Why the draft is OVERRATED! A Jacko Special!!!!

[Gom]

This is primarily for idiots that believe that the draft is anything more than a crapshoot. I am trying really hard to educate Jacko, but he refuses to learn. He is obviously a lost cause. This is for the rest of you. This is the Yankees history of free agent picks from 1997. Look at who they got, and compare it to who the team that lost the free agent picked. Any comparison? You decide.

 

In case you need help....the only worthwhile major league player is Joe Blanton. The Yankees got Damon, Giambi, Mussina, et al.

 

I'm dying to see Jacko's response to this one.

 

Compensation picks

2006 DRAFT

• Signed free-agent center fielder Johnny Damon; the Red Sox drafted pitchers Daniel Bard (28th pick) and Kristofer Johnson (40th pick/supplemental).

• Signed free-agent reliever Kyle Farnsworth; the Braves drafted pitcher Cory Rasmus (38th pick/supplemental) and shortstop Robert Fontaine (72nd pick).

 

2005 DRAFT

• Signed free-agent pitcher Carl Pavano; the Marlins drafted pitchers Jacob Marceaux (29th pick) and Sean West (44th pick/supplemental).

• Signed pitcher Jaret Wright; the Braves drafted pitchers Beau Jones (41st pick/supplemental) and Jeffrey Lyman (77th pick).

 

2004 DRAFT

• Signed free-agent reliever Paul Quantrill; the Dodgers drafted third baseman Blake Dewitt (28th pick) and pitcher Justin Orenduff (33rd pick/supplemental).

• Signed free-agent reliever Tom Gordon; the White Sox drafted pitchers Gio Gonzalez (38th pick/supplemental) and Ray Liotta (69th pick).

 

2002 DRAFT

• Signed free-agent first baseman Jason Giambi; the Athletics drafted pitcher Joe Blanton (24th pick) and catcher Jeremy Brown (35th pick/supplemental).

• Signed free-agent reliever Steve Karsay; the Braves drafted shortstop James Greene (65th pick) and pitcher Dan Meyer (34th pick/supplemental).

• Signed free-agent outfielder Rondell White; the Cubs drafted pitcher Chadd Blasko (36th pick/supplemental) and shortstop Matt Craig (96th pick).

 

2001 DRAFT

• Signed free-agent pitcher Mike Mussina; the Orioles drafted second baseman Mike Fontenot (19th pick) and shortstop Bryan Bass (31st pick/supplemental).

 

1997 DRAFT

• Signed free-agent pitcher David Wells; the Orioles drafted outfielders Darnell McDonald (26th pick) and Ntema Ndungidi (36th pick).

• Signed free-agent reliever Mike Stanton; the Rangers drafted third baseman Jason Romano (39th pick/supplemental) and pitcher Chris Tynan (77th pick).

[TheKilo]

I'm confused, what's your point exactly?

[Paradisecity]

Ray Liotta plays for the white sox?

 

Thats kinda ironic given the whole "Field of Dreams" thing...

[Cocos Disciples]

Don't you think the Yankees would have made different picks than the teams that picked for them?

[Gom]

Don't you think the Yankees would have made different picks than the teams that picked for them?

That's not the point. Also, considering the Yankees drafting history, they wouldn't have done as well in getting Blanton. Hindsight is 20/20. However, the draft is and always will be a crapshoot. I'll take the sure thing everytime. There was one hit, Blanton. It's always a risk. The Yankees got Joba when they let Tom Gordon go. The A's got Blanton when they let Giambi go. However, you usually lose nothing of value when you sign free agents.

 

This is also the reason why I believe that if you are going to go after free agents, make them a star player. Why give up draft picks for Type A free agents unless those players are top-notch. For example, Pudge is a Type A....would you put him in the top-tier of catchers?

 

I notice Jacko is absent from this discussion. Maybe he finally sees the light.

[KeepTheFaith1229]

Jury's still out on most of these in the last few years.

[Gom]

Jury's still out on most of these in the last few years.

As if that is going to make a difference. So far, you've got Damon, Giambi, and Mussina vs. Joe Blanton. I'd take any of these at the time of signing than at any point in Blanton's career.

I'm confused' date=' what's your point exactly?[/quote']

Building through the draft is more about luck than anything else. Dealing with a known commodity in the majors is a better way to go. Using both is the best way to go.

 

In 2005, the Red Sox, after winning the World Series the year before, picked up Ellsbury, Hansen, Buchholz and Lowrie. Their first pick was the 23rd pick in the first round. Yet it was a great draft. Luck is a huge factor here. Always will be in the draft.

[Youk Of The Nation]

I would put Fontenot on the plus side with Blanton.

[TheKilo]

Building through the draft is more about luck than anything else. Dealing with a known commodity in the majors is a better way to go. Using both is the best way to go.

 

In 2005, the Red Sox, after winning the World Series the year before, picked up Ellsbury, Hansen, Buchholz and Lowrie. Their first pick was the 23rd pick in the first round. Yet it was a great draft. Luck is a huge factor here. Always will be in the draft.

 

No one is really disputing that...not even Jacko.

[Gom]

I want to hear him say that. Then....

 

I can tell him that since he sucks at signing free agents and can't pull of a major trade due to his guy-love of minor league players, he should be relieved of duty.

[yankee20715]

I want to hear him say that. Then....

 

I can tell him that since he sucks at signing free agents and can't pull of a major trade due to his guy-love of minor league players, he should be relieved of duty.

 

Nice use of the word guy love.

 

But Gio Gonzalez looks like he can become a pretty effective starting pitcher (he is on Oak now)

[KeepTheFaith1229]

As if that is going to make a difference. So far' date=' you've got Damon, Giambi, and Mussina vs. Joe Blanton. I'd take any of these at the time of signing than at any point in Blanton's career.[/quote']

 

Gio Gonzalez and Blake Dewitt seem pretty promising thus far.

 

You've got to take other things into account too...while, obviously you'd take those guys over the unproven guys in a vacuum, are you going to take those guys with limited years left and get sucked into 4+ year deals on guys who will be useless far before the end of it (not saying those guys are), and spend a fortune on them too? It's not as clear-cut as you make it out to be.

[TheKilo]

I want to hear him say that. Then....

 

I can tell him that since he sucks at signing free agents and can't pull of a major trade due to his guy-love of minor league players, he should be relieved of duty.

 

Aside from Santana, what move should the Yankees have pulled the trigger on?

 

I have my questions as to if Santana would succeed as much as he has in the NLE, in the ALE.

 

I think he'd be worth the contract but by no means was it a slam dunk - Hughes could be as good as Santana.

[KeepTheFaith1229]

Hughes could be as good as Santana.

 

Extremely doubtful.

[Gom]

Aside from Santana, what move should the Yankees have pulled the trigger on?

 

I have my questions as to if Santana would succeed as much as he has in the NLE, in the ALE.

 

I think he'd be worth the contract but by no means was it a slam dunk - Hughes could be as good as Santana.

Lilly over Igawa, Pedro over Pavano, Fuentes for Kennedy. Mind you, these are moves I thought of at the time, not after the fact. No one is perfect, I loved the RJ deal, I liked getting Kevin Brown. I'm not saying I would have batted 100%. Hey, this year in fantasy, I kept Beltran and traded Hamilton. s*** happens. However, the Santana deal was/is inexcusable, then not selling Kennedy when he had a chance for Fuentes...plus I heard on ESPN that Cashman is still committed to rebuilding and if he stays he will be conservative in the free agent market.

 

Look, everyone I read says the Yanks are 3-4 years away from catching the Rays, Sox, and Blue Jays in the minor league system. So, a couple of high-salaried deals that run 3-4 years until those guys come to fruition is the way to go.

 

As for Santana, last time I checked, he won a few Cy Youngs in the AL. As for Hughes being as good as Santana, no way in hell. I've got a better chance of dating Carmen Electra than he has of ever getting ONE Cy Young vote in his career.

 

Gio Gonzalez and Blake Dewitt seem pretty promising thus far.

 

You've got to take other things into account too...while, obviously you'd take those guys over the unproven guys in a vacuum, are you going to take those guys with limited years left and get sucked into 4+ year deals on guys who will be useless far before the end of it (not saying those guys are), and spend a fortune on them too? It's not as clear-cut as you make it out to be.

Would you take Gio Gonzales, Blake Dewitt, Fontenot and Blanton for free....or Damon, Mussina, and Giambi for their contracts at the time of signing? How many of those guys made it to the majors as useful contributors?

[TheKilo]

Lilly over Igawa' date=' Pedro over Pavano, Fuentes for Kennedy. [/quote']

 

When was it said you could have had Fuentes for Kennedy?

 

Lilly over Igawa seems like a lateral move, Lilly would not be good in the ALE.

 

Pedro over Pavano? They both spend eternities on the DL. Lateral move, doesn't make you better.

 

Mind you, these are moves I thought of at the time, not after the fact. No one is perfect, I loved the RJ deal, I liked getting Kevin Brown. I'm not saying I would have batted 100%. Hey, this year in fantasy, I kept Beltran and traded Hamilton. s*** happens. However, the Santana deal was/is inexcusable, then not selling Kennedy when he had a chance for Fuentes...plus I heard on ESPN that Cashman is still committed to rebuilding and if he stays he will be conservative in the free agent market.

 

Fuentes for Kennedy seems redundant when you got Marte for basically nothing, and isn't Marte signed for next season?

 

Hughes for the league minimum, when healthy, will provide better value than Santana at $20 million per in the ALE. Just my opinion.

 

And why would anyone say they wanted to be aggressive in free agency? Never start with your best deal in negotiations - never make your intentions known?

 

Look, everyone I read says the Yanks are 3-4 years away from catching the Rays, Sox, and Blue Jays in the minor league system. So, a couple of high-salaried deals that run 3-4 years until those guys come to fruition is the way to go.

 

Depends on who they are. CC and Tex yes, Sheets no.

 

As for Santana, last time I checked, he won a few Cy Youngs in the AL. As for Hughes being as good as Santana, no way in hell. I've got a better chance of dating Carmen Electra than he has of ever getting ONE Cy Young vote in his career.

 

See above post.

[Gom]

When was it said you could have had Fuentes for Kennedy?

http://www.denverpost.com/ci_9964724

Lilly over Igawa seems like a lateral move, Lilly would not be good in the ALE.

In case you forget, Lilly came up in the AL East. He pitched extremely well against Boston, and he wanted to pitch here. Irrespective of how well you'd think he'd have done, are you actually debating he wouldn't have been any better than Igawa? Look at his numbers the last two seasons.

Pedro over Pavano? They both spend eternities on the DL. Lateral move, doesn't make you better.

I'm not perfect in my guesses. I advocated Pedro over Pavano. Pedro gave the Mets one dominant season. That's one more than Pavano has. Pedro logged 480.2 IP for the Mets over 4 years. Pavano logged 142 IP. Lateral move?

Fuentes for Kennedy seems redundant when you got Marte for basically nothing, and isn't Marte signed for next season?

Your point? Imagine having had both. You could then have let Fuentes leave as a free agent and gotten back two free agents as compensation. Would I trade Kennedy for two first round picks right now? Absolutely. Getting Fuentes for the stretch run would be a bonus in and of itself.

Hughes for the league minimum, when healthy, will provide better value than Santana at $20 million per in the ALE. Just my opinion.

When healthy is a big question mark. He has spent more time on the DL than he has on the field, which should be no surprise considering the GM. I'll take a dominant player with a big salary over a non-factor at the league minimum every day. Also remember....the final offer was Kennedy, not Hughes. Twice, Cashman could have changed the season around for Kennedy. For this season alone, he should be TERMINATED.

And why would anyone say they wanted to be aggressive in free agency? Never start with your best deal in negotiations - never make your intentions known?

Good point. Except he is too stupid to be deceptive. He says what he means because that's what all retarded people do.

[TheKilo]

http://www.denverpost.com/ci_9964724

 

In case you forget, Lilly came up in the AL East. He pitched extremely well against Boston, and he wanted to pitch here. Irrespective of how well you'd think he'd have done, are you actually debating he wouldn't have been any better than Igawa? Look at his numbers the last two seasons.

 

Well, where would he have pitched? It's unforunate Wang and Hughes got hurt - but do you really feel a healthy Lilly is better than a healthy Wang or Huighes?

 

I'm not perfect in my guesses. I advocated Pedro over Pavano. Pedro gave the Mets one dominant season. That's one more than Pavano has. Pedro logged 480.2 IP for the Mets over 4 years. Pavano logged 142 IP. Lateral move?

 

480 innings in 4 years? Remove the first season, he's given:

 

132.2

28 (!!!)

103

 

If you think Pedro Martinez makes you a better team the last three seasons, while sporting an ERA over 4 in the NLE, then I don't know what to tell you.

 

Your point? Imagine having had both. You could then have let Fuentes leave as a free agent and gotten back two free agents as compensation. Would I trade Kennedy for two first round picks right now? Absolutely. Getting Fuentes for the stretch run would be a bonus in and of itself.

 

Except, the bullpen was the position of strength for NY this season, and starting pitching was probably their weakest. Why deal one of the few MLB-ready starters you have for 1/2 a season of Fuentes?

 

Plus you have to be wary of an NL reliever making the transition to the AL. See Gagne, Eric.

 

When healthy is a big question mark. He has spent more time on the DL than he has on the field, which should be no surprise considering the GM. I'll take a dominant player with a big salary over a non-factor at the league minimum every day. Also remember....the final offer was Kennedy, not Hughes. Twice, Cashman could have changed the season around for Kennedy. For this season alone, he should be TERMINATED.

 

Good point. Except he is too stupid to be deceptive. He says what he means because that's what all retarded people do.

 

Kennedy and what else, Gom?

[Gom]

Well' date=' where would he have pitched? It's unforunate Wang and Hughes got hurt - but do you really feel a healthy Lilly is better than a healthy Wang or Huighes?[/quote']

You can never have enough pitching. Imagine Joba not getting hurt because he stayed in the pen. Is he better than Hughes? Right now, and for the last two seasons, yes.

480 innings in 4 years? Remove the first season, he's given:

132.2

28 (!!!)

103

 

If you think Pedro Martinez makes you a better team the last three seasons, while sporting an ERA over 4 in the NLE, then I don't know what to tell you.

The question was not whether it was a good move or not. It's a better move than Pavano. I would not be going to the GM Hall of Fame for signing Pedro, but it would have been a better move. Also...he might have made the difference in 2005.

Except, the bullpen was the position of strength for NY this season, and starting pitching was probably their weakest. Why deal one of the few MLB-ready starters you have for 1/2 a season of Fuentes?

Plus you have to be wary of an NL reliever making the transition to the AL. See Gagne, Eric.

You still think a pitcher with poor control and a 88 MPH fastball is major-league ready?

Kennedy and what else' date=' Gom?[/quote']

Read this and enjoy it. Jacko, if you read this, choke on it. Cashman's idiot legacy. I remember reading somewhere that the Twinkies offered Johan to the Yankees for Kennedy, Cabrera, Hilligoss and Marquez. When Cashman turned that down [he should have been fired on the spot], the Twins went to the Red Sox, who also turned down their deal, and the Mets found out they won the lottery.

 

Imagine a "What if" scenario...Hank steps in, fires Cashman, trades for Santana...and then maybe, just maybe, the Yankees could have done better this draft than drafting a player in the first round in Cole and then not signing him, signing a non-prospect in Bleich in the second round, and finding out their 3rd round pick was so damaged, they'd pass on signing him.

 

Regardless...this thread is more about what the Yankees should do instead of Cashman.

[TheKilo]

Can't really argue. Good points.

[jacksonianmarch]

Gom is obsessed with proving a point that wont be proven. He's incapable of reason. Just another bandwagon dumbass who doesnt know that a change has taken place.

 

Hey dumbass, lets take a look at what we got for Gordon.

 

Joba and Kennedy. Not bad eh? Things changed in 2006. You will see. Unfortunately, it takes time and *******s like you cannot understand that.

[TheKilo]

Can you defend the non-move for Santana?

[BSN07]

Yanks are out of the Playoffs, and there fans are starting to eat each other, hahahahaha:D

[Gom]

Gom is obsessed with proving a point that wont be proven. He's incapable of reason. Just another bandwagon dumbass who doesnt know that a change has taken place.

 

Hey dumbass, lets take a look at what we got for Gordon.

 

Joba and Kennedy. Not bad eh? Things changed in 2006. You will see. Unfortunately, it takes time and *******s like you cannot understand that.

Idiots like you point to the exception instead of the rule. The exception is getting a worthwhile player in the compensation draft. If that was not the case, no one would EVER sign a free agent. Yes, sometimes you get lucky and get a Joba for a Gordon, but more often than not, you get outfielders Darnell McDonald and Ntema Ndungidi for David Wells.

 

For every Joba, you will get 20 Garrit Coles, Jeremy Bleichs and CJ Henrys. It's the nature of the beast. The draft is a guess, an educated guess, but a guess nonetheless.

 

The funny thing about you Jacko is that you actually think you're right. Let me say this. Cashman's plan [which was first shown to work with the Yankees with Michael] is the correct one. Building up through the draft while using free agency to supplement what he's doing and to fix holes that the organization is incapable of doing is a great business plan. However, Cashman is incapable of doing it at a high level of success. Unlike Epstein, he surrounds himself with sub-standard people [outside of Gene Michael, is there anyone who can come close to Bill James, Voros McCracken, or Larry Lucchino?] in the Yankee organization, he doesn't listen to anyone outside of his small brain, and he is overmatched in player evaluation. He went into this season with Kennedy and Melky as big contributors. Even I saw that that was a mistake, and I'm a layman fan. You pipe in about his drafting, I point out that this year's draft was a total and unmitigate disaster, and his history of drafting players who are injured. You point out his trading, and I point out his inability to trade for Sabathia [and maybe if he had done a good job of drafting, he would have had someone of value to trade] and his unwillingness to give up garbage for the best pitcher [or one of] in the game in Santana. You point to his talent evaluation in the free agent market, I give you Pavano over Pedro, Wright over Lieber, and Igawa over Lilly. Every time you say something about his virtues, I show you how he is sub-par. It is you that can't see reason.

 

Do I want the Yankees to go out and spend $500 million on free agents every year? Sure. Can they? No. Will they? No. Even the Yankees have their limits, and eventually, the money will run out and no young players will sustain them.

 

The Yankees are in the most enviable of positions. I don't buy the "they draft later, so they can't do well" ********. The Red Sox had their best draft in decades the year after they won the World Series in 2004. Plus, the Yankees don't have as bad a draft position as you think. They can draft, and do draft, players who should never fall to them in the draft because of their willingness to overspend on picks. The same holds true in free agency. The Yankees do well in the international market because it's all about money. I can understand the reluctance of Cashman when you go after the Steve Karsay's and the Jaret Wright's of the world, giving up multiple draft picks in addition to the salaries. The Burnett's and Sabathia's and Teixeira's of baseball are a different story. His inability to accumulate assets is the reason we didn't get CC. His unwillingness to sacrifice his players and his inexperience in determining the quality of what he had is what kept us from getting Johan. Either move could have had us playing in October.

 

The Red Sox are pretty much standing pat this off-season. They have no reason to otherwise. The Yankees may be major players this off-season. I really hope to have an off-season where the reverse is true. The reason why we are going to be major players is because of his inability to trade well, draft well, and sign players well. I hope you agree with me in saying that smaller length contracts at above-market prices is better for this team. This ties up your money in the short term and allows you a few years to develop your own players. I'd rather give a pitcher say, 20 million for 5 years than 15 million for 10 years. You get my point, I hope.

 

His plan is good. He is unqualifed to run it. Please realize this. What would be wrong with getting a GM who follows the same plan but is better at it then what we have?

Can you defend the non-move for Santana?

Sure he can. He can call me "dumb".

 

Who's wiser, the fool or the fool who follows him?

[yankee20715]

He's incapable of reason.

 

He can't be reasoned with. He cant be bargained with. He doesnt feel pity or remorse. And he will absolutely not stop, EVER! Until you see it his way.

[Gom]

He can't be reasoned with. He cant be bargained with. He doesnt feel pity or remorse. And he will absolutely not stop' date=' EVER! Until you see it his way.[/quote']

Uzi 9mm with the laser sighting.