Mitchell Report

[26 to 6]

Canseco on Mitchell report: Where's A-Rod?

FOXSports.com

Posted: 1 hour ago

Jose Canseco couldn't get into the Mitchell Report press conference, but he was making the rounds on TV afterward. And his biggest point of contention? "All I can say is the Mitchell Report is incomplete ... I could not believe that (A-Rod's) name was not in the report."

 

Take it for what you will, but the guy deserves a little credit. He's been spot on, even if he's selling everyone out and trying to be in the spotlight.

While absolutely, Canseco has been dead-on with all of his claims from his first book, I'm skeptical here. Not because i'm a Yankee fan with a bias or anything, but because if Jose had info on A-Rod, why not tell of it in his first book? If he has information like he claims to, then lets hear it Jose. I think it's just a ploy for sales when his second book gets published, which appearantly will be very soon. But if you think about it, Jose hasn't been around the game for quite some years, so what new information could he possibly have now tha he didnt have then, especially as time goes on he is being further and further removed from the players he played with and the period in which he played. I think at this point Jose is just dying for some attention, and is trying to sell some books. This isn't to say that what he says in his next book will be false, just that it's ironic and suspicious for him to hold onto this information for so long. I mean hey, why wouldnt he include A-Rod in juiced, considering he is the BEST player in baseball. You would think that's the reason for him to want to do it. Waiting until book number 2 is a little odd in my opinion. But ike I said before when I mentioned what Jose said, I do like Jose and think he does deserve some credibility for what he's said that has been revealed to be true sofar, but this isjust a little fishy, IMO. We're gonna have to wait and see what transpires from this.

[YAZMAN]

While absolutely' date=' Canseco has been dead-on with all of his claims from his first book, I'm skeptical here. Not because i'm a Yankee fan with a bias or anything, but because if Jose had info on A-Rod, why not tell of it in his first book? If he has information like he claims to, then lets hear it Jose. I think it's just a ploy for sales when his second book gets published, which appearantly will be very soon. But if you think about it, Jose hasn't been around the game for quite some years, so what new information could he possibly have now tha he didnt have then, especially as time goes on he is being further and further removed from the players he played with and the period in which he played. I think at this point Jose is just dying for some attention, and is trying to sell some books. This isn't to say that what he says in his next book will be false, just that it's ironic and suspicious for him to hold onto this information for so long. I mean hey, why wouldnt he include A-Rod in juiced, considering he is the BEST player in baseball. You would think that's the reason for him to want to do it. Waiting until book number 2 is a little odd in my opinion. But ike I said before when I mentioned what Jose said, I do like Jose and think he does deserve some credibility for what he's said that has been revealed to be true sofar, but this isjust a little fishy, IMO. We're gonna have to wait and see what transpires from this.[/quote']

 

He probably does have info, and this is a lead-in to his next book.

 

Maybe he'll name it "The House That Winstrol Built".

[ORS]

An Arod/Jose connection does exist. Jose is Cuban, grew up in Miami's Cuban community, and lives there now. That's where Arod lives offseason. If anyone knows the steroid market in Miami, my guess is Jose is the guy, hell it wouldn't surprise me if he ran it.

 

I'm not going to point any fingers now because I don't trust the guy and it wouldn't surprise me if he's posturing to sell more books, but it's no stretch to connect the two.

[TheKilo]

Absolutely. Gagne forgot to pack his special package while moving from Texas to Boston - how could he perform?

 

You do realize the evidence against Gagne is from 2002, right?

[das11209]

You do realize the evidence against Gagne is from 2002' date=' right?[/quote']

 

Yeah I do - did not mean he stopped taking them totally after that.

[ORS]

If Gagne was still taking the junk, then you have to wonder who got ripped off more, the Sox, or him?

[TheKilo]

Yeah I do - did not mean he stopped taking them totally after that.

 

So basically you're speculating, and have no evidence. Gotcha.

[das11209]

So basically you're speculating' date=' and have no evidence. Gotcha.[/quote']

 

Yeah - and add the fact that I hate his guts - you will get the total picture.

[26 to 6]

An Arod/Jose connection does exist. Jose is Cuban, grew up in Miami's Cuban community, and lives there now. That's where Arod lives offseason. If anyone knows the steroid market in Miami, my guess is Jose is the guy, hell it wouldn't surprise me if he ran it.

 

I'm not going to point any fingers now because I don't trust the guy and it wouldn't surprise me if he's posturing to sell more books, but it's no stretch to connect the two.

I've also heard that back in the late 90's A-Rod worked out a few times with Jose at his home gym. I'm not denying that a relationship exists, all i'm saying is that A) why wasn't this in the first book, as revelations of A-Rod steroid use would have been FAR MORE SIGNIFICANT than what he revealed; and B ) it seems that Jose is just stringing everyone along trying to get some sales for Vindicated. If he has info on A-Rod he should have revealed it already.

 

If Gagne was still taking the junk, then you have to wonder who got ripped off more, the Sox, or him?

hahah

[a700hitter]

Life just keeps getting better for Red Sox fans.

 

In 2004, the Red Sox beat the Yankees in historic fashion. The Yanks had the worst choke in the history of the game.

 

The Red Sox sweep their way to a second World Championship, and in game 4, AROd announces that he is opting out of his contract and Yankee fans meltdown.

 

HOF Manager Torre parts ways with the Yankees

 

12 Yankees from the Championship era are named in the Mitchell report. How many more were doing the juoice we can only guess, but their clubhouse must have been like a crack den with syringes all over the place. Their championships that occurred right smack in the middle of the steroid era are forever tainted as a group of cheaters.

 

Clemens, the Whore of Famer phoney had it coming. He is the pitching counterpart for Bonds.

 

We will not have to worry about Clemen's threats to boycott the HOF if they put a Red Sox hat on him. I think he'd wear any hat now. What sweet irony.

 

Pettitte, the hypocritical family man got busted. I guess his family had a price, which is why he came back to NY. He said that he would pray for guidance about coming back to play in 2008. I wonder if he prayed for guidance before he stuck needles in his ass.

 

The legendary workouts by Clemens and Pettitte don't look so legendary right now.

 

I couldn't be happier that after the initial erroneous leak that neither Varitek or Damon or any 2004 Red Sox made the list. Yankee fans can scream bias, but if you think about it, the steroid era came to a crashing halt after 2003 when BALCO heated up. The users got scared and many went cold turkey and fell apart. Didn't Giambi and Kevin Brown pick up the mystery parasite in Japan at the beginning of 2004 and weren't they basically useless that year? Didn't Sosa go on the DL from sneezing that year? 2004 can be pointed to as the beginning of the post steroid era because of the increased scrutiny by law enforcement, etc. The Red Sox two championships are secure from being tainted. If any of the prominent Sox had ever done ROIDs, they most likely did them before 2004.

 

The only Sox named Manny on the list was Manny Alexander. Too bad Yankee fans.

 

The only Red Sox from 2007 were Gagne and Donnelly. Gagne, not only contributed nothing, but he practically wrecked the Red Sox season single-handed. Donnelly contributed next to nothing.

 

I laugh at Yankee fans that were suspecting/hoping that Manny/Ortiz/Schilling would be on the list. At Spring Training 2004, I saw these guys with their shirts off. They could easily have given the Michelin Man a run for his money. If they were doing Roids, they must have been laced with Wendy's.

 

We get to look forward to raising the Championship banner on opening day and the Yankee tradition has been permanently sullied, desecrated and tainted.

 

Life is wonderful. Happy Holidays!!

[rician blast]

The link below is to an article written but some clown named Vito Forlenza, sports Editor for Comcast.net. What a douche.

 

http://community.comcast.net/comcastportal/blog/article?message.uid=1045496

 

"And the Red Sox weren’t even mildly interested in landing those players or anyone else available this offseason who showed up in the report. A combination of coincidence and smart business decisions? Or a blend of inside information and protection of the club’s image?

 

Sadly, we’ll never know."

[Taliesin]

They pick me to be tested every time," he said. "I don't know why. I don't know if it's because I'm a big guy, or what, but all I know is all they are going to find is a lot of rice and beans - David Ortiz

 

LOL about Big Papi taking steroids. No way. Same w/ Manny. Not bias...it's just kind of obvious. How the mighty have fallen. Rome wasn't built in a day but it sure did crumble fast. Big Stein reminds me of Old Joe Kennedy...incapable of undoing the evil he brought unto his own palace. He watches...and drools unable to speak as the power corrupts absolutely, and the fake Princes and their false kingdom slowly succumb one by one.

 

Tyrants can seem invincible at the time, but in the end they always fall. Think of it. Always -MG

[Cocos Disciples]

The link below is to an article written but some clown named Vito Forlenza, sports Editor for Comcast.net. What a douche.

 

http://community.comcast.net/comcastportal/blog/article?message.uid=1045496

 

"And the Red Sox weren’t even mildly interested in landing those players or anyone else available this offseason who showed up in the report. A combination of coincidence and smart business decisions? Or a blend of inside information and protection of the club’s image?

 

Sadly, we’ll never know."

 

Lol at that. I'd love for him to list some guys on the list who he thinks would be good fits w/ the Sox.

[26 to 6]

700, SHUT THE f*** UP YOU MISERABLE OLD PRICK.

 

Excuse my language. Carry on..

[a700hitter]

700, SHUT THE f*** UP YOU MISREBLE OLD PRICK.

 

Excuse my language. Carry on..

Hey! I may be old, but I am not miserable.

[26 to 6]

Really? You've always come across that way to me

[a700hitter]

Really? You've always come across that way to me

When are you going to update your user name to:

22 to 7

[26 to 6]

I stated several times that I would have no problem with it being changed to 26 to 7. I dont have the abilit to do it myself, and have even requested that someone with the authority do it..nobody has. What do you want me to do about it?

[a700hitter]

I stated several times that I would have no problem with it being changed to 26 to 7. I dont have the abilit to do it myself' date=' and have even requested that someone with the authority do it..nobody has. What do you want me to do about it?[/quote']22 to 7 would be more accurate.

[Johnny_RedSox]

next year you will need to change it to 8

[Thumper]

22 to 7 would be more accurate.

 

Burn.

[TheKilo]

700, SHUT THE f*** UP YOU MISERABLE OLD PRICK.

 

Excuse my language. Carry on..

 

Intelligent discourse at its finest.

[YAZMAN]

Intelligent discourse at its finest.

 

I prefer the time honored "go fist yourself".

[26 to 6]

Intelligent discourse at its finest.

When it comes to a700hitter I have no ability to act rationally. He enrages me to the point that I get so frustrated and do nothing else but act like that. Not that it's right, but when it comes to him that's just how I feel.

 

 

Player Cooperated, and His Name Was Left Out of Report

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/15/sports/baseball/15mitchell.html?_r=1&ref=baseball&oref=slogin

 

Wonder who it could be.

[He Hate Me]

When it comes to a700hitter I have no ability to act rationally. He enrages me to the point that I get so frustrated and do nothing else but act like that. Not that it's right, but when it comes to him that's just how I feel.

 

 

Player Cooperated, and His Name Was Left Out of Report

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/15/sports/baseball/15mitchell.html?_r=1&ref=baseball&oref=slogin

 

Wonder who it could be.

 

was listening to radio and Frank Thomas name was mentioned as the only one who cooperated besides Giambino

[26 to 6]

Not surprising.

[TheKilo]

Frank Thomas's name is in the report, though.

[a700hitter]

When it comes to a700hitter I have no ability to act rationally. He enrages me to the point that I get so frustrated and do nothing else but act like that. Not that it's right' date=' but when it comes to him that's just how I feel.[/quote']Thank you "22 to 7".

[26 to 6]

no prob you .032 hitter

[Jayhawk Bill]

Nate Silver, BP Unfiltered:

 

Well, finally, the real Mitchell Commission report is out. And the reality does not match the perception, nor the fabrication that was “The List”. Yes, there are some big names in the actual Mitchell Commission report, the ones that you’ll bandied about on SportsCenter over the course of the next week. But for the most part? It’s what would appear to be a random sampling of baseball’s population. It’s guys like Roger Clemens — and Jason Christiansen. It’s Miguel Tejada — and Mike Lansing. It’s Jason Giambi — and Jeremy Giambi. If anything, in fact, the list appears to have a tilt toward marginal players rather than stars, something which might have been predicted based on both the circumstantial statistical evidence, and the underlying incentives behind steroid usage: it’s the guys who are trying to become millionaires — not those who are millionaires already –who have the most reason to cheat.

 

This is not to diminish the importance of the PED problem in baseball. But, after frankly dreading the release of this report and its prospective impact on the game for several weeks now, I’m glad that we have an apparently well documented and well balanced account of the problem. The real list of players included in the Mitchell Commission report is not ironclad: the evidence is broad in some cases, and thinner in others; some players are mentioned in passing, rather than actually being the subject of any direct evidence of PED use.

 

But however the names in this list come to be vetted and analyzed and parsed through over the course of the next several weeks, a couple things are certain. Number one, it’s much harder to guess at just who is a steroid user than you might think. And number two, we aren’t doing ourselves any good when we make accusations on the basis of overactive imaginations, rather than the actual evidence.

 

This may be the worst, most misleading blurb that Nate Silver has written in his career. It has all the marks of spin, and I notice that every writer at BP is using the report to somehow minimize the issue of steroids and other PEDs in baseball, too.

 

Let's revisit those 88 names. Is there anything that distinguishes the listed players from other MLB players?

 

First let's look at the 88 players and eliminate those who were marginal MLB players and who played in only a handful of games:

 

Paxton Crawford

Mike Bell

Bart Miadich

Mike Judd

Alex Cabrera

Ryan Jorgensen

Cody McKay

Adam Riggs

 

OK, right off the bat we have something: individuals caught by the Mitchell Report tended to be long-term MLB players. This starkly contrasts with random testing, which catches mostly marginal players. Granted, I've included players with over a mere 162 MLB games as long-term players--but how else to describe Tim Laker, for example, who played in 281 MLB games from 1992 to 2006?

 

Next, let's look at pitchers. I checked for two things for each player:

 

1) Peak age

2) Saddle curve of performance

 

Peak age combines best rate stats with best counting stats. A saddle curve is a dual peak of performance, separated by at least one full substandard year significantly differing from the two peaks. Both of these are slightly subjective, but I'll post here my findings so that you may challenge them if you choose:

 

[table]Name | Peak Age | Saddle Curve

Rick Ankiel | 20 | Y

Ismael Valdes | 23 | Y

Jim Parque | 24 | N

John Rocker | 24 | N

Steve Woodard | 24 | N

Ricky Bones | 25 | N

Dan Naulty | 26 | N

Eric Gagne | 27 | N

Scott Schoeneweis | 27 | N

Derrick Turnbow | 27 | N

Jason Christiansen | 28 | N

Denny Neagle | 28 | N

Ricky Stone | 28 | N

Darren Holmes | 29 | Y

Kent Mercker | 29 | Y

Stephen Randolph | 29 | N

Ron Villone | 29 | Y

Ryan Franklin | 30 | N

Matt Herges | 30 | N

Kevin Brown | 31 | N

Paul Byrd | 31 | N

Brendan Donnelly | 31 | N

Jason Grimsley | 33 | Y

Josias Manzanillo | 33 | Y

Andy Pettitte | 33 | Y

Roger Clemens | 34 | Y

Mike Stanton | 34 | N

Todd Williams | 34 | Y[/table]

 

Most MLB pitchers peak between ages 25 and 26. (Rany Jazayerli, 2002). These pitchers peak, as a group, at 28.6 years of age. Saddle curves are a bit unusual; 10 of the 28 pitchers have saddle curves.

 

Let's look at position players. Using hitting stats only, here's what we have:

 

[table]Name | Peak Age | Saddle Curve

Jose Canseco | 23 | Y

Troy Glaus | 23 | Y

Chad Allen | 24 | Y

Phil Hiatt | 24 | Y

Adam Piatt | 24 | N

Bobby Estalella | 25 | N

Jerry Hairston | 25 | Y

Tim Laker | 25 | Y

Nook Logan | 25 | N

Manny Alexander | 26 | Y

Larry Bigbie | 26 | N

Jay Gibbons | 26 | Y

Chris Donnels | 27 | Y

Jeremy Giambi | 27 | N

Todd Hundley | 27 | Y

Chuck Knoblauch | 27 | Y

Armando Rios | 27 | N

Brian Roberts | 27 | N

Gary Sheffield | 27 | Y

Rondell White | 27 | Y

Matt Williams | 27 | Y

Jack Cust | 28 | N

Juan Gonzalez | 28 | Y

Jose Guillen | 28 | Y

F.P. Santangelo | 28 | Y

Miguel Tejada | 28 | N

Mo Vaughn | 28 | N

Marvin Benard | 29 | N

Jason Giambi | 29 | Y

Mike Lansing | 29 | N

Paul Lo Duca | 29 | Y

Fernando Vina | 29 | N

Gary Bennett | 30 | N

Howie Clark | 30 | N

Lenny Dykstra | 30 | Y

Glenallen Hill | 30 | N

Kevin Young | 30 | N

David Bell | 31 | Y

Mark Carreon | 31 | Y

David Justice | 31 | Y

Gary Matthews | 31 | N

Hal Morris | 31 | N

Benito Santiago | 31 | Y

Matt Franco | 32 | Y

Ken Caminiti | 33 | N

Todd Pratt | 33 | Y

David Segui | 33 | Y

Mark McGwire | 34 | Y

Rafael Palmeiro | 34 | Y

Gregg Zaun | 34 | Y

Barry Bonds | 36 | Y

Randy Velarde | 36 | Y[/table]

 

Hitters peak at age 27. These players, as a group, peak at age 28.7. Of the 52, 32 have performance saddle curves.

 

Let's say that any position player who peaked at age 28 or later, or pitcher who peaked at age 27 or later, or any player with a saddle curve, showed something suspicious of PED use. Exempting the eight marginal MLB players, here's the list of "surprises:"

 

Adam Piatt

Bobby Estalella

Nook Logan

Larry Bigbie

Jeremy Giambi

Armando Rios

Brian Roberts

 

Jim Parque

John Rocker

Steve Woodard

Ricky Bones

Dan Naulty

 

That's 12 out of 80 named players. The performance of 68 of the 80 long-term MLB players on the list was suspicious.

 

What would be most suspicious would be the combination of a late peak and a saddle curve. Let's look at those names:

 

Darren Holmes

Kent Mercker

Ron Villone

Jason Grimsley

Josias Manzanillo

Andy Pettitte

Roger Clemens

Todd Williams

 

Juan Gonzalez

Jose Guillen

F.P. Santangelo

Jason Giambi

Paul Lo Duca

Lenny Dykstra

David Bell

Mark Carreon

David Justice

Benito Santiago

Matt Franco

Todd Pratt

David Segui

Mark McGwire

Rafael Palmeiro

Gregg Zaun

Barry Bonds

Randy Velarde

 

Based upon stats alone, we've fingered Roger Clemens, Andy Pettitte, Juan Gonzalez, Jason Giambi, Mark McGwire, Rafael Palmeiro, and Barry Bonds.

 

***

 

Look, if Nate Silver had said that he'd tried identifying who would be on the Mitchell List using stats and failed, that would be one thing. He isn't; he's saying that one could not have known without any attempt at research. I'm saying that we've known for years that late peaks or saddle curves were indicative of PED use, and that the intellectual dishonesty of those who refused to accept that without proof now extends to denying it despite the proof.