Bullpen Concerns

[Jayhawk Bill]

Is what Nelson did right? No. Did he have to go to court for his actions? Yes.

 

Did the Yankees take any action against either Nelson or Garcia for their committing battery against Williams while they were under contract? No. Did you allege that the Yankees would never tolerate such action? Yes.

 

Were you correct? No.

 

I just looked at some articles, and from what I've gathered Nelson asked Williams to leave the bullpen if he was gonna be cheering, but he refused. What happened from there, idk. But it's not fair to blame that whole situation on Nelson. Williamscould have been saying ANYTHING.

 

So Williams should have, in your estimation, if your side of the story is true*, left his work station and lost his job?

 

He should have kept his mouth shut, or gone somewhere else and cheered.

 

Got it--to keep Yankees players happy, people unaffliated with the Yankees should quit their jobs, and they should be beat up if they don't do what Yankees players say.

 

But as for Garcia, if it was a spur of the moment reaction and he saw his teammate in an altercation perhaps he didnt stop to observe the reactions of the other 24 players on the team. He may have rushed his judgement, but I doubt his thinking was "og look, Nelly's beatign some dude up, let me go jump in and help him." That's ridiculous. The only other explanation would be that he was coming to Nelson's defense.

 

Or that Garcia thought that it would be fun to beat up a man cowering on the ground in fear.

 

It's not McCormick's fault.

 

But you post, repeatedly, that it was Williams's fault. As others have posted, you have a clear ethical double standard.

 

 

 

* By the way, did your articles mention that there were police witnesses who were ready and willing to testify that it was an unprovoked attack? From the Canadian media:

 

Paul Williams claims the two players assaulted him during a melee in the bullpen on Oct. 11 during Game 3 of the American League Championship Series between the Boston Red Sox and Yankees.

 

Boston police officers in the bullpen supported Williams' side of the story.

[soxfan17881]

he couldnt just back away from the old man with metal hips and who wobbles like a weeble?

 

Perhaps he could have thrown a broken bat at him?

http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg189/rassmuss1/clemensisadouchebag.jpg

 

Well Varitek's a bitch. Plain and simple. And Pedro's crazy. That explains those two incidents.

 

I love it when the arguments get cerebral like this.

 

Seriously. This is one of the craziest arguments I've ever witnessed.

 

On a lighter note, have some wall paper, guys. I was storing this up for later in the season (when and if the Yankers were back on the radar.) Now seems like a good time to bring it out, though. You can click on it for the full size version.

http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg189/rassmuss1/blog/YanksSuck-1.jpg

[26 to 6]

Did the Yankees take any action against either Nelson or Garcia for their committing battery against Williams while they were under contract? No. Did you allege that the Yankees would never tolerate such action? Yes.

 

Were you correct? No.

 

 

 

So Williams should have, in your estimation, if your side of the story is true*, left his work station and lost his job?

 

 

 

Got it--to keep Yankees players happy, people unaffliated with the Yankees should quit their jobs, and they should be beat up if they don't do what Yankees players say.

 

 

 

Or that Garcia thought that it would be fun to beat up a man cowering on the ground in fear.

 

 

 

But you post, repeatedly, that it was Williams's fault. As others have posted, you have a clear ethical double standard.

 

 

 

* By the way, did your articles mention that there were police witnesses who were ready and willing to testify that it was an unprovoked attack? From the Canadian media:

 

Bil. get your head on straight. First,the Manny incident and the Nelson/Garcia incidents are very different.

 

So Williams should have, in your estimation, if your side of the story is true*, left his work station and lost his job?

No, I never said he should have left his work station and lost his job, if that even was his work station. I said he should keep his mouth shut or go somewhere else to cheer. The job description for groundskeepers does not include cheering and antagonizing opposing players.

 

Got it--to keep Yankees players happy, people unaffliated with the Yankees should quit their jobs, and they should be beat up if they don't do what Yankees players say.

See above. Where did I ever say he should quit his job?

 

But you post, repeatedly, that it was Williams's fault. As others have posted, you have a clear ethical double standard.

The McCormick and Williams scenarios are very different. One involves a part-time club employee acting unprofessionally by being antagonistic and loudly cheering for the home team in the visitors bulpen. I'm not saying that because it's the Yankee bullpen cheering for the Sox shouldn't be allowed, but if he wants to cheer he should have bought a ticket. The other involves an important member of the organization not being able to fulfill a hefty, last-minute request by a spoiled player, who plays for the SAME TEAM that employs him, who eventually shoved him to the ground. And he thinks he can get away with just a simple apology. Sorry doesnt, and shouldnt fix everything. And this is one of those instances where sorry shouldn't be enough.

 

As for your Canadian news excerpt..gee. How reliable. Considering Canada and neither of it's two MLB teams at the time had anything to do with this series, you should have probably found something from a news outlet here in the states. Preferably New York or New England related.

[Jayhawk Bill]

Bil. get your head on straight.

 

Thank you for the cogent response.

 

BTW, you seem to have missed the point in my citing a neutral, Canadian government source regarding the incident, and you asked for local media:

 

While performing a paid detail at Fenway Park, Det. William Dunn, assigned to the Red Sox bullpen, and Officer Michael Pankievich assigned to the Yankees bullpen. Approximately 7:10 p.m., between the top and the bottom of the 9th inning, while standing outside of the bullpens and facing the crowd (and also bullpen occupants), Det. Dunn and Officer Pankievich observed a pitcher (Jeff Nelson) from the Yankees, approach the victim (who was standing in the corner of the bullpen). At this time (what appeared to be) a verbal confrontation ensued between the victim and Jeff Nelson. Officer Pankievich proceeded to that location in an attempt to separate the parties. While enroute, Jeff Nelson was observed pushing/grabbing the victim in the chest area at which time both parties fell to the ground where Jeff Nelson began punching and flaring his legs at the victim. At that point numerous other members of the Yankees bullpen jumped on the victim (some striking the victim and others attempting to break up the melee). The right fielder (Karim Garcia) from the Yankees was then observed jumping the right field wall, into the bullpen and begin striking down at the victim with his left hand. With the aid of other officers and Red Sox security staff, the parties were separated ending the incident. Further investigation revealed victim sustained numerous injuries, transported to Beth Israel Hospital and treated for injuries to his head, mouth and body (including what appeared to be numerous cleat marks). D899 Dets. Tierney and Gill responded to the Beth Israel Hospital where they further interviewed the victim and photographed his injuries. Lt. Kelly McCormick of Area B-3 forwarded witness information to Det. Dunn and P.O. Pankievich regarding their eyewitness account of the incident where they stated they observed member(s) of the NY Yankees baseball team initiate an unprovoked attack upon the victim. Summonses to be sought in Roxbury District Court for assault and battery on both Jeff Nelson and Karim Garcia of the Yankees baseball organization.

 

Bold added.

 

Nelson approached Williams at his assigned work station, attacked him without provocation, the bullpen joined in, Garcia jumped the fence, the entire group both punched and kicked Williams until security and police pulled them off, and Williams had to be hospitalized.

 

Later that night, Yankees president Randy Levine accused the Red Sox security force of being "lawless" in allowing the bullpen incident. "If that was our employee, he'd be gone, or in jail," he said.

 

Yeah, classy organization, 26 to 6. The entire bullpen and the right fielder gang up on a groundskeeper, send him to the hospital, and the official spokesperson for the Yankees, their team president, blames the victim.

[rician blast]

I sort of have this sneaking suspicion that those who get outraged over the lack of punishment were probably the kind of kids that always wanted to get other kids on trouble..you know:

 

"Danny pulled my hair" "Billy hit me with a stick" "Joey's making faces at me"

 

I simply do not understand the degree to which folks care how the FO handles this thing. The act speaks for itself and personally I'm experiencing a loss of respect for Manny...but I really don't need to see some sort of punishment to be appeased.

[ksushi]

No, I never said he should have left his work station and lost his job, if that even was his work station. I said he should keep his mouth shut or go somewhere else to cheer. The job description for groundskeepers does not include cheering and antagonizing opposing players.

 

Really? Because my roommate is a grounds keeper at fenway. He told me that they are very explicit in encouraging all employees to cheer and add the atmosphere of the park. As a visiting player, if you don't know in advance that the entire venue will be rooting against you, antagonizing you and generally attempting to make you uncomfortable, then you are either very ill-equipped to handle professional athletics, or have never belonged to a highly competitive travel team of any kind.

 

The athlete has no right to ask the employee to leave. Period. What happened is absolutely pathetic on the part of the players.

 

To try and say that because Williams also went to court that he shares in some of the guilt is a little ridiculous. I'll be honest, I am not incredibly familiar with this incident, but I did some digging on the associated press website and got a little bit of information. I just think you're being a little ridiculous and aren't really taking everything into account.

 

From AP.com:

Karim Garcia is due to go on trial Tuesday, Oct. 26, in a case stemming from a 2003 brawl involving Garcia and Texas Rangers RP Jeff Nelson, then both with the New York Yankees, with Paul Williams, a Fenway Park groundskeeper, during the 2003 ALCS. Garcia will stand trial on assault and battery charges, as Williams has sued both players for more than $33,000 for medical bills, lost wages and his sense of smell. According to Williams, the brawl left him with a deviated septum, broken teeth, a neck injury and cleat marks on his body.

 

Yes, williams was present in court. No, I do not think he did anything that could have possibly provoked the brutal beating he took. Karim Garcia has always been a hot head, going back to his days in the cleveland system. He doesn't deserve to be playing professional sports. He is a total *******.

 

 

 

but... about the manny thing.

 

Why are people pining to have this handled publicly? Do you really need the Red Sox to make his sanctions public? Two grown men can't just deal with an altercation behind closed doors and move on? This never should have been leaked to the press, and the people out there who want Manny to be punished are ignorant to the kind of things that actually go on in a locker room on a regular basis. This kind of scuffle is definitely not rare, especially with the team playing like they are, especially with the player in question struggling. He IS being treated like everyone else! They're letting him handle it behind closed doors where this whole thing should have unfolded to begin with.

[yeszir]

Really? Because my roommate is a grounds keeper at fenway. He told me that they are very explicit in encouraging all employees to cheer and add the atmosphere of the park. As a visiting player, if you don't know in advance that the entire venue will be rooting against you, antagonizing you and generally attempting to make you uncomfortable, then you are either very ill-equipped to handle professional athletics, or have never belonged to a highly competitive travel team of any kind.

Uh oh, here comes the "The Red Sox are a classless organization" comment.

[Jayhawk Bill]

ksushi, thank you for clarifying my point regarding Williams: he was at his assigned place of duty, doing his job, when he was attacked.

 

To try and say that because Williams also went to court that he shares in some of the guilt is a little ridiculous.

 

Well, yes, but...

 

Charges were dropped last week against Paul Williams, 25, of Derry, N.H., a part-time groundskeeper who got into the brawl with the two players. Suffolk District Attorney Daniel Conley said a review found there wasn't enough evidence to back up a cross-complaint brought by Nelson against Williams, who teaches special education at a middle school in New Hampshire.

 

Jeff Nelson accused Williams of attacking him. The entire attack was videotaped; Williams wasn't responsible.

 

Nelson did, however, throw his Yankees teammates under the bus:

 

Assistant Attorney General David Fredette told the judge that a videotape of the fight revealed that Williams' most serious injuries were inflicted by other players who jumped into the fracas, not by Nelson and Garcia.

 

"It'd be nice of you guys to write that," Nelson told a reporter as he walked out of the courtroom.

[TheKilo]

What else is there to say, really? JHB, ksushi, and ORS did an excellent job completely destroying 26's argument.

 

I'm still waiting for the rationale of making a punishment public as well.

[ORS]

And there isn't one Kilo. This happens all the time in any group of people who spend an assload of time together and travel extensively. Ask anyone who served in the military. They handle it the same way. "Hug it out, bitch!"

[ksushi]

Well, yes, but...

 

I pretty much knew there would be a "but" in there, I didn't do any extensive looking around, cause I didn't really need to. Point is simple, it was professional athletes being professional *******s. It happens.

[BoSox21]

Buster Olney is saying that Milwaukee has become a very strong candidate for Sabathia, possibly acquiring him as early as next week in a deal involving Matt LaPorta. Ken Rosenthal adds that Alcides Escobar could also be involved

[riverside sluggers]

Seriously the worst starting shortstop I have seen as a Red Sox in my lieftime. Last night witnessed another one of his game by game "memorable" moments. Lugo's lack of defense to his left was highlighted as he dove for the ball that Gardner hit. But it bounced in and out of his glove to give the Yankees the win

 

First 2 seasons of 4 year/$36 million contract (option for 5th year at $9 million)

225 games- 190 for 817 (.233 avg) 49 Doubles, 2 Triples, 9 HRs, 92 RBIs, 96 Runs, 80 Walks, 131 Ks, 44 for 54 SBs

 

Now Lugo signed that contract with Theo imagining him as the everyday leadoff hitter. "We can live with the defense because he'll make it up with the offense"

 

He has made a team high 16 errors this season, last year he had a manageable 19. Last year he grounded into just 9 DPs, already he is at 13 last time I checked

 

What helped him avoid heavy criticism was that he was able to drive in runs, 72. This year however... he'll be lucky to reach half that total

 

RISP- 11 for 73 (.151 avg) Double, 17 RBIs, 14 Walks, 16 Ks

RISP/2 Outs- 5 for 29 (.172 avg) Double, 4 RBIs, 8 Walks, 8 Ks

[yeszir]

The sox need bullpen help now. I've heard Damaso Marte's name mentioned. Or Fuentes, even though he scares me. This team is falling apart at the hands of its bullpen.

[Rdsxmbnt]

It was actually Cora who missed the ball up the middle.

 

But really there is a word for Lugo in the business world; sunk cost. It is apparent that Lugo is not getting any better/younger/likeable. Lowrie is ready to be a major league player and we need to minimize the black hole at the bottom of the lineup.

[yeszir]

Craig Grebeck

[jacksonianmarch]

Sounds like the Rays are targeting Fuentes and their system is the deepest in all of baseball. If they wanna ante up for this championship run, nobody beats them in a deal.

 

As for Marte. From 2005-2007, Marte was pretty much a LH specialist. His OPS against vs righties was near .800 while vs lefties, he was under .600. But this yr, Marte is dominating righties more than lefties. And, over the last 2 yrs he really found his control. He used to be a 5-6BB/9IP guy, now he is around 2-3BB/9IP with high K and low hit rates. He sounds like a gem, but nobody seems to talk about him. Heres the problem. He's 33 and with his new found success comes the drop in velocity. Is it his way to locate or is he starting to slide? He's also a FA at the end of the yr and along with Fuentes, those two are the relief gems of the deadline. And we saw what the sox gave up for a middle reliever last yr. I dont think Theo meets the demands because of his fear that Marte can fall apart. And I dont blame him.

[jacksonianmarch]

I see a deal this offseason with the sox eating a ton of cash and giving Lowrie a shot. if they could live with Lugo's s***** D, they can live with Lowrie's below average range (but better hands). And if Lowrie struggles, you can attribute it to a rookie getting used to the bigs. In Lugos case, it is a below avg MLBer playing like a below avg MLBer

[riverside sluggers]

It was actually Cora who missed the ball up the middle.

 

Thanks for the error on my part. I was just starting my break at work when I saw the play quickly, naturally it was too easy to assume.

 

I really do hope Lowrie is given a shot for the starting gig. He's almost the same type of hitter as Pedroia. His plate patience is something opposing pitchers dont want to be bothered with. Up in the majors there were a good # of times of him seeing 5-10 pitches per AB. Now he isnt the flashiest player on defense but he's got steady hands and will make routine plays. Lugo rushes routine plays even if its Jose Molina going to 1st

 

This season (Pawtucket & Boston)

66 games- 64 for 226 (.283 avg) 16 Doubles, 2 Triples, 6 HRs, 37 RBIs, 41 Runs, 32 walks, 49 Ks, SB

[TheKilo]

Seriously the worst starting shortstop I have seen as a Red Sox in my lieftime. Last night witnessed another one of his game by game "memorable" moments. Lugo's lack of defense to his left was highlighted as he dove for the ball that Gardner hit. But it bounced in and out of his glove to give the Yankees the win

 

How can I really take this post seriously when you can't even do your homework regarding the last play?

 

Lugo's been awful no question - thing is Ellsbury and Varitek have been even worse over the last month plus, and Cora is not a realistic option as a replacement because he's even worse than the rest.

 

The best course of action is to dump Cora and platoon Lowrie/Lugo/Pedroia...there's plenty of ABs to go around with those three. Lowrie can even spell Lowell if he has to.

[TheKilo]

Daniel Bard. Do it, Theo.

[jacksonianmarch]

I dont think he will. Remember Kilo, he's only shown he can locate for one half a season. Prior to this yr he was in the Steve Dalkowski control range. By rushing him to the bigs, you increase the chances that he reverts to his old self. He's a kid I send to AAA and see how he performs in ST next yr.

[jacksonianmarch]

not a bad idea kilo

[TheKilo]

What's the real difference b/t Joba's first half last year and Bard's this year?

[jacksonianmarch]

Joba didnt start out having a miserable time locating. Joba started out gangbusters and never slowed. Bard was wild as hell and has now found his control.

[a700hitter]

How can I really take this post seriously when you can't even do your homework regarding the last play?

 

Lugo's been awful no question - thing is Ellsbury and Varitek have been even worse over the last month plus, and Cora is not a realistic option as a replacement because he's even worse than the rest.

 

The best course of action is to dump Cora and platoon Lowrie/Lugo/Pedroia...there's plenty of ABs to go around with those three. Lowrie can even spell Lowell if he has to.

I agree. I was hoping that they would release Cora earlier in the year when he was on the DL and Lowrie was proving that he could handle 3 IF positions and hit better than Cora. Now, is the time.

[ORS]

Add me to the list that supports this move. Cora's inability to provide above average defense, due to diminished range, off the bench at a MIF position means that he no longer provides what was his only marketable skill. The ideal situation would be to start Lowrie most nights with Lugo on the bench. Late game, he's ideal to PR with and then take over at SS providing additional range in a close game.

[Jayhawk Bill]

FWIW, Lugo has played every position except C-1B in MLB. He played a little 2B in MiLB, too, along with a little outfield.

[TheKilo]

Joba didnt start out having a miserable time locating. Joba started out gangbusters and never slowed. Bard was wild as hell and has now found his control.

 

Not what I asked homes.

[paranoia]

dump lugo bring up lowrie no question I agree with this move, Jed will make less errors as a rookie then lugo does now.