Varitek's struggles

[yeszir]

This came up a lot during last night's game thread, despite his ironic go ahead heroics. What do we do about 'Tek?

 

[table=Tek Stats]Timeframe|Average|HR|RBI|OBP|SLG

Season|.231|7|25|.306|.392

June|.123|1|4|.180|.193[/table]

 

There was talk about the possibility of a trade to upgrade at C:

No' date=' trade him for one of the Texas catching prospects - Teargarden (sp?)[/quote']

Bowden's name was brought up. Thoughts?

[ksushi]

A trade for either Salty or Teagarden will take more than just Bowden. It's an interesting idea and I could see it happening in the offseason, if we were willing to part with Bowden and Masterson. I think it will take about that much to pry one of them free.

 

I don't think there is anything we can do this season, obviously. But heading into this offseason, unless the perfect deal falls into our lap, I think we'll end up with Tek behind the plate again next season and probably the season after that. The catcher position is thin all across baseball.

[yeszir]

The catcher position is thin all across baseball.

 

Evidence: my fantasy team, where I've all but given up on the catcher position.

[Sox Fan on Cape]

Tek's greatest value is no longer in his bat or defensive ability, it's in his preparation and game calling.

[rgmfick]

Vtek is a key to the team, to be judged much more on his leadership to the team and management of the pitchers. The only other catcher the Sox have had who was so valuable to the team is Pudge Fisk. If the Sox had not lost Pudge to the White Sox due to Heywood Sullivan's Contract Late Mailing faux pas, I believe the Sox would have won at least 1 World Series. Vtek is that valuable to the Sox and cannot be measured by a batting average or stats. Before the Sox trade for a catcher like Salty who has not even made it to the Texas Rangers, Gerald Laird is still the Ranger's catcher, the Sox need to take a further serious look at Wagner who is with the AA Portland Sea Dogs and probably has the highest upside in the system and Kottaras who might also hit much better at the ML level than in AAA. The Red Sox will have some major decisions regarding signing Vtek for what he and Scott Boras are going to want and regarding whether to exercise year one on Manny's Option.

[BoSox21]

There was talk about the possibility of a trade to upgrade at C:

 

In the context of catcher, define upgrade.

 

It's become a clich? to say that his intangibles make him invaluable but when you see the success of the pitching staff, a good chunk of that success has to be attributed to Varitek and his preperation and game-calling ability. To me, it's worth accepting that you'll get about a .240-.250 average from him when you think of everything else he offers just like I thought it was worth it to hold on to Alex Gonzalez for his defensive ability.

[ksushi]

Tek's greatest value is no longer in his bat or defensive ability' date=' it's in his preparation and game calling.[/quote']

 

Which I would argue makes him about as valuable as any well-coached and dilligent minor leaguer. Not that we have one, but I just don't think he brings anything unique to the table.

[yeszir]

And if we do sign some young, offensive catcher as an eventual replacement (or groom him from the minors) while keeping Tek, Tek's presence and wisdom would certainly leave a big mark on the kid.

[Sox Fan on Cape]

Which I would argue makes him about as valuable as any well-coached and dilligent minor leaguer. Not that we have one' date=' but I just don't think he brings anything unique to the table.[/quote']

 

That may be, but you might check their record when Tek is out for a prolonged period of time.

[Thumper]

I have to go with SFOC with this. Varitek's valute comes from his game calling, preperation, and intelligence.

 

But as others have said, his offense isn't getting any better, I don't think it's horrible though.

 

So I'm torn on the situation.

 

I think the question is would it be worth trading off the experience and intelligence for another bat? Sure you could teach any catcher to call a game, work with pitchers, etc. But I think Varitek goes beyond what's asked of and I think that helps the team a lot.

[VA Sox Fan]

Love ya and all Almighty Moderator (yeszir, wink wink, LOL) but I am tired tired tired of this subject as I'm a Tek "Homer".

 

WAY to important behind the plate, in the clubhouse, as the Captain,etc......IMO.

 

I also think he will be re-signed and end his career in a Red Sox uniform.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

We have any prospects worth a damn? I don't think we have anything to contribute this season but whats the story with Luis Exposito, Mark Wagner, Dusty Brown, and George Kottaras?? Anything of them have a chance to amount to something??

 

I think we should be looking for a catcher....not necessarily a prospect but someone who is walking into their prime years. Perhaps hasn't exploded yet but could, like Ryan Doumit who was brought up last night

[ksushi]

That may be' date=' but you might check their record when Tek is out for a prolonged period of time.[/quote']

 

There are a lot of things that cause a team to lose, and a huge difference in a major league hitter and a minor league back up. Plus, our back ups in the past have been absolutely horrendous and I'm not claiming there is a viable alternative or anything, but I do think there are better catchers and better attributes in a catcher other than game calling ability and ability to read and comprehend a scouting report.

[CrespoBlows]

That may be' date=' but you might check their record when Tek is out for a prolonged period of time.[/quote']

 

Yeah, but that's when Kevin Jarvis and Jason Johnson were regulars in our rotation.

 

BTW, the upgrade at catcher wouldn't knock Varitek off of the team. He'd settle into a backup role.

[jacksonianmarch]

I said before that I think Vtek is a good platoon option. But his days of being a useful #1 catcher are passing. His bat speed is abysmal and he is easy to figure out at this point. That isnt anything against him, hell, he's old and he plays a demanding position. To be honest with you, Cash has been playing better D than Vtek IMO and doesnt call a bad game himself. Even if the sox get a mid level catcher this offseason or bring up Kottaras next yr, they wont have to pay Tek for his services. Maybe platoon Kottaras and Cash for a little while.

[Jayhawk Bill]

I said before that I think Vtek is a good platoon option. But his days of being a useful #1 catcher are passing. His bat speed is abysmal and he is easy to figure out at this point. That isnt anything against him' date=' hell, he's old and he plays a demanding position. To be honest with you, Cash has been playing better D than Vtek IMO and doesnt call a bad game himself. Even if the sox get a mid level catcher this offseason or bring up Kottaras next yr, they wont have to pay Tek for his services. Maybe platoon Kottaras and Cash for a little while.[/quote']

 

Note that Satan has advised that Boston let go of Jason Varitek.

[Jayhawk Bill]

I don't think there is anything we can do this season' date=' obviously. But heading into this offseason, unless the perfect deal falls into our lap, I think we'll end up with Tek behind the plate again next season and probably the season after that. The catcher position is thin all across baseball.[/quote']

 

Yeah...

 

I'm a fan of Jason Varitek. I probably think less of "intangibles" and "game calling" than any other Talksox poster, but I still grow concerned at rumors that Boston might let Tek go to another team.

 

But to put this all into perspective, let's check Jason Varitek's VORP.

 

VORP: Value Over Replacement Player (The approximate amount by which a player is better than an average AAA call-up at his position, using hitting metrics)

 

Jason Varitek's 2008 VORP: 1.0 runs

 

Jason Varitek's rank among catchers from the 14 AL Teams: 16th, four places behind Kelly Shoppach

 

Jason Varitek's rank among 2008 Boston Red Sox players: tied for 13th with Chris Carter, who has had three plate appearances

 

***

 

I still support Jason Varitek. The metrics, however, suggest that there may be a problem.

[Mr Crunchy]

2 kids under 25 threw no hitters in less than 50 games of baseball under teks game calling.

he got the game winner the other nite against a relief pitcher who had allowed a paltry .200 batting avg against...he hits sporatically and usually it matters when he does.

he will hit .240 with 10-15 hrs and 45-60 rbi

we can hide his bat in our lineup if all the other cylinders are clicking

all the other cylinders arent clicking which exposes teks offensive shortcomings more than usual..

1 game for all the marbles i take him over anyone in the game.

[BoSox21]

I think a team that features an ideal lineup of Ellsbury, Pedroia, Papi, Manny, Drew, Lowell and Youkilis at the top can live with the offensive shortcomings Varitek has at this point of his career

[Jayhawk Bill]

I think a team that features an ideal lineup of Ellsbury' date=' Pedroia, Papi, Manny, Drew, Lowell and Youkilis at the top can live with the offensive shortcomings Varitek has at this point of his career[/quote']

 

Yes, but...

 

1) Lineup holes hurt high-OBP long-sequence offenses more than SLG-driven power offenses;

 

2) Runs matter--one can't just say, "Oh, we'll score enough" even with the 2003 Red Sox, let alone the 2008 Red Sox;

 

3) Big Papi isn't hitting too well in the month of June; and

 

4) Manny isn't being Manny--recently, Manny isn't even being Youk or JD.

 

Boston doesn't need Tek to hit 15-20 home runs, but they do need him to post an OBP of .330 or higher. He's not doing that--thus far, he's only 1.7 runs better than Kevin Cash at the plate this season.

[BoSox21]

look, as recently as 11 days ago, Varitek was batting .254 with a .330 OBP which is a lot closer to his career numbers than his current numbers are so while he isn't an offensive powerhouse, he also isn't as bad as his current numbers suggest and just like Lowell, Pedroia, Drew, Papi, Manny and Youkilis, he also isn't immune to slumps

 

its unfair to Varitek to suggest that just cause he's in a slump, we need to go to a platoon of Kevin Cash and George Kottaras

 

and in the end, through all this, the Sox are third in baseball in runs scored, behind Texas, who have no pitching and Chicago, arguably the best team in baseball

[Jayhawk Bill]

look, as recently as 11 days ago, Varitek was batting .254 with a .330 OBP which is a lot closer to his career numbers than his current numbers are so while he isn't an offensive powerhouse, he also isn't as bad as his current numbers suggest and just like Lowell, Pedroia, Drew, Papi, Manny and Youkilis, he also isn't immune to slumps

 

its unfair to Varitek to suggest that just cause he's in a slump, we need to go to a platoon of Kevin Cash and George Kottaras

 

and in the end, through all this, the Sox are third in baseball in runs scored, behind Texas, who have no pitching and Chicago, arguably the best team in baseball

 

1) Yep, it might be a slump. Hope that you're right--but Tek is known for precipitous dropoffs each season, and this looks to me like a September dropoff in June, and that would be bad.

 

2) I didn't suggest a platoon of Cash and Kottaras--Jacko did.

 

3) Boston LEADS MLB in third-order runs. Texas and the Cubs play in weaker divisions--Boston has the best offense in baseball.

 

But unless Tek can hit a little better--that .330 OBP being a benchmark for me--it's tough to justify keeping him around for "intangible" contributions with Kottaras looking ready for The Show. :dunno:

[BoSox21]

1) Yep, it might be a slump. Hope that you're right--but Tek is known for precipitous dropoffs each season, and this looks to me like a September dropoff in June, and that would be bad.

 

2) I didn't suggest a platoon of Cash and Kottaras--Jacko did.

 

3) Boston LEADS MLB in third-order runs. Texas and the Cubs play in weaker divisions--Boston has the best offense in baseball.

 

But unless Tek can hit a little better--that .330 OBP being a benchmark for me--it's tough to justify keeping him around for "intangible" contributions with Kottaras looking ready for The Show. :dunno:

 

1) People thought he was done after his injury in '06 and his .238 batting average. He bounced back a bit last season hitting .255 with a nice .367 OBP so for now, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

 

2) I know, I'm just responding to all sentiments in this thread as well as yours.

 

3) I agree, it's hard to complain about the offense as a whole this year.

 

I really don't see how Kottaras is looking ready for the bigs with a .228 average. Granted he has a nice OBP, but c'mon, .228?!

[das11209]

Kottaras is tearing up in AAA - the least he deserve is a September call-up. I don't know if any good catcher is available outside the organization. By the way - Salty has sucked so far- looks like the braves sold high there.

 

Looking at Theo - I think it is safe to say that he signs players not based on past performance - but based on present and future performance. He has let a few favourite Sox go over the years. I am confident that Tek will not be re-signed. Considering how beloved Tek is in RSN and this board - I am surprised that we all agree he pretty much is aweful in offense. OK - also the fact he throws like my grandma to second base . I have never got the intangible part of Tek - but that's just me. I think if we get a good offensive catcher - I can live without those intangibles. Yeah I realize he has caught most no hitters and the Sox has tanked twice in past without him. And that means that he is invaluable to this team at present and in future ? I will question some of his pitches in Pap's recent struggle - and I do not think I am all alone. Do you guys see a hugh difference of game calling between Cash and Tek? Do major league pitchers need to be babysit by their catchers? I don't know the answers to those questions.

[CrespoBlows]

Does anyone remember why the Giants released A.J Pierzynski?

 

He was considered a horrible defensive catcher, who didn't study game film, and help his pitchers prepare.

 

I guess I'm curious how the f*** the White Sox finished first in ERA with that horrible influence behind the plate in 2005.

[CrespoBlows]

 

I really don't see how Kottaras is looking ready for the bigs with a .228 average. Granted he has a nice OBP, but c'mon, .228?!

 

Yeah, but he's been pretty unlucky this year.

 

Season Team      BB% K% BB/K OBP SLG OPS ISO BABIP RC RC/27 
2006 Padres (AA) 16.3 % 26.5 % 0.74 .394 .451 .845 .175 .348 45 6.55 
2006 Padres (AAA) 9.2 % 25.2 % 0.40 .282 .361 .644 .151 .264 12 3.49 
2007 Red Sox (AAA) 9.8 % 24.1 % 0.45 .316 .408 .724 .167 .290 38 4.55 
2008 Red Sox (AAA) 16.0 % 28.2 % 0.68 .352 .440 .792 .212 [b].258[/b] 37 5.41 

 

I think his batting average will settle around .250 to .260 area.

[das11209]

Yeah, but he's been pretty unlucky this year.

 

Season Team      BB% K% BB/K OBP SLG OPS ISO BABIP RC RC/27 
2006 Padres (AA) 16.3 % 26.5 % 0.74 .394 .451 .845 .175 .348 45 6.55 
2006 Padres (AAA) 9.2 % 25.2 % 0.40 .282 .361 .644 .151 .264 12 3.49 
2007 Red Sox (AAA) 9.8 % 24.1 % 0.45 .316 .408 .724 .167 .290 38 4.55 
2008 Red Sox (AAA) 16.0 % 28.2 % 0.68 .352 .440 .792 .212 [b].258[/b] 37 5.41 

 

I think his batting average will settle around .250 to .260 area.

 

I believe his average and HR both increased this month - hope the trend continues.

[Gom]

Varitek is finished as a viable offensive option. He has been since the end of 2005. As Yankee fans, we are seeing the decline of Jeter. It happens to all players.

 

Anyone who thinks Varitek is, or could be, a good hitter from this point on, is clueless.

[a700hitter]

Varitek is finished as a viable offensive option. He has been since the end of 2005. As Yankee fans, we are seeing the decline of Jeter. It happens to all players.

 

Anyone who thinks Varitek is, or could be, a good hitter from this point on, is clueless.

We just need him to hit .250 with 12-15 HRs.

[TrentonSox]

He better not make the ALSG