Johan Santana

[ksushi]

Kilo, I understand and for the most part agree with you.

 

Except for Ellsbury. Crisp ceiling is not much more then he is now, maybe a .280 hitter with great CF D. Ellsbury Ceiling has been compared to Beltran and Sizemore...Not saying he will ever reach that but he is a big time prospect. If he wasn't then Minny would not be holding out for him. Minny has been known for going after players with big upsides and players who usually end up being big time players. If Minny wants him, I think he has a fair shot at being a big time CF/

 

Crisp ceiling as a .280 hitter? Except those years where he hit .300 right? Forgot about that. Go on a hunt and find what his BA was from July 1 to the end of the season.

 

I don't know if Ellsbury projects to be Sizemore or Beltran good either... I've certainly not heard any of those comps. I've heard people say his swing has a little Beltran in it, but his frame certainly doesn't.

 

The Sox can't let this deal fall apart over the inclusion of Ellsbury. We would be selling insanely high. He is going to be a good player, for sure, but right now he is considered almost elite - if not he is considered elite - because of the series. He set the world on fire when he got called up, but his production over the next few years will probably not be so far off vs. Crisps production that it is worth it to keep Ellsbury over Crisp in a deal for probably the most dominant pitcher in the game right now.

 

Sure, in a vaacum I would rather have Ellsbury. Easily. Thing is, in baseball, decisions are never made in a vaacum. I would rather have Santana and Crisp than Ellsbury.

[BSN07]

Well lets break the trade down. Coco Crisp at 10 million for the next 2 years has no value IMO. Lester is a solid prospect at this point and still has potential. I dont know much about Masterson so I cant speak on him but from what I heard hes a future reliever. Bowden I do know was highly thought of and did not proform to expectations this year. I am suprised however how the Red Sox are holding on to Ellsbury. For a pitcher like Santana he shouldnt be a deal breaker IMO.

 

The Sox FO has shown a nact for knowing who is going to be a difference maker. the fac that there Balking at Ellsbury in a Santana deal should enlighten us to what the FO expects him to be as a player...

[TheKilo]

I guess I beg to disagree based on how horrible he has been in terms of offense. Put Crisp in place of Ellsbury and we do not win the Cleveland series in the post season.

Crisp is nothing but an automatic out. Heck - I will take Lugo's bat over Coco.

 

Did you read ORS's post, about how his defense made him an above average player?

 

And i firmly disagree with your statement that we don't win the Cleveland series with Ellsbury in instead of Crisp.

 

Game 5 - Beckett's dominant performance led to a victory, Crisp played in this game.

 

Game 6 - Drew's GS vaulted the Sox to an early lead, Ellsbury makes the last out of the 1st inning and only gets his RBI single when the score was 5-1 in favor of the Red Sox.

 

Game 7 - Jacoby goes 1-3. Pedroia had a bit of a larger role in that win.

[ORS]

Is Crisp really worth 10 mill over the next 2 years though? Your forgetting those players can actually hit. Comeon I mean who would you rather have Ellsbury or Crisp? I think the Red Sox are anwsering that question when they try to pawn Crisp off on the Twins instead of Ellsbury.

I'm sorry, I missed the rule change where players just have a batting practice challenge and no longer have to play defense. I'm not forgetting that those players can hit. I'm using a stat that considers total contribution. You are ignoring part of a player's value by focussing solely on the offensive side of the ball. Do I think he's worth his salary? Absolutely, he's a bargain with that kind of contribution.

 

The question isn't whether Crisp or Ellsbury is preferable. That answer is universally agreed upon. But the notion that they are trying to "pawn" off Crisp goes back to the issue of ignoring his total contribution. Let me put it this way, when you say "pawn" off and suggest he's not worth his contract, then you must think there'd be no takers if he were placed on irrevocable waivers. That is folly. He'd be snatched up in heartbeat. Even by your Yankees, and Melky would find himself out of a job.

[cam780]

Tell me why we want someone who strikes out more often than Wily Mo Pena.

 

My comparison is Crisp and Jones. Both have basically the same career OBP although Jones has a larger sample size. Jones has the better arm from center. They have basically the same career average but Jones gets more bases through walks. They both have about the same career average but both Fenway and the Jake (.300 and .284 respectively) are better parks for righties than Turner Field (.269).

 

Strikeouts are a concern Jones strikes out once more every three games than Crisp but Jones also has 30-40 homerun potential and slots in our 5 spot nicely.

 

Jones is coming off a down year and Boras is having an off-season from hell. He can't afford to boast another big money contract that doesn't pan out. This offseason, Jones could turn out to be a bargain.

 

That being said I don't think it happens because I think the Sox keep Ellsbury and if they decide to move him for Santana I think they wind up playing Crisp. But Jones would be my preferred number 2 over Crisp if only because Jones is a solid 5 or 6 in this line up and Crisp is at 8 or 9 when Jones gives you very little if any drop off in the field.

[das11209]

My comparison is Crisp and Jones. Both have basically the same career OBP although Jones has a larger sample size. Jones has the better arm from center. They have basically the same career average but Jones gets more bases through walks. They both have about the same career average but both Fenway and the Jake (.300 and .284 respectively) are better parks for righties than Turner Field (.269).

 

Strikeouts are a concern Jones strikes out once more every three games than Crisp but Jones also has 30-40 homerun potential and slots in our 5 spot nicely.

 

Jones is coming off a down year and Boras is having an off-season from hell. He can't afford to boast another big money contract that doesn't pan out. This offseason, Jones could turn out to be a bargain.

 

That being said I don't think it happens because I think the Sox keep Ellsbury and if they decide to move him for Santana I think they wind up playing Crisp. But Jones would be my preferred number 2 over Crisp if only because Jones is a solid 5 or 6 in this line up and Crisp is at 8 or 9 when Jones gives you very little if any drop off in the field.

 

Nicely put - exactly my thoughts but I am horrible with statistics.

[cam780]

The Sox FO has shown a nact for knowing who is going to be a difference maker. the fac that there Balking at Ellsbury in a Santana deal should enlighten us to what the FO expects him to be as a player...

 

The Red Sox don't own a crystal ball. I wouldn't hitch my argument to the fact that the Sox know what they have. I think its a no-brainer to want to trade Crisp before Ellsbury but I don't think it should be a deal breaker. Craig Hansen was once on the untouchable list too.

[das11209]

Did you read ORS's post, about how his defense made him an above average player?

 

And i firmly disagree with your statement that we don't win the Cleveland series with Ellsbury in instead of Crisp.

 

Game 5 - Beckett's dominant performance led to a victory, Crisp played in this game.

 

Game 6 - Drew's GS vaulted the Sox to an early lead, Ellsbury makes the last out of the 1st inning and only gets his RBI single when the score was 5-1 in favor of the Red Sox.

 

Game 7 - Jacoby goes 1-3. Pedroia had a bit of a larger role in that win.

 

I do not think that there is any dispute that Ellsbury is far far better than Coco when you combine offense + defense ( or is there?).

 

I think last year we had a down year offense-wise ( compared to what we did between 2003-2005). Yeah - we did win the world series - but we need some offensive upgrade. Taking Ellsbury out will be actually a downgrade. Can you tell me for sure that Drew/Lugo will not suck, Papi will be healthy all year and Manny will not be Manny next year? You guarantee me that - and I can live with Coco's defense and consider we have a 8 man line-up not 9. Heck - in the end Coco could not even bunt the ball.

[jacksonianmarch]

I've already said that I find it hard to give credit to what Gammons says but here are the scouting reports on Tabata and Kennedy:

 

2. Ian Kennedy, RHP

DOB: 12/19/84

Height/Weight: 6-0/190

Bats/Throws: R/R

Drafted: 1st round, 2006, University of Southern California

2007 Stats: 1.29 ERA at High-A (63-39-22-72); 2.59 at Double-A (48.2-27-17-57); 2.08 ERA at Triple-A (34.2-25-11-34); 1.89 ERA at MLB (19-13-9-15)

 

Year In Review: Followed the Joba development plan by opening the year in the Florida State League, dominating at every level, and finishing the season in pinstripes.

The Good: Kennedy’s best pitch is a plus-plus changeup that features arm-side deception and late, heavy drop. It worked as an out pitch at every level, including the majors. He sets it up with a fastball that has average velocity at 88-91 mph, but grades up a level because of Kennedy’s ability to locate it at will. His curveball is average and effective when he mixes it in.

The Bad: The only real knock against Kennedy is his ceiling. He doesn’t have front-end starter's stuff, and projects as no more than a third starter, but the good news is that he’s already there. He’s a bit on the smallish side, and his fastball can get a bit straight at times.

Fun Fact: In the third inning of minor league games, Kennedy allowed just one run in 25 frames.

Perfect World Projection: Kennedy is what he is, but he’s a solid big league starter right now, giving the Yankees a return on their draft investment in barely more than a year.

Timetable: Kennedy has a shot at earning a rotation job in spring training, but any number of potential deals and/or free agent signings could force him to return to Triple-A to begin 2008.

 

and Tabata:

 

4. Jose Tabata, OF

DOB: 8/12/88

Height/Weight: 5-11/160

Bats/Throws: R/R

Acquired: NDFA, 2005, Venezuela

2007 Stats: .307/.371/.392 at High-A (103 G)

 

Year In Review: The top-notch hitting prospect more than held his own at High-A as an 18-year-old before his season ended prematurely due to hamate bone surgery.

The Good: Tabata is a gifted hitter with outstanding bat speed and hand-eye coordination, showing the ability to hit any pitch, anywhere, from both lefties and righties. He’s an average runner and a good right fielder with the arm strength for the position. He plays under control and with a confidence far beyond his years.

The Bad: While Tabata’s hand problems were a year-long issue and mitigating factor, scouts are beginning to question his power ceiling. He’s not especially big, and his swing is on a level plane-–so while the ball flies off his bat, it’s not overly loaded with loft or backspin. If he doesn’t develop power, he doesn’t really match the profile normally associated with the position. He could also use a more patient approach.

Fun Fact: When playing right field, Tabata hit .335, but when playing designated hitter only, Tabata hit just .169 in 71 at-bats.

Perfect World Projection: Most are convinced that Tabata will hit .300+ in the majors. It’s the development of his secondary skills that will define whether or not he ends up as an impact player.

Timetable: Tabata is expected to be healthy for spring training, and once again, he’ll be extremely young for his level, playing in Double-A as a nineteen year old.

 

Masterson is a notch below great - would you say that would qualify as a big league starter ie Kennedy? And Tabata has below average power that needs to define his secondary skills to be an impact player? Much like a starting shortstop with great plate discipline?

 

Hmmm.

 

From the reports that you quote, Lowrie may project better than Tabata. Masterson and Kennedy look like the same player then the Yanks throw in Cabrera and the Sox give Lester and Crisp. Your argument has actually convinced me that I was wrong. These offers aren't comparable. The Sox have the better deal on the table.

 

 

The problem with your argument is that Kennedy already is a major leaguer while masterson was average at AA this past season. Also, as I said before, Masterson profiles to be a reliever based upon his lack of a 3rd reliable pitch. So in terms of worth, a 21 yr old #3 starter in the majors now or a AA pitcher who profiles as a reliever. It isnt even close.

In terms of Tabata, his age at the level must be taken into account. The kid his for solid average this yr as an 18 yr old in High A while having a nagging injury. He has 5 yrs to develop the power potential before he reaches Lowrie's current age. Regardless, this upcoming season will be a good one to watch out of Tabata as his lack of power excuses (wrist problems essentially) will have been definitively taken care of.

[ORS]

So, Kennedy's lower risk is more valuable than Masterson's higher ceiling, but Tabata's higher ceiling is more valuable than Lowrie's reduced risk. Interesting how that works. It's like magic.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

The problem with your argument is that Kennedy already is a major leaguer while masterson was average at AA this past season. Also' date=' as I said before, Masterson profiles to be a reliever based upon his lack of a 3rd reliable pitch. So in terms of worth, a 21 yr old #3 starter in the majors now or a AA pitcher who profiles as a reliever. It isnt even close. [/quote']

 

Yawn

 

Ian Kennedy is in a MLB rotation right now because the Yankees pitching is pathetic. If Kennedy were on the Red Sox he would start the season in AAA or AA. Justin Masterson will start the season in either AA or AAA.

 

As far as Masterson projecting as a reliever, thats possible although a sinkerball pitcher can get by mostly from that one pitch. Wang and Carmona mainly get by with a sinker and slider just like Masterson. Chamberlain makes a better case for that based on the fact he has a straight fastball and slider. He should be a reliever. But again the Yankees pitching staff is so poor they have no choice but to make him a starter where most other teams would stick him where he belongs...in the bullpen

[cam780]

The problem with your argument is that Kennedy already is a major leaguer while masterson was average at AA this past season. Also, as I said before, Masterson profiles to be a reliever based upon his lack of a 3rd reliable pitch. So in terms of worth, a 21 yr old #3 starter in the majors now or a AA pitcher who profiles as a reliever. It isnt even close.

In terms of Tabata, his age at the level must be taken into account. The kid his for solid average this yr as an 18 yr old in High A while having a nagging injury. He has 5 yrs to develop the power potential before he reaches Lowrie's current age. Regardless, this upcoming season will be a good one to watch out of Tabata as his lack of power excuses (wrist problems essentially) will have been definitively taken care of.

 

Only problem with that is the Twins would be getting a 23 year old #3 starter in our deal too - Lester plus Masterson. I'm not arguing that this offer isn't a strong offer. I just don't think that its stronger than the Sox. Tabata's age works both ways - he could develop into a power hitter in 5 years but I don't think the Twins want to wait that long for a return and that's assuming that that trait does develop. Lowrie's risk at this point is less than Tabata's and Lowrie does have double digit home run potential albeit not in the high twenties or thirties.

[ORS]

Here's the problem with Yankee fans and Tabata, and it's in tune with something I mentioned earlier. A couple of years ago, when he had a very good rookie ball showing, some scout quipped that Tabata reminded him of a "young Manny Ramirez". This quote, like the notion that Masterson must and can only be considered a future reliever, will not die. Well, this season is put up or STFU time for the Tabata contingent. He will be 19 next year. Manny was 19 in his first season of pro ball and put up a .326/.426/.679 line with 19 bombs in 215 ABs. Tabata will have to be leaps and bounds better than the .300/.371/.392 hitter with 5 dingers in 411 ABs he was last year to get close to that. Yet, the quote and projection won't die, even if he falls very short of it, which is what I think will happen.

[VA Sox Fan]

So' date=' Kennedy's lower risk is more valuable than Masterson's higher ceiling, but Tabata's higher ceiling is more valuable than Lowrie's reduced risk. Interesting how that works. It's like magic.[/quote']

 

 

LMAO! :lol:

[jacksonianmarch]

So' date=' Kennedy's lower risk is more valuable than Masterson's higher ceiling, but Tabata's higher ceiling is more valuable than Lowrie's reduced risk. Interesting how that works. It's like magic.[/quote']

 

Can you read? Kennedy's value is higher because he projects to remain a starter.

 

The Tabata argument will either be made or broken this yr when he returns from definitive treatment of what had been a chronic problem. IE, we'll see.

[jacksonianmarch]

Here's the problem with Yankee fans and Tabata' date=' and it's in tune with something I mentioned earlier. A couple of years ago, when he had a very good rookie ball showing, some scout quipped that Tabata reminded him of a "young Manny Ramirez". This quote, like the notion that Masterson must and can only be considered a future reliever, will not die. Well, this season is put up or STFU time for the Tabata contingent. He will be 19 next year. Manny was 19 in his first season of pro ball and put up a .326/.426/.679 line with 19 bombs in 215 ABs. Tabata will have to be leaps and bounds better than the .300/.371/.392 hitter with 5 dingers in 411 ABs he was last year to get close to that. Yet, the quote and projection won't die, even if he falls very short of it, which is what I think will happen.[/quote']

 

I dont think the Manny comparison will live up to hype either. I think Tabata will eventually develop enough power to be an average RFer in that respect, but his eye plus his BA will make him a valuable play if he progresses along the same lines while now having some wrist strength back. IE, he may end up being a guy who can hit .310+ with 15-20 homers. You do have to remember that Manny is one of the best hitters of a generation, so while he was compared to him, nobody in their right mind actually thinks we have another Manny. But to dismiss him totally when he has a legitimate reason for his power struggles, yet he continues to put up solid BA and OBP #s is stupid as well. Especially since the guy was 18 in A+ ball. He'll be 19 in AA ball, and will likely continue his trend of being the youngest player (or at least one of) in the league.

[ORS]

Can you read? Kennedy's value is higher because he projects to remain a starter.

 

The Tabata argument will either be made or broken this yr when he returns from definitive treatment of what had been a chronic problem. IE, we'll see.

Sure, I can read. Can you think for yourself, or are all of your opinions on the viability of a player just regurgitated garbage from two years ago, because that is what's driving the Masterson as a reliever sentiment?

 

I'd rather look into it myself. Here's what I found. Masterson had better peripheral numbers than CMW in the EL at 2 years younger age. Carmona had three tours of the EL, with his last at age 21, one year younger than Masterson, but he still never bested him in rate stat performance. Lowe pitched in AA in the SL, never bettered Master's rates.

 

So, what I find to be supporting my assertion that little analysis and a lot of regurgitation is being done is the fact that the guy who is a notch below them all as a comp is outperforming them at similar or younger ages with a similar pitching profile.

 

Enjoy the cud.

[jacksonianmarch]

Your comparison to CMW doesnt really hold much water. He wasnt even throwing a 2 seamer until he made it to Columbus in 2004. The AAA pitching coach at the time thought he would have more success throwing it in on righties since his 4 seamer/slider combo wasnt up to snuff for the bigs. And the rest is history...

[ORS]

I dont think the Manny comparison will live up to hype either. I think Tabata will eventually develop enough power to be an average RFer in that respect' date=' but his eye plus his BA will make him a valuable play if he progresses along the same lines while now having some wrist strength back. IE, he may end up being a guy who can hit .310+ with 15-20 homers. You do have to remember that Manny is one of the best hitters of a generation, so while he was compared to him, nobody in their right mind actually thinks we have another Manny. But to dismiss him totally when he has a legitimate reason for his power struggles, yet he continues to put up solid BA and OBP #s is stupid as well. Especially since the guy was 18 in A+ ball. He'll be 19 in AA ball, and will likely continue his trend of being the youngest player (or at least one of) in the league.[/quote']

I'm not dismissing him totally. I'm also not the guy purporting that an "average" (your words) RF projection is better than an above average CF, which is what Ellsbury projects as and is closer to.

 

Where I come from, this is what most people think.

 

Above average > Average

 

I can't speak as to what you were taught.

[jacksonianmarch]

I am not comparing Tabata and Ellsbury.

[ORS]

Your comparison to CMW doesnt really hold much water. He wasnt even throwing a 2 seamer until he made it to Columbus in 2004. The AAA pitching coach at the time thought he would have more success throwing it in on righties since his 4 seamer/slider combo wasnt up to snuff for the bigs. And the rest is history...

How about the other two? Surely, you must have an explanation for why Masterson was better than them at the same level yet must still project only as a reliever.

[TheKilo]

How about the other two? Surely' date=' you must have an explanation for why Masterson was better than them at the same level yet [b']must[/b] still project only as a reliever.

 

And also, the idea that Masterson wouldn't be able to add a new pitch to his repertoire as well strikes me as biased and foolish.

 

And then I remember who's posting those things.

[TheKilo]

The Sox FO has shown a nact for knowing who is going to be a difference maker. the fac that there Balking at Ellsbury in a Santana deal should enlighten us to what the FO expects him to be as a player...

 

No, because the FO knows how to negotiate. When, in a negotiation, would you ever start out with your best offer?

 

You're better than this.

 

I do not think that there is any dispute that Ellsbury is far far better than Coco when you combine offense + defense ( or is there?).

 

Again, did you not look at the statistics? In terms of the total package, Coco Crisp could at least be considered to be a comparable player to Manny Ramirez last season.

 

And honestly? I do have doubts as to whether or not the total package for Ellsbury is better. I've shown his numbers were fueled by an insanely high BABIP.

 

Can he sustain it? Maybe. But it is by no means a slam dunk sure thing.

 

I think last year we had a down year offense-wise ( compared to what we did between 2003-2005). Yeah - we did win the world series - but we need some offensive upgrade.

 

What about the other side of the coin....how much did we improve our pitching?

 

Taking Ellsbury out will be actually a downgrade.

 

Probably. is it enough to balk adding the best pitcher in baseball?

 

Answer me this. Do you really feel the difference between Lester and Santana in the rotation is less than Crisp and Ellsbury?

 

 

Can you tell me for sure that Drew/Lugo will not suck, Papi will be healthy all year and Manny will not be Manny next year? You guarantee me that - and I can live with Coco's defense and consider we have a 8 man line-up not 9. Heck - in the end Coco could not even bunt the ball.

 

I expect a bounce back year from Drew, yes. Lugo I'm not as confident. Ortiz will be healthier than this past year when he had arguably his best offensive season. Who knows about Manny.

 

If you're counting on Jacoby Ellsbury to carry an offense, you're in trouble anyway.

[TheKilo]

My comparison is Crisp and Jones. Both have basically the same career OBP although Jones has a larger sample size. Jones has the better arm from center.

 

Crisp has better range.

 

They have basically the same career average but Jones gets more bases through walks. They both have about the same career average but both Fenway and the Jake (.300 and .284 respectively) are better parks for righties than Turner Field (.269).

 

So we're talking about a difference of .016 batting average points. I don't need to have you tell me how insignificant that number is.

 

Strikeouts are a concern Jones strikes out once more every three games than Crisp but Jones also has 30-40 homerun potential and slots in our 5 spot nicely.

 

I won't argue this point too much, but then again it has huge potential to be WMP part deux, only it costs us over $10 million per.

 

Jones is coming off a down year and Boras is having an off-season from hell. He can't afford to boast another big money contract that doesn't pan out. This offseason, Jones could turn out to be a bargain.

 

Disagree. If you think Jones is signing for anything less than twice what Crisp makes you're insane.

 

That being said I don't think it happens because I think the Sox keep Ellsbury and if they decide to move him for Santana I think they wind up playing Crisp. But Jones would be my preferred number 2 over Crisp if only because Jones is a solid 5 or 6 in this line up and Crisp is at 8 or 9 when Jones gives you very little if any drop off in the field.

 

Is Jones twice the offensive player Crisp is? Heck, he'd have to be more than that because Crisp is the superior defensive CF, one who's mastered Fenway.

 

Between Jones at $10 mil+ and Crisp at $5, I'll take Crisp at 5.

[rician blast]

=jacksonianmarch;307866;]The Tabata argument will either be made or broken this yr when he returns from definitive treatment of what had been a chronic problem. IE, we'll see.

 

What does "definitive treatment of what HAD been a chronic problem" mean exactly? He had a wrist injury, correct?

 

I'd imagine some in the organization are very concerned that it could remain a long-term, nagging injury that saps his power. In 2007 he hit a respectable .307 but had only 5 dingers and 23 total extra-base hits...that's only 18% of his hits going for xtra bases.

 

I don't see how this kid is a huge issue in any Santana deal and if I'm the Twins I'm chasing one of the Sox minor league pitchers before I take the leap that this kid will pan out.

[TedWilliams101]

According to ESPN, the Red Sox are talking to the Twins about aquiring Santana. Right now ESPN is reporting that the framework for the package would be Coco Crisp, John Lester, Jed Lowrie, and one more prospect (it's believed that they are discussing Bowden).

 

How accurate is this?

[BoSox21]

According to ESPN, the Red Sox are talking to the Twins about aquiring Santana. Right now ESPN is reporting that the framework for the package would be Coco Crisp, John Lester, Jed Lowrie, and one more prospect (it's believed that they are discussing Bowden).

 

How accurate is this?

 

Broke yesterday. Keep up with the class

[rician blast]

According to ESPN, the Red Sox are talking to the Twins about aquiring Santana. Right now ESPN is reporting that the framework for the package would be Coco Crisp, John Lester, Jed Lowrie, and one more prospect (it's believed that they are discussing Bowden).

 

How accurate is this?

 

Who knows...you can decide for yourself I guess, and you might start by reading the previous 23 pages of this thread.

[cam780]

TheKilo:

Crisp has better range.

 

No doubt

 

So we're talking about a difference of .016 batting average points. I don't need to have you tell me how insignificant that number is.

 

-That difference represents Turner field to the Jake. The difference between Fenway and Turner is much more pronounced and should be accounted for in Fenway's projections. Since Jones had a dreadful year for average last year its probably more fair to take into consideration his avg for the period of time that Coco has been in Boston. Coco's averagefor the past two years is .266 which is 88% of the average righty in the park. Jones has an average that is 89% of the average righty at his park .242. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to see that that is roughly where Coco is now but Jones has scored more runs over those two years and has driven in considerably more runs

 

I won't argue this point too much, but then again it has huge potential to be WMP part deux, only it costs us over $10 million per.

 

-It is possible but WMP also had awful defense which further limited his worth

 

Disagree. If you think Jones is signing for anything less than twice what Crisp makes you're insane.

 

-Twice than what Crisp makes actually qualifies as a bargain based on Jones history

 

Is Jones twice the offensive player Crisp is? Heck, he'd have to be more than that because Crisp is the superior defensive CF, one who's mastered Fenway.

 

-Superior by an extremely marginal amount - a .998 fielding percentage for Crisp and .995 for Jones.

 

Between Jones at $10 mil+ and Crisp at $5, I'll take Crisp at 5.

 

-The Sox wouldn't just waive Crisp. You would assume that he would be traded for Prospect X or Prospects X and Y. So that may be closer to worth it

 

What this also isn't taking into account in this comparison is that if you put Jones behind Manny it will affect how pitchers pitch to Manny. Crisp value is mainly his defense and he isn't making anyone else in the lineup better for his presence.

 

Lastly

Again, did you not look at the statistics? In terms of the total package, Coco Crisp could at least be considered to be a comparable player to Manny Ramirez last season.

I want to join your fantasy league because I've got a couple of deals for you.

[cam780]

According to ESPN, the Red Sox are talking to the Twins about aquiring Santana. Right now ESPN is reporting that the framework for the package would be Coco Crisp, John Lester, Jed Lowrie, and one more prospect (it's believed that they are discussing Bowden).

 

How accurate is this?

 

I just heard that the Yank's are resigning A-Rod too. I wonder if this means we're going to press harder to resign Lowell?