis?

[TheKilo]

I think Youkilis had his career season in 2008. His value will never be higher. His career year is the average season for Teixeira. Trading Youkilis could help fill another need with high quality player.

 

But the case could be made that replacing Lowell with Teixeira makes the team even better than this.

[a700hitter]

But the case could be made that replacing Lowell with Teixeira makes the team even better than this.

They will get very little in return for Lowell, but they should be able to get high quality for Youk. That's the difference. IMO your team is best served when you trade your players who have maximized their trade value. Conversely, you don't trade a player whose value is low because of injury.

[example1]

They will get very little in return for Lowell' date=' but they should be able to get [b']high quality for Youk[/b]. That's the difference. IMO your team is best served when you trade your players who have maximized their trade value. Conversely, you don't trade a player whose value is low because of injury.

 

But Youk is high quality already. Why trade him for someone like him? It doesn't make sense.

 

The team is best with a lineup that includes both Youkilis and Teixeira. Period. Youkilis finished 3rd in the MVP voting this year. Why the hell would we trade him? His trade value is high because he is a very good player. Don't you watch the guy bat? Last season wasn't luck. He gives good at bats and is a very productive player. He may not reproduce what he did last year, but who would we trade him for that will guarantee something better.

 

I don't see any glaring holes on this team and feel that you are proposing trading Youkilis just to make a trade. Make a trade with Lowell and prospects. Year after year you have been against holding onto prospects in order to win now, to get the best available player. Now we have many prospects and an established MLB talent in Lowell who we could trade to get a player we need.

[Dojji]

How do you come to that conclusion' date=' if the Sox sign Teixeira and get a really good player in return for Youkilis?[/quote']

 

1: Sox haven't signed Teixeira yet.

 

2: Teixeira does nothing for the lost depth at 3B, which is our weakest farm position by a lot.

 

You're pretty much forced to make that player a quality 3B, which is actually a very hard thing to find, harder in its own way than a good catcher..

[TheKilo]

The thing is, they only need to clear one of Youkilis/Lowell to open up a spot for Teixeira. Unless you're getting a potential cornerstone type player, I really find it difficult to justify trading Youkilis because he's a better bet to be more successful than Lowell going forward.

 

What cornerstone players are available at a position the Sox need to fill?

 

Martin? Not available

Mauer? Youkilis just gets you on the phone, plus he's a FA in two years anyway, why not make a run then?

 

I think getting a catcher AND clearing space for Teixeira is a move that can serve the Red Sox very well - better than trading Youkilis unless you can throw some names that would work.

[a700hitter]

1: Sox haven't signed Teixeira yet.

The whole discussion is based on the Red Sox getting Teixeira.

 

2: Teixeira does nothing for the lost depth at 3B, which is our weakest farm position by a lot. Weaker than catcher? The Red Sox minor league catchers stink. The best prospect is Wagner and he is several years away.

[TheKilo]

Their best catching prospect is Exposito, not Wagner.

 

Who are you trading Youkilis for?

[a700hitter]

I think getting a catcher AND clearing space for Teixeira is a move that can serve the Red Sox very well - better than trading Youkilis unless you can throw some names that would work.

So, you don't think offering Youkilis as trade bait wouldn't get the attention of some teams? I think Youkilis would net a really good player in return. This is a 30 HR 115 RBI guy with a .314 avg and a .390 OBP who has a gold glove at 1B and can play 3B, and he is in his prime. He would generate substantial offers. Lowell will get you an inconsistent middle reliever.

 

It's not my job to know what players are available. That's up to Theo and Co. It is, however, fairly obvious that Youk will bring value back, and Lowell will not.

[Dojji]

The whole discussion is based on the Red Sox getting Teixeira.

 

Which is why it is useless.

 

Weaker than catcher? The Red Sox minor league catchers stink. The best prospect is Wagner and he is several years away.

 

We HAVE catchers. We don't have a 3B closer to the majors than Almanzar. Everyone above that are minor league free agents, utilitymen or players with no big league ceiling.

[TheKilo]

So' date=' you don't think offering Youkilis as trade bait wouldn't get the attention of some teams? I think Youkilis would net a really good player in return. This is a 30 HR 115 RBI guy with a .314 avg and a .390 OBP who has a gold glove at 1B and can play 3B, and he is in his prime. He would generate substantial offers. Lowell will get you an inconsistent middle reliever.[/quote']

 

Color me crazy, but this seems to be the kind of player you WANT on your team, no?

 

It's not my job to know what players are available. That's up to Theo and Co. It is, however, fairly obvious that Youk will bring value back, and Lowell will not.

 

I guess it boils down to what you feel he can fetch in a trade and whether or not it is worth it. If you are throwing trade scenarios out, it might behoove you to come up with some actual scenarios.

 

For the sake of argument, I would say the positions of need for the Sox are C and SS. The only players that seem to be available are the Texas catchers, Mike Napoli, and Jeff Clement. I don't see any "cornerstone" type talents there.

 

It doesn't make sense to trade Youkilis if you can't even name someone that would be worth trading for.

[a700hitter]

We HAVE catchers. We don't have a 3B closer to the majors than Almanzar. Everyone above that are minor league free agents, utilitymen or players with no big league ceiling.

Kottaras and Brown stink. They are not major league starting catchers.

[a700hitter]

Color me crazy' date=' but this seems to be the kind of player you WANT on your team, no?[/quote']Sure. Until a better player comes along. Teixeira is that better player.

 

I guess it boils down to what you feel he can fetch in a trade and whether or not it is worth it. If you are throwing trade scenarios out, it might behoove you to come up with some actual scenarios.

 

For the sake of argument, I would say the positions of need for the Sox are C and SS. The only players that seem to be available are the Texas catchers, Mike Napoli, and Jeff Clement. I don't see any "cornerstone" type talents there.

 

It doesn't make sense to trade Youkilis if you can't even name someone that would be worth trading for.

If I had verifiable information about who might be available in return for Youk or Lowell, I'd be working in some teams FO. I don't have a FO job, so I don't know who is available. However, for the right deal anyone is available.

[TheKilo]

Sure. Until a better player comes along. Teixeira is that better player.

 

And Youkilis is better than Lowell, so what's your point?

 

If I had verifiable information about who might be available in return for Youk or Lowell, I'd be working in some teams FO. I don't have a FO job, so I don't know who is available. However, for the right deal anyone is available.

 

I gave you a list of players who could be available that fit a position of need for the Sox. Would you trade Youkilis for any of them?

 

You wouldn't trade Lowell for Salty, who might be the best TX catcher, so I'm going to assume no.

 

Clement comes with the same concerns as Saltalamacchia does...so I can assume you wouldn't trade Youkilis for him.

 

Mike Napoli? Maybe...but is he legit or is he a one year wonder? Is he more than a platoon player? I'd like more of a sure thing if I'm trading a guy who can play both corner IF positions while maintaining an .850 OPS.

 

Stories come out all the time of people who are on the block. The one guy you mentioned, Martin, was the source of rumors before Colletti shot them down a few weeks ago.

 

Even if they are reaches, I'd like to hear a few names.

[a700hitter]

And Youkilis is better than Lowell' date=' so what's your point?[/quote']The title of this thread is "Infield Logjam." They can't keep Lowell, Youkilis and Teixeira. Teixeira is the best of the three without question. Of the other two, Youkilis has the best trade value by far.

 

I gave you a list of players who could be available that fit a position of need for the Sox. Would you trade Youkilis for any of them?

 

You wouldn't trade Lowell for Salty, who might be the best TX catcher, so I'm going to assume no.

 

Clement comes with the same concerns as Saltalamacchia does...so I can assume you wouldn't trade Youkilis for him.

 

Mike Napoli? Maybe...but is he legit or is he a one year wonder? Is he more than a platoon player? I'd like more of a sure thing if I'm trading a guy who can play both corner IF positions while maintaining an .850 OPS.

I wouldn't trade Youkilis for any of these guys unless they came as part of a larger package.

 

Stories come out all the time of people who are on the block. The one guy you mentioned, Martin, was the source of rumors before Colletti shot them down a few weeks ago.

 

Even if they are reaches, I'd like to hear a few names.

I like Martin. I'd take a package of Laird and Michael Young. What about some prospects with either Jhonny Peralta or Miguel Tejada. There are lots of pitchers that could help the staff. Again, I have no idea who is available. I was surprised when the Red Sox got Beckett. I didn't know he was available at that time.

[example1]

I think this discussion is really overshooting the value of a catcher. Would anyone trade last year's Youkilis for in-his-prime Varitek?

 

Tek's VORP:

 

2008: -2.1

2007: 23.4

2006: 2.8

2005: 39.6

2004: 39.1

2003: 32.9

2002: 16.8

 

Look at the VORP lists from those years. Catchers are a fickle bunch. Other than guys like Tek, Mauer, Posada and a few others in their prime, catchers have wild variances in VORP from year to year. It seems best to get your catcher cheaply and hope for a great season, and build up the elite hitters in positions where elite hitters roam: 1b, 3b, LF, RF, DH. If you catch lightning in a bottle then great, but otherwise just settle for a + defensive catcher, or work to get a potential franchise catcher like Tek, Posada, Mauer, etc., through deals for minor league guys.

 

If the Sox get Teixeira they will get a net VORP gain by simply resigning Tek and keeping Youkilis at 3B. Almost any catcher can do what Tek did this year, so either resign him for continuity purposes, or get someone else who is average and they will be fine. Even Salty had a 3.2 VORP last year, and he was a young, part time catcher. They would have a top 5 VORP 3B, top 5 VORP 1B, top 5 VORP 2B, top 5 VORP LF in Bay (combined states he would have ranked 4th in MLB, ahead of Braun), top 10-ish VORP RF, and a top 20 VORP CF. That's a very solid core, that doesn't include a (hopefully) healthy Ortiz at DH.

 

Again, no need to trade Youkilis unless someone comes and absolutely covets him and is willing to give ideal pieces for him. Trading him in order to free up a necessary roster spot held by Lowell would likely reduce his value anyway, since the Sox would be dealing out of necessity not because of a request.

[Dipre]

How do you come to that conclusion' date=' if the Sox sign Teixeira and get a really good player in return for Youkilis?[/quote']

 

Because right now, Youkilis is obviously superior than Lowell, so what's your point?

 

Russell Martin is not gonna hit 25+ HRs or drive in 100+, or be in the top 10 in pitches per, it's much simpler to have a defensive oriented catcher and a above-average 3rd basemen, than a above average catcher, and a coming-from-injury declining 3rd baseman, IMO.

[TheKilo]

The title of this thread is "Infield Logjam." They can't keep Lowell' date=' Youkilis and Teixeira. Teixeira is the best of the three without question. Of the other two, Youkilis has the best trade value by far.[/quote']

 

And keeping Youkilis and Teixeira is the best combination of all of them.

 

I wouldn't trade Youkilis for any of these guys unless they came as part of a larger package.

 

I like Martin. I'd take a package of Laird and Michael Young. What about some prospects with either Jhonny Peralta or Miguel Tejada. There are lots of pitchers that could help the staff. Again, I have no idea who is available. I was surprised when the Red Sox got Beckett. I didn't know he was available at that time.

 

Martin's not available.

 

You're going to trade Youkilis for Jhonny Peralta? Miguel Tejada? Those would be awful deals for the Sox.

 

Michael Young's road OPS is over 100 points less on the road than it is at home. Is he a product of his home ballpark? Trading Kevin Youkilis seems to be an expensive method of finding that answer.

[TheKilo]

Because right now, Youkilis is obviously superior than Lowell, so what's your point?

 

Russell Martin is not gonna hit 25+ HRs or drive in 100+, or be in the top 10 in pitches per, it's much simpler to have a defensive oriented catcher and a above-average 3rd basemen, than a above average catcher, and a coming-from-injury declining 3rd baseman, IMO.

 

That shouldn't be a knock on Martin, though.

 

He's probably the third best catcher in the game after Mauer and McCann.

 

He'd be an incredible pickup. He's just not available.

[a700hitter]

And keeping Youkilis and Teixeira is the best combination of all of them.

You are ignoring the talent differential that would come back in a trade for Youk as compared to a trade for Lowell.

Martin's not available.

I wouldn't know.

 

You're going to trade Youkilis for Jhonny Peralta? Miguel Tejada? Those would be awful deals for the Sox.

In my post I said that I might go for such a trade if they were part of a package.

 

Michael Young's road OPS is over 100 points less on the road than it is at home. Is he a product of his home ballpark? Trading Kevin Youkilis seems to be an expensive method of finding that answer.

I'd want to get Laird with Young. Young is a better SS than the Sox have had since Nomar's prime.

[Dipre]

That shouldn't be a knock on Martin, though.

 

He's probably the third best catcher in the game after Mauer and McCann.

 

He'd be an incredible pickup. He's just not available.

 

I meant it in a way as saying that if i'm gonna send a guy like Youk packing, it better be for an elite offense/defense type of catcher......see: Joe Mauer.

[TheKilo]

I get what you're saying but it's important to look at the production relative to the rest of the league...Mauer will never be a 25/100 guy either.

[TheKilo]

You are ignoring the talent differential that would come back in a trade for Youk as compared to a trade for Lowell.

 

You're the guy who values sure things over prospects or works in progress, right? The fact is out of the three, Youkilis and Teixeira are the most talented and the best bets to be successful going forward...which is why it would be best to try to keep both and trade Lowell.

 

I wouldn't know.

 

I do.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=3683254&name=law_keith

 

When asked if Russell Martin were available, Dodgers GM Ned Colletti said "no."

 

In my post I said that I might go for such a trade if they were part of a package.

 

Except Tejada isn't good anymore.

 

Unless the Guardians want to include Matt LaPorta or Carlos Santana in the deal, Youkilis alone is worth far more than Peralta.

 

I'd want to get Laird with Young. Young is a better SS than the Sox have had since Nomar's prime.

 

Can't really argue with this, but I don't think that the combo of Lowell, Tex, and Young is better than Tex, Youkilis, and Lowrie.

[TheKilo]

Lowell, Lowrie, Lugo, Youkilis.

 

With talks with the Tigers cooling off, Lugo needs to be ditched asap. Pay part of his salary. His stock is not going to go up anytime soon.

 

The Sox need a dangerous 30 HR hitter. Texeia would be a great signing, but would also increase the logjam. Ideally, an outfield that is a a more dangerous hitter than Jason Bay woud be ideal. But the Sox will probably not trade Bay, since he is fairly cheap ($7.5 million) for next year.

 

I would say trade JD Drew, but he has to be viewed as damaged goods, despite is All Star MVP aware and clutch post season hitting.

 

Make no mistake, the Sox have their hands tied in more ways than one. I think they'll sign or trade for a 30 HR hitter, then try to make moves during spring training. Look at it this way, Coco was hurt in Spring Training, but keeping him for the year worked out quite well.

 

Worst post in the thread. Well done, sir.

[jacksonianmarch]

You're the guy who values sure things over prospects or works in progress, right? The fact is out of the three, Youkilis and Teixeira are the most talented and the best bets to be successful going forward...which is why it would be best to try to keep both and trade Lowell.

 

 

 

I do.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=3683254&name=law_keith

 

 

 

 

 

Except Tejada isn't good anymore.

 

Unless the Guardians want to include Matt LaPorta or Carlos Santana in the deal, Youkilis alone is worth far more than Peralta.

 

 

 

Can't really argue with this, but I don't think that the combo of Lowell, Tex, and Young is better than Tex, Youkilis, and Lowrie.

 

 

I agree with a lot of what you said, except the Young part. Young is "Jeterian" at short and will likely be a 3b or a 2b before long.

[a700hitter]

You're the guy who values sure things over prospects or works in progress' date=' right? The fact is out of the three, Youkilis and Teixeira are the most talented and the best bets to be successful going forward...which is why it would be best to try to keep both and trade Lowell.[/quote']I wouldn't be looking for prospects in return for Youkilis. I'd be looking for established talent.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=3683254&name=law_keith

Saying it to a member of the press isn't worth the paper it's printed on. Everyone is available for the right deal. Martin is the kind of player or whom you would make an overwhelming offer. Youkilis would be a good start. Package him with Bucholz or Bowden and Masterson.

[TheKilo]

I wouldn't be looking for prospects in return for Youkilis. I'd be looking for established talent.

 

Miguel Tejada? Jhonny Peralta?

 

Saying it to a member of the press isn't worth the paper it's printed on. Everyone is available for the right deal. Martin is the kind of player or whom you would make an overwhelming offer. Youkilis would be a good start. Package him with Bucholz or Bowden and Masterson.

 

I agree but I just don't see it happening - the Dodgers are probably the best team in the NLW and trading their young catcher seems a bit foolish, given the dearth of catching in the majors.