Manny Being Manipulated - Bill Simmons

[BoSox21]

Bill Simmons wrote a friggin' book of an article at ESPN.com, titled "Manny Being Manipulated". This is gonna generate a ton of discussion and I invite everyone to invest several minutes into reading it.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/story?page=manny

[Paradisecity]

Agree, disagree, either way its a good read.

 

The last paragraph is great.

[MANNYHOF24]

I feel like I can't say anything on this issue with out TheKilo or ORS playing the Manny fanboy card. However, I 100% agree with everything Simmons says here. It makes complete sense, that Boras manipulated the entire situation. Manny was never considered a bad teamate, that alone was the most infuriating part of the whole situation in July. To pin all the blame on Manny not caring was completely absurd. The blame should have been Boras 50% and Manny and the FO 50%.

 

I liked this quote particularly

 

"We just spent the past decade hearing "Manny Being Manny" stories and allowing the man to be portrayed as a savant of sorts, the most simple of athletes, a happy-go-lucky hitter who rolled with the punches, never took himself seriously and wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed. I watched him play for seven and a half years, day in and day out, and never saw anything to make me question that stereotype. Now, I'm expected to believe he was calculating and vindictive this whole time?"

 

This in reference to Manny miss a two games due to his sore knee.

 

 

Also this

 

"Look, I understand how a jerk like Bonds would have been a dreadful teammate: massive ego, bombastic personality, substantial sense of entitlement, painful sense of humor, hogged three lockers, always had 40 media members crowding around him. But what was Manny doing exactly?13 How was Manny's latest "funk" much different than Carlos Delgado seemingly mailing it in until Willie Randolph was fired, then miraculously regaining the ability to smile and hit home runs for Jerry Manuel? For anyone who believes the Manny trade saved the 2008 season -- with the theory being the Sox came together after his departure -- how do we know that wouldn't have happened anyway? Their schedule was significantly easier in August and September.14 Young relievers Justin Masterson and Manny Delcarmen settled into a groove down the stretch, something that would have happened with or without Manny.15 And do you really think a Boras client would sabotage his final two months before free agency? As for the "We couldn't rely on Manny anymore" argument, why could you wager your mortgage on him in September and October? During the winning postseasons in '04 and '07, Manny had 135 plate appearances, reached base 62 times, drove in 27 RBIs, stroked 12 extra-base hits, made it impossible to pitch around Ortiz and worked God-knows-how-many pitch counts. Was that reliable enough for you?"

 

Absoulely true. There is no definitive evidence that we wouldnt be where we are now if we hadnt traded Manny. If we look at past instances, 2005 in particular, things would have blown over, Manny would have been raking in August and septemeber. Don't give me that how many september games did Manny play in 2007 ********. He had a strained oblique injury, 100% acknowledged by the teams medical staff. How long do these injuries take to heal? Oh I dont know 2-4 weeks most of the time. Fact of the matter is, when it mattered Manny played and played damn well. Everyone who turned against Manny this season is completely hypocritical. Where were the Manny hatters when he was hitting bombs last October? Case in point, obviously Manny was upset that he didnt get his contract extended. The FO jumped all over this opportunity to alienate Manny, and turn the media, fans, and even the club house against him.

[ORS]

If Scott Boras went sky diving one weekend and the wind blew him into power lines, electrocuting him to death. I'd think, "Man, what a shame, those utility workers probably had to leave their day off with their families to go clean up that mess". Dead serious. There are some people the world would be a better place without. Boras and his ilk are at the top of that list. No honor, no integrity, no ethics, no thanks.

[YAZMAN]

However' date=' I 100% agree with everything Simmons says here. It makes complete sense, that Boras manipulated the entire situation.[/quote']

 

Who, the guy who announced that A-Rod was opting out of his contract right in the middle of Game 4 of the World Series? No way!

[ORS]

I feel like I can't say anything on this issue with out TheKilo or ORS playing the Manny fanboy card. However' date=' I 100% agree with everything Simmons says here. It makes complete sense, that Boras manipulated the entire situation. Manny was never considered a bad teamate, that alone was the most infuriating part of the whole situation in July.[/quote']

Well, to some degree, if you aren't willing to at least acknowledge that Manny has culpability here just for going along with the plan, even if he was duped, then you probably are a bit of a fanboy. You can see my thoughts about Boras above. He's absolutely got dirt on his hands in this mess. I think Manny happens to deserve some degree of blame for not having a personal ethos that would result in him living up to his end of a deal (his contract).

[BoSox21]

However' date=' I 100% agree with everything Simmons says here.[/quote']

 

Really? Even the part where Simmons says, "After Manny berated the team's 64-year-old team employee and shoved the poor guy to the ground, the team did everything but hire actors to re-enact the incident on www.redsox.com."?

 

And the fact that he keeps comparing Theo leaving in 2005 to the s*** Manny did.

[Mr Crunchy]

Manny deserves blame for putting his hands on the old guy

manny deserves blame for all that nonsense including the ""im getting traded for favre"" s***

The way the media reports it manny was hated here by his teamates

this isnt true now?

no s*** eh.....

The boston press has crucified every single athlete that ever had success in this town with the exception of tom brady and we know that day is reckoning if he doesnt come back 100% next year or the pats dont win regularly any more.

[BSN07]

Good read, Simons usually is tho:D

[MANNYHOF24]

Well' date=' to some degree, if you aren't willing to at least acknowledge that Manny has culpability here just for going along with the plan, even if he was duped, then you probably are a bit of a fanboy. You can see my thoughts about Boras above. He's absolutely got dirt on his hands in this mess. I think Manny happens to deserve some degree of blame for not having a personal ethos that would result in him living up to his end of a deal (his contract).[/quote']

 

The blame should have been Boras 50% and Manny and the FO 50%..

 

Look, I understand that Manny was part of the problem here, but to say that Manny did all of this stuff intentionally to sabatoge the organazation and his teamate just isnt accurate. I fully admit that I feel privledged to get to watch a hitter as taleneted as Manny hit for 7 and a half years, does that make me a fanboy, and please, up until this summer 90% of Red Sox fans always were willining to look the other way at some of the ecentricities, but we knew that he would come through when it really mattered, and he always did.

 

 

Edit- I shouldnt say "just isnt accurate", because obviously who knows what goes on in Manny's head, but its highly doubtful that he would delibrately try to piss off teamates, who in most cases seem like they got along most of the time with Ramirez.

[MANNYHOF24]

Really? Even the part where Simmons says, "After Manny berated the team's 64-year-old team employee and shoved the poor guy to the ground, the team did everything but hire actors to re-enact the incident on www.redsox.com."?

 

And the fact that he keeps comparing Theo leaving in 2005 to the s*** Manny did.

 

Are you disagreeing with that first statement? Dont you find it odd that we heard all about that incident, when normally we dont hear about other club house disturbances?

 

 

As for the Theo thing, I would say the two things arnt really realted since Theo wasnt under contract with the Red Sox. However, Theo was always coming back, and he was a total baby about the entire situation, IMO.

[TheKilo]

I made a thrad last year asking if the Sox should bring Manny back in 2009, and I said no because *gasp* I didn't feel he was worth $20 million.

 

24 - does it bother you a little bit that Manny is busting hios ass every single day in LA, and the fact he played September baseball for the first time in three years?

[Mr Crunchy]

I never wanted him gone,i still dont want him gone

y'all realize how f***ing great he was and still is?

then to read a faggot like gerry callahan call him out and listen to other no talent ass hats discuss him in a negative light infuriates me.

 

he had to go

this i understand but as i said before, if he were in pinstripes hed be signed thru 2011 and this wouldnt even be an issue.

[TheKilo]

^^Absolutely agree.

 

It infuraites me when people say we traded him for $.75 on the dollar. The deal was an excellent deal for both teams.

[MANNYHOF24]

I made a thrad last year asking if the Sox should bring Manny back in 2009, and I said no because *gasp* I didn't feel he was worth $20 million.

 

24 - does it bother you a little bit that Manny is busting hios ass every single day in LA, and the fact he played September baseball for the first time in three years?

 

Sure it bothers me. But the thing that bothers me most is the fact that fans of this team after looking the otherway so many times can just turn on the guy, when there was clear propaganda in the media through the FO against him.

 

As i have said before, last septembers injury was legit. But, because it's Manny people were like, "oh he's faking it" when that wasnt the case. I have no idea how serious his knee injury was in 06. I think it was called patella tendinitious, which acourding to my athelitc trainer at my high school, could be a potentially career ending injury. Granted she wasnt a doctor, and it probably wasnt that severe, but who knows.

[TheKilo]

Ortiz begged Manny to come back in 2006. He didn't.

 

And give me a break with the supposed FO hatchet job. What a joke. Believe it or not, there's a good majority of Red Sox fans who were simply tired of Manny's ********.

[MANNYHOF24]

^^Absolutely agree.

 

It infuraites me when people say we traded him for $.75 on the dollar. The deal was an excellent deal for both teams.

 

I agree it was a good trade, yes. I also think it would be naive to think that, if he had stayed people would have gotten over it. Manny would have played, and the Red Sox would still be in the postseason. Let's not forgot that the main reason the Red Sox played so great is the fact that Lester was becoming a dominant ace, DiceK was rounding into form again, the reemergence of Hideki Okajima, Materson becoming a dominant bullpen guy, and Jed Lowrie becoming an RBI machine. Pedroia? Youk? Do you think those two wouldnt have produced just because they were distracted by Manny? (who probably wouldnt have even been a distraction if he had stayed). I think Manny's offense would have been better than Bay's with Bay's defense and baserunning making the two canceling out. The point- the trade wasnt the main reason why the sox turned things around. Let's also remember than we had lost 6-7, other than that we played really well for the first 4 months.

[MANNYHOF24]

Ortiz begged Manny to come back in 2006. He didn't.

 

And give me a break with the supposed FO hatchet job. What a joke. Believe it or not, there's a good majority of Red Sox fans who were simply tired of Manny's ********.

 

You can have your opinion and I will have mine. I was just willing to put up with Manny's "********" because we were an extremely succesfull team when he was here, and he put up HOF numbers during that stretch. Sue me.

[Mr Crunchy]

kilo

what was this ownership groups 1st act of business when they bought the team?

a lot of people were tired of bobby orr being injured,carl yaztremski leaving winter haven to go golfing and steve grogan playing with a fused spine.

this state elected barney frank after he got caught running a homo brothel and they reelected gerry studds after he got caught sodomizing a 16 year old male page...we elect ted k every 6 years inspite of his sneaker print on that chicks head....We are a fickle bunch but the bottom line is if you produce we'll put up with you.

[BoSox21]

Are you disagreeing with that first statement? Dont you find it odd that we heard all about that incident' date=' when normally we dont hear about other club house disturbances?[/quote']

 

If indeed it was leaked on purpose, then I would find it odd considering there's no way that was the only clubhouse disturbance that was Manny-related

[MANNYHOF24]

If indeed it was leaked on purpose' date=' then I would find it odd considering there's no way that was the only clubhouse disturbance that was Manny-related[/quote']

 

Exactly.

[TheKilo]

You can have your opinion and I will have mine. I was just willing to put up with Manny's "********" because we were an extremely succesfull team when he was here' date=' and he put up HOF numbers during that stretch. Sue me.[/quote']

 

So you admit you are a Manny apologist?

 

Manny was being paid $20 million to play baseball. There's more to baseball than swinging a bat.

 

He chose not to honor his contract.

 

And the FO is to blame?

[BoSox21]

Exactly.

 

so whats your point then? you implied the FO leaked the McCormick story to make Manny look bad, so why wouldnt they leak the other s*** he did to make him look worse?

[MANNYHOF24]

so whats your point then? you implied the FO leaked the McCormick story to make Manny look bad' date=' so why wouldnt they leak the other s*** he did to make him look worse?[/quote']

 

Oh, I dont know. Maybe they realized that they had a pretty good thing going in Ortiz/Manny ever night. I really dont think he had as many instances like this one. Not ones where the it could sway a fanbases opinion about a guy. Plus, even though the FO wanted to unload Manny in the past, the couldnt do anything like this because he was under contract for multiple more years.

[MANNYHOF24]

So you admit you are a Manny apologist?

 

Manny was being paid $20 million to play baseball. There's more to baseball than swinging a bat.

 

He chose not to honor his contract.

 

And the FO is to blame?

 

WE ALL WERE f***ING MANNY APOLOGIST's.

 

 

Chose not to honor his contract? So does is JD not honoring his contract then? Manny's bat and presence in the lineup always far out numbers his deffeciencies in the field. I am not going to continue arguing this, because even though I miss Manny's bat, I will always be a Red Sox fan, over and indivdual player fan. Seriously, if that were the case, I would have stopped rooting for the Red Sox in the summer of 04.

[BoSox21]

Oh' date=' I dont know. Maybe they realized that they had a pretty good thing going in Ortiz/Manny ever night. I really dont think he had as many instances like this one. Not ones where the it could sway a fanbases opinion about a guy. Plus, even though the FO wanted to unload Manny in the past, the couldnt do anything like this because he was under contract for multiple more years.[/quote']

 

Look, either you're saying the FO leaked the McCormick thing to make him look bad or you're saying the FO kept everything in house cause they liked the Ortiz/Manny combo. Pick one.

[Mr Crunchy]

failing to answer the question wont make it go away

you say manny failed to live up to his contract??

i say the front office tried to end their obligations to him as their 1st act of business,they tried to end their obligations to him as their 1st act of f***ing business and thats public record,not innuendo or hearsy but reality.

manny hit .353 in july....while sabatoging his team he hit 350....

 

now the team played 620 ball without manny

540? ball with him but our schedule was easier on the back stretch i feel.

in any case unlike arod,every team manny plays with gets better,everyone that hits around him is a better player and now david ortiz is hitting 260....

the reason the sox havent tanked is their pitching and jason bay playing outstanding in mannys absense.

this team is well balanced and i think this front office builds baseball teams better than the rest of the league....we are lucky because i thought with our offensive woes wed be f***ed without manny..

jason bay made this a lot easier.

[MANNYHOF24]

Look' date=' either you're saying the FO leaked the McCormick thing to make him look bad or you're saying the FO kept everything in house cause they liked the Ortiz/Manny combo. Pick one.[/quote']

 

No, what I said, is that in the past they put up with him because of the production and the fact that if they had done something like that in the past and werent able to trade him the situtation could have gotten reallly, really ugly with years left on his contract. His contract was up this year, and they figured they didnt have as much to loose this time around.

[ARod2212]

I'll take Manny's ******** in a heartbeat. You guys don't realize how great of a player you had.

[VA Sox Fan]

I'll take Manny's ******** in a heartbeat. You guys don't realize how great of a player you had.

 

Yes we do.

 

It was over as soon as he signed with Satan Borass