Why missing the playoffs is good for the future

[ARod2212]

http://www.nysun.com/sports/missing-the-playoffs-will-benefit-yankees/84984/

 

I liked the article, it was an interesting look. Hopefully we'll see some of this stuff come to fruition.

 

It's so weird to know the Yankees are done, especially this early. Usually I don't get this feeling until Game 4 against the Angels.

 

I'm still rooting for the Yanks to win and do well, but once October starts, I'm going to adopt Tampa for the playoffs. I can't be upset if they win the whole thing, they're a great story.

[a700hitter]

http://www.nysun.com/sports/missing-the-playoffs-will-benefit-yankees/84984/

 

I liked the article, it was an interesting look. Hopefully we'll see some of this stuff come to fruition.

 

It's so weird to know the Yankees are done, especially this early. Usually I don't get this feeling until Game 4 against the Angels.

 

I'm still rooting for the Yanks to win and do well, but once October starts, I'm going to adopt Tampa for the playoffs. I can't be upset if they win the whole thing, they're a great story.

I thought the article would be about the Yankees going on a spending spree and signing Texiera, Sabbathia, Sheets and Manny. That would be encouraging, and I could see that happening. After the disastrous 2006, the Red Sox FO paid $200 million for 3 players and went on to win a championship.

[Cocos Disciples]

But the championship in 2007 was less about DiceK, Lugo and Drew and more about Okajima, Pedroia and Ellsbury (of the new guys). But I digress. Decent article.

[a700hitter]

But the championship in 2007 was less about DiceK' date=' Lugo and Drew and more about Okajima, Pedroia and Ellsbury (of the new guys). But I digress. Decent article.[/quote']It was about all of them. I don't think they would have won with WMP in RF instead of Drew and Jason Johnson, David Wells and Matt Clement instead of Dice K.

[Cocos Disciples]

It was about all of them. I don't think they would have won with WMP in RF instead of Drew and Jason Johnson' date=' David Wells and Matt Clement instead of Dice K.[/quote']

 

Correct. I guess I didn't really word it right. All of the players in 2007 were necessary for the WS championship ('cept Gagne). The three players I mentioned were more valuable (that's debatable for 2008) and vital for the success of the team. I guess what I'm trying to say is that you said:

After the disastrous 2006, the Red Sox FO paid $200 million for 3 players and went on to win a championship.

, and I would say that rather than going out and buying guys, you need a good mix of acquisitions and homegrown talent, something the 07 team did perfectly.

[a700hitter]

Correct. I guess I didn't really word it right. All of the players in 2007 were necessary for the WS championship ('cept Gagne). The three players I mentioned were more valuable (that's debatable for 2008) and vital for the success of the team. I guess what I'm trying to say is that you said: ' date=' and I would say that rather than going out and buying guys, you need a good mix of acquisitions and homegrown talent, something the 07 team did perfectly.[/quote']I think the Yankees are short on home grown talent.

[Cocos Disciples]

Let's just say, they could be better off.

[ARod2212]

I thought the article would be about the Yankees going on a spending spree and signing Texiera' date=' Sabbathia, Sheets and Manny. That would be encouraging, and I could see that happening. After the disastrous 2006, the Red Sox FO paid $200 million for 3 players and went on to win a championship.[/quote']

That's what I thought when I opened it too, and I thought it was much more interesting than that.

 

I don't think there's any way they don't sign Sabathia this offseason. Texieria is different, although I'd love to get him. I don't know if he wants to play here. I'd take a pass on Sheets because of his injury history. Manny is the most interesting out of all of them. What he'd do to that lineup makes me giggle. I just think he's a better fit in Queens, Minaya (if he still has a job) would pay a s*** ton for him.

[Gom]

This is a non-news story. I don't ever want to see Kennedy EVER pitch in pinstripes again. A terrible pitcher touted by a terrible GM who would have been the centerpiece of a trade for a great pitcher in Santana or an excellent reliever in Fuentes. Before you start thinking that not making the playoffs is a good thing for the Yankees, realize the Yankees pocket anywhere between $3 to $10 million a playoff game at home. Enough to sign a free agent or two, or to sign those "coveted" draft picks. What idiot Yankee fans don't realize is that we've had picks before. They don't amount to much 99% of the time with this regime. Why now all of a sudden are they treated as sure things is beyond me. Until I start to see that percentage change to something a little less than 90%, I don't want to hear s*** about this idiot.

 

Some "gems" to realize.

 

Number of Yankee position players that were drafted that became everyday players since Cashman was hired as GM:

ZERO.

 

Number of pitchers drafted that became everyday starters OR relievers since Cashman was hired as GM: One [potentially, in Joba]

 

Yet there are fools that believe he is doing a good job. If you only got one problem right in 10 years at your job, how long would you last?

 

As for signing Sabathia...I hope the Yankee fans here realize that it's not just the money. If he doesn't want to come to NY, that's his choice. He may decide on less money to go elsewhere. It's not the slamdunk you think it is.

 

If I was Sabathia, if the money is remotely close, no way I sign with the Yankees. Where do I go? Angels. Think about it. You would join a rotation with Santana, Lackey, Saunders, and Escobar. Considering the market for the AL West teams, you are pretty much guaranteed to make the playoffs for the next 5-7 years straight, considering the strength of your team and the payroll disparity with the A's, Rangers, and Mariners. Better weather, better team, better playoff possibilities, more relaxed lifestyle goes up against more money. Wake up. Firing Cashman would be the first step in fixing what even Sabathia and Teixeira can't solve.

 

The Yankees never win again while this idiot is running the team.

[Gom]

Another thing...and sorry for the double post.

 

Dear a700:

 

If you ever use the words "home grown talent" and "Yankees" in the same sentence again, I will kill you. Consider yourself warned.

[yankees228]

Yeah Gom, because the draft is everything...

 

It's not like he's acquired the players necessary to make the playoffs every year prior to this one or anything like that...

[jacksonianmarch]

gom is dumb

[TheKilo]

Wasn't Cano drafted by Cashman? And Wang?

[Cocos Disciples]

Not drafted, but they were signed when Cashman was the GM. He deserves credit for them.

[Gom]

gom is dumb

You're right. If I'd be smart, like you, I'd support a GM who hasn't drafted a single starting position player in his entire career and took over a team that was a World Series winner and led them to a third place finish. I would support a GM who drafts more pitchers that need TJ surgery than ones who don't.

 

I wish I could be smart like Jacko, and realize that Cashman is a godsend. Any intelligent Yankee fan knows that if Cashman went to the Mariners, they would never get above last place in the West.

[ORS]

This is coming from a guy who values prospects much more than Gom, although certainly not as much as Jacko, but Gom makes a really good point there. The relative failure in the draft is striking. Cashman has been the GM since when, 1998? Nothing from the draft has come out of that system and made it in the bigs, not even guys they traded away, since then. The most successful players have been Wang, Cano, Navarro, Juan Rivera, and Melky.....all IFA signees. That's pretty bad.

 

I never really thought he should be fired, but I never gave it much thought either. Now I hope he stays.

[BoSox21]

I dont see what Cashman can hang his hat on in terms of job performance. He won a couple of World Series with other people's teams and has just been foolishly spending money for several years now with an astounding lack of success

[yankees228]

Gom, don't say stuff like he took over a World Series and led them to a third place finish. He took over the team in 1998. The third place finish is going to occur in 2008. Between those years he finished in first place every year up until last year, when he won the wild card.

 

As for the draft, I agree, Cashman has done poorly in the draft. But, in my opinion, he makes up for it in other areas.

 

Gom, I think your opinion is being skewed too much by the events of this year. Yes, he should have made the trade for Santana, but one very poor move (or lack thereof) does not make him a bad GM. After making the postseason every year, albeit with a huge payroll, I think he deserves some respect.

[yankees228]

I dont see what Cashman can hang his hat on in terms of job performance. He won a couple of World Series with other people's teams and has just been foolishly spending money for several years now with an astounding lack of success

 

Astounding lack of success? He has made the playoffs every single year. He has won more than 90 games every single year. He has won the division every single year besides last year. That doesn't sound like an astounding lack of success to me.

 

The playoffs are a crap shoot. A lot of things need to go right for a team to win the World Series. Those things haven't gone right for the Yankees in recent years. He should be judged more on the 162 game regular season than the best out of 5 (or 7) postseason series.

[BoSox21]

Astounding lack of success? He has made the playoffs every single year. He has won more than 90 games every single year. He has won the division every single year besides last year. That doesn't sound like an astounding lack of success to me.

 

With the kind of money he has to work with, quite frankly I'd expect more as a Yankees fan than just making the playoffs.

 

The playoffs are a crap shoot. A lot of things need to go right for a team to win the World Series. Those things haven't gone right for the Yankees in recent years.

 

I'm sorry, the playoffs are NOT a crapshoot. Pitching is what wins in the playoffs and the Yankees haven't had a decent starting rotation for several years now which can be directly linked to the multiple first round flameouts. Point to the last several WS champions:

 

2007 - Red Sox - Beckett was disgusting, Schilling was great, Dice-K and Lester had clutch starts

 

2006 - Cardinals - Marquis, Suppan, etc. came out of nowhere to turn into Cy Young-calibre pitchers

 

2005 - White Sox - Dominant rotation from top to bottom

 

2004 - Red Sox - Schilling was terrific, Pedro was great, Lowe showed up big time

 

2003 - Marlins - Beckett's coming out party

 

He should be judged more on the 162 game regular season than the best out of 5 (or 7) postseason series.

 

Amazing what an 8-year WS drought does to a fanbase's standards

[a700hitter]

Another thing...and sorry for the double post.

 

Dear a700:

 

If you ever use the words "home grown talent" and "Yankees" in the same sentence again, I will kill you. Consider yourself warned.

What was i thinking!

[Mr Crunchy]

gom does have a point when he mentions the yanks have more signees that need t/j surgery than those who dont....thats a page out of the sox old book,that and some mysterious injuries like candle burnings,soft liners off the elbow in the same spot twice and then those who went insane.

in case nobody noticed bronson arroyo is pitching well again for the reds

[CrespoBlows]

With the kind of money he has to work with, quite frankly I'd expect more as a Yankees fan than just making the playoffs.

 

 

 

I'm sorry, the playoffs are NOT a crapshoot. Pitching is what wins in the playoffs and the Yankees haven't had a decent starting rotation for several years now which can be directly linked to the multiple first round flameouts. Point to the last several WS champions:

 

2007 - Red Sox - Beckett was disgusting, Schilling was great, Dice-K and Lester had clutch starts

 

2006 - Cardinals - Marquis, Suppan, etc. came out of nowhere to turn into Cy Young-calibre pitchers

 

2005 - White Sox - Dominant rotation from top to bottom

 

2004 - Red Sox - Schilling was terrific, Pedro was great, Lowe showed up big time

 

2003 - Marlins - Beckett's coming out party

 

 

 

Amazing what an 8-year WS drought does to a fanbase's standards

 

The Cardinals rotation was a bunch of s***, they lucked out big time.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

You get a higher draft pick if you finish with a worse record? I never knew that.

[26 to 6]

Wasn't Cano drafted by Cashman? And Wang?

neither were drafted, both were international Free agents. Only Americans, and i think Canadiens are eligible for the draft, so that's moot. Although the Yankees have always done a great job with international scouting, something they don't get enough credit for.

 

*woops, sorry Coco didn't see that post

[ARod2212]

This is coming from a guy who values prospects much more than Gom, although certainly not as much as Jacko, but Gom makes a really good point there. The relative failure in the draft is striking. Cashman has been the GM since when, 1998? Nothing from the draft has come out of that system and made it in the bigs, not even guys they traded away, since then. The most successful players have been Wang, Cano, Navarro, Juan Rivera, and Melky.....all IFA signees. That's pretty bad.

 

I never really thought he should be fired, but I never gave it much thought either. Now I hope he stays.

The Giambis and Mussinas cut down on first round draft picks for Cashman. Also, as noted hundreds of times before, they didn't reform the scouting department until '06. When Oppenheimer, who is the director of scouting, took over, the Yankees have moved from one of the worst minor league systems to one of the best.

 

This year, Chamberlain has shown he will be a dominant starter, we moved extra pieces in the minor leagues for Marte and Nady, and we've got guys like Aceves and Coke pushing to be major leaguers, and guys like Robertson, Ramirez, and Veras contributing to a cheap and effective bullpen.

 

You want to see what happens when you have no minor league system? Take a look at the Mets after the 7th inning.

 

Cashman is 10 times the GM that Minaya is, and we're going to reap the benefits of it next year. One missed postseason does not ruin his reputation.

[26 to 6]

I dont see what Cashman can hang his hat on in terms of job performance. He won a couple of World Series with other people's teams and has just been foolishly spending money for several years now with an astounding lack of success

You say he's inherited other people's teams and won the World Series with them as if he hasn't been in the organization in some capacity since 1986 when he was an intern in the Minor League and scouting departments. So he's been around and advanced through the ranks and certainly worked under his predecessors, so he did have a small hand in everything leading up to his tenure as GM. And as for the draft, more than one man is responsible for the decisions made on draft day. There's a whole amateur scouting and player development staff who influence what decisions are made, so don't put all the blame on Ca$h, it's not like it was him out there scouting every potential draft pick. And don't lose sight of the fact that there have been quite a few good players drafted, many of whom were key parts of deals in which landed key vets. So keep that in mind Gom, aka Mr. "I'd trade a prospect for a veteran anyday," and don't underestimate the importance of trading chips. Even more reason why Cashman shouldn't take all the heat for everything that's occured throughout his tenure is the atypical circumstances under which he's had to work, with the strong influence of the ownership group and their highly trusted Tampa faction. Not until 2005, when he negotiated for more control has he really had complete authority of baseball operations. Yes, ideally he would have came out made a big impact after gaining his increased power, but with it he decided to take a stand and really focus on youth and the rejunivation of the farm system and placed an added emphasis on inexpensive youth, which is something that takes time. Yes granted the Yankees have a huge payroll and ton of talent there really shouldnt be time or need for a "youth movement," but that really wasn't the intention, it's just that the infusion of the youth with the strong veteran presence hasn't worked out so quickly as intended and produced the optimum results that were expected. And as for the 2008 Yankees I really can't blame Cashman too much when you consider the biggest reason the Yankees will more than likely be missing the playoffs for the first time since 1993 is the inconsistent offense, even more so than the injuries, the struggles of the rotation early on, and decision to pass on Santana. And the lack of consistent hitting really isn't Cashman's fault when you look at the roster he's assembled and the lineup that goes out onto the field every night.

 

With all of that being said, I don't lean strongly one way or the other as to what his future role in the organization should be. I'm not against bringing him back one bit, while I would also certainly entertain the possibility of someone else taking over. That's a decision the Yankee hierarchy is going to have to make, and thankfully not me. We're just gonna have to wait and see. But Gom, I definitely agree with Y228 that your opinion of Cashman definitely seems to be very much influenced on this year alone. He's always tried to push the right buttons and make the right moves. Always aggressive and trying to improve. His understandably conservative approach this past year seems to have really struck a chord with you.

[yankees228]

So basically you're saying that those short postseason series display how good a certain team is more than a 162 game regular season?

 

The Yankees rotation in 2003 was Roger Clemens, Andy Pettitte, Mike Mussina, and David Wells with Mariano Rivera as their closer. That's pretty good if you ask me.

 

The Oakland A's pitching rotation in 2001 and 2002 had Tim Hudson, Mark Mulder, and Barry Zito. Not too bad. They didn't make it out of the first round.

 

Yes, all of the recent world series winners, with the exception of the Angels had very good pitching during the postseason. However, you proved my point when you said guys on the Cardinals rotation transformed into really good pitchers. It's luck. Those guys aren't that good, they just had one good month.

 

Jeff Weaver

Anthony Reyes

Jose Contreras

Jon Garland

Freddy Garcia

Carl Pavano

 

These are all guys that vastly exceeding expectations when October rolled around. That's why it's a crapshoot.

 

EDIT: And BoSox, do a little research and tell me how many games Jason Marquis started for the St. Louis Cardinals in the 2006 playoffs.

[yankees228]

The Cardinals rotation was a bunch of s***' date=' they lucked out big time.[/quote']

 

Oh common, we all knew that Jeff Weaver was destined for October greatness. Or at least BoSox21 and Walt Jockety did...

[BoSox21]

it's such a copout for you to say that once you get in the playoffs, it's basically a lottery as to who wins. Regardless of the track record of Weaver, Suppan, etc., those guys showed up in the playoffs

 

maybe Cashman would give his team a better shot in the postseason if he didn't sign a guy who hits like a pitcher in the playoffs to a decade-long quarter-billion dollar contract