ROCKET LANDS IN THE BRONX

[a700hitter]

Here's the thing though. How do you know Clemens wanted to go back to the Red Sox?

We don't know.

If the teams offered comparable money' date=' I think Clemens still goes to the Ynkees because he's buddy buddy with guys like Torre and Pettite.[/quote']You can't conclude that, because we didn't offer comparable money. This is a baseless rationalization.

It would have taken a much larger offer from the Sox to land him. The Yankees would have just continued to increase their offer.

Conjecture and rationalization.

At what point do you draw the line for a 45 year old pitcher who can only throw 6 innings at best?

Apparantly, the FO drew that line at $4 million less than they offered last year.

However' date=' looking back (and yes I know hindsight is 20/20), it seemed Clemens never had any intentions of going back to Boston. [/quote']It's not really 20-20 hindsight, because we don't know what he would have done if we had made a comparable offer. It is more of a rationalization.

I think it was wise of the FO to not drop $35-40 million on Clemens.

We offered him $18 million prorated which is $4 million less than last years offer. At the prorated salary offered' date=' we'd be giving ihim about $12 million for 4 months. Did anyone think that $12 million would get the job done? I don't think so.

They can never be equal. But I do believe a young Jon Lester can put up comparable numbers to 44 (soon to be 45) year old Roger Clemens.

For this year, I'd take my chances with the aging HOFer rather than the kid recovering from cancer.

[Mr Crunchy]

ole blood and guts raja

the man who left game 6 with a blister

the man who got tossed from game 4 dressed up like f***ing rambo

the man formerly known around here forever as mrs david stewart

the man who lasted 1 1/3 against petey in the 99 showdown

the man who rescued by mussina in 03

the man who won the cy young award then couldnt finish the 1st inning in game 1 of the world series because of:

(1)trick shoulder

(2)bad hammy

(3)sore quad

(4)all of the above

depends upon which ballwashing sycophant was telling the story as clemens, the man of the moment ,failed again when needed most...

the man who won 800 regular season games in boston but could muster only 1 playoff win,1 shy of shag crawfords effort from 86...

 

f*** roger clemens

let him go to ny and poison all the kids coming up with his ******** and lack of courage

the man is a fraud

if i needed a guy to win game 4 while im up 3-0 and have a 7 run 1st inning under my belt i'd call raja,thats when he shines

however

ask the people in boston and ny who know him best and theyd tell you he will crumble like stale cookie when the pressure is on him,he had his chances to lead ny in 01 02 03 and he couldnt get it done

dont bother asking the douchebags in houston

they dont understand the concept of the ball not having pointed ends yet and were probably watching the rice baylor game when he walked off the field in the 1st inning

 

its good to see ny so f***ing desperate again

all the yanks have accomplished with this crew and they now need to resort paying this shitbag 28m to come into the bronx and make that place stink worse than it already does??

 

its over

its now offically over,cash surrendered yesterday,raja is there to make sure the seats stay full 20% of the time while ny and tampa play for 4th

 

f*** roger clemens

texas faggot motherf***er choke artist

[Gom]

My personal belief is that Clemens is a better pitcher for this season. Dice-K has shown me nothing so far to think he is an elite pitcher. A 5.45 ERA with a 1.32 whip is nothing to be excited about in my book. I see Clemens as a 3.90-4.10 ERA pitcher over 6 innings, so basically, he will give up 2.5 runs a game for the Yankees in 5-6 innings. I'll take that over Matsuzaka's 4 runs over 6-7 innings any day.

[Mr Crunchy]

sox fan on the cape where ya from ? i use to live in p town ? hoe long you been on cape ?

 

trn

is that you??

[redsoxrules]

My personal belief is that Clemens is a better pitcher for this season. Dice-K has shown me nothing so far to think he is an elite pitcher. A 5.45 ERA with a 1.32 whip is nothing to be excited about in my book. I see Clemens as a 3.90-4.10 ERA pitcher over 6 innings' date=' so basically, he will give up 2.5 runs a game for the Yankees in 5-6 innings. I'll take that over Matsuzaka's 4 runs over 6-7 innings any day.[/quote']

 

do you really think dice k is gonna have a 5.45 ERA all year?

 

also you guys will be lucky if clemens finishes the year with an ERA under 4.5 and over 5IP per start

[a700hitter]

Do you even know what you are talking about?

 

The luxury tax line is at about $140 million dollars this year, meaning the Red Sox are about $3 million over. Signing Clemens would put them at $30 million or even greater. Even if the luxury tax were not an issue, it isn't a wise investment to give 45 year old pitchers, $30 million dollars.

 

 

 

No one said that.

 

Everyone said that Clemens would be an improvement, just the price is not justified at $30 million

.Even the Red Sox FO is not crying poverty on this one, so why are you crying it for them?

The Red Sox have nor gained or lost anyone. How are they weaker? Comparatively?

Yes and comparative strength or weakness is all that matters in a competition... right?

 

No one said that.

I believe that the Kilo said that they would be equal this year. What does this say to you?

They can never be equal. But I do believe a young Jon Lester can put up comparable numbers to 44 (soon to be 45) year old Roger Clemens.

[CrespoBlows]

My personal belief is that Clemens is a better pitcher for this season. Dice-K has shown me nothing so far to think he is an elite pitcher. A 5.45 ERA with a 1.32 whip is nothing to be excited about in my book. I see Clemens as a 3.90-4.10 ERA pitcher over 6 innings' date=' so basically, he will give up 2.5 runs a game for the Yankees in 5-6 innings. I'll take that over Matsuzaka's 4 runs over 6-7 innings any day.[/quote']

 

You don't actually think that Matsuzaka's norm is 4 runs over 6-7 innings?

[TheKilo]

 

I still think, even with a 5.5 game lead, the Yankees are the better team when it comes to the Red Sox. Conventional wisdom states that all teams should expect three major injuries over the course of a season. Not counting Pavano, the Yankees have had two, Hughes and Karstens. I figure their luck should be getting better, and yours to come down a bit.

 

You think the Yankees are the better team? I'm shocked, really I am.

 

Major injuries? You lost a guy who gave you one, ONE good start and a guy who was filler until Mussina came back anyway.

 

What a joke. Major injuries my ass.

[CrespoBlows]

Even the Red Sox FO is not crying poverty on this one' date=' so why are you crying it for them?[/quote']

 

Who said anything about poverty? It's absolute insanity to give a 45 year old pitcher, $30 million dollars. The luxury tax just adds to the list of negatives.

 

Yes and comparative strength or weakness is all that matters in a competition... right?

 

No, you said the Red Sox had gotten weaker. That's like saying the Yankees got weaker because the Red Sox signed Free Agent X. That isn't true. If the Yankees had taken Clemens away from the Red Sox, the yes, the Red Sox would have gotten weaker, but that isn't the case.

[a700hitter]

My personal belief is that Clemens is a better pitcher for this season. Dice-K has shown me nothing so far to think he is an elite pitcher. A 5.45 ERA with a 1.32 whip is nothing to be excited about in my book. I see Clemens as a 3.90-4.10 ERA pitcher over 6 innings' date=' so basically, he will give up 2.5 runs a game for the Yankees in 5-6 innings. I'll take that over Matsuzaka's 4 runs over 6-7 innings any day.[/quote']Matsuzaka's incredible wild streaks do no inspire me with confidence. If I had to pick one guy for this year only, I'd go with the Rocket.

[Mr Crunchy]

kei

dr han

dear brother numpsie has forgiven me

[TGov]

IMO... Clemens spit in the face of Boston...

He went to the enemy...

He doesn't need the money and he's getting WAY to much money, 28 Mil? ARod's getting 26 for a FULL year, and he earns it sorry to say...

1 pitcher isn't going to help a team that much, you still have 4 more spots you need to fill... and no one knows how good he still is...

 

Over paid, Over Hyped... I think he'll be a good pitcher, but not great, anymore...

I would have been pissed if the Red Sox spent 28 mil on Clemens...

(Ya know the Astros need starting pitching too, he should have went there, probably won't win a WS though...)

 

so, Welcome BACK to the biggest Rivalry in sports Clemens... It sucks you're on the Yankees but it should be an entertaining year...

 

EDIT: one other thing that I realized, The Yankees are STILL trying to buy Another World Series... PERFECT EXAMPLE, Roger Clemens...

[TheKilo]

We don't know. You can't conclude that' date=' because we didn't offer comparable money. This is a baseless rationalization.[/quote']

 

Where do you draw the line in the sand then? If we did offer comparable money, do you think the Yankees would stand idly by?

 

If Clemens was offered equal money in both areas, where do you think he goes?

 

 

Conjecture and rationalization. Apparantly, the FO drew that line at $4 million less than they offered last year.

 

And I applaud them for that. You want to pay $1 million per start for a pitcher who can't get out of the 6th?

 

It's not really 20-20 hindsight, because we don't know what he would have done if we had made a comparable offer. It is more of a rationalization. We offered him $18 million prorated which is $4 million less than last years offer. At the prorated salary offered, we'd be giving ihim about $12 million for 4 months. Did anyone think that $12 million would get the job done?

 

Is the upgrade over Tavarez worth $12 million? Is the upgrade over Lester worth $12 million?

 

For this year, I'd take my chances with the aging HOFer rather than the kid recovering from cancer.

 

That's your call. A 45 year old pitcher who can't throw past 5 innings for $30 mil. Sound business decision.

 

BTW, he's going to end up costing the Yankees about $24 million, I think.

 

edit - BTW, comparable =/= equal.

[a700hitter]

Who said anything about poverty? It's absolute insanity to give a 45 year old pitcher' date=' $30 million dollars. The luxury tax just adds to the list of negatives.[/quote']The Red Sox are not making the argument about money. Forgive my use of the word "poverty." You are making the argument for them. They al least do not have the chutzpah to make the argument after spending $70 million on J.D. Drew.

 

No' date=' you said the Red Sox had gotten weaker. That's like saying the Yankees got weaker because the Red Sox signed Free Agent X. That isn't true. If the Yankees had taken Clemens away from the Red Sox, the yes, the Red Sox would have gotten weaker, but that isn't the case.[/quote']I just said that I meant it comparatively. How much clarification do you want? Are you trying to tell be what I meant? Let me clarify for you.

 

This move makes the Red Sox weaker and the Yankees stronger comparatively speaking

[CrespoBlows]

IMO... Clemens spit in the face of Boston...

 

No, he went to the place that offered more money. If Boston had offered $28.1 million, he would have signed with the Red Sox.

 

He went to the enemy...

 

Money.

 

He doesn't need the money

 

 

How can you say that? You're going to pass up $18.667 million, over $9 or $10?

 

and he's getting WAY to much money,

 

Which is why he signed with New York.

[Gom]

Matsuzaka's incredible wild streaks do no inspire me with confidence. If I had to pick one guy for this year only' date=' I'd go with the Rocket.[/quote']

 

There is no doubt that if you gave me the choice of Matsuzaka or Clemens in the offseason, I would have taken Matsuzaka. Even now, Matsuzaka will be a solid pitcher when Clemens is playing charity softball, so I would take him over Roger for the future. Just for this year, though, I think Clemens will be a better pitcher.

 

Keep in mind, pitchers usually have the advantage when they have never faced the batter before.

 

Matsuzaka reminds me of a poor man's Mike Mussina, obviously in his younger days. A lot of pitches, not tremendously overpowering, a thinking man's pitcher. He doesn't have the talent Mussina had, not even close [i'm not talking about his Yankee years, I'm talking about his dominance when with the O's].

 

The fact that his BABIP is higher than normal shows that he is probably a better pitcher than he has shown so far. However, once the league learns to lay off his splitter/sinker, he may have some trouble if he doesn't adjust.

 

Back to the Clemens signing, I don't think he would have gone to Boston even if the money was close. He is more loved in New York than in Boston by the fan base, which still harbors some resentment over him coming to the Yankees. He has his best friend in Pettitte, players like Jeter and Mo he liked to play with, and a manager that he loves to play for. He has a better lineup to back him up, and when healthy and rested, the two pens are pretty much a wash.

 

Why exactly would he go back to Boston? To break a 100 year old record and to play with players he doesn't know, for a manager he doesn't know, to fans who don't love him as much? To have to fight with Schilling [whom he doesn't like, reportedly] for the spotlight?

 

I don't buy it. All things considered even, I didn't think the Sox had a good chance. It was a two horse race, and I really thought he was going back to Houston. Glad I was wrong.

[TheKilo]

The Red Sox are not making the argument about money. Forgive my use of the word "poverty." You are making the argument for them. They al least do not have the chutzpah to make the argument after spending $70 million on J.D. Drew.

 

I just said that I meant it comparatively. How much clarification do you want? Are you trying to tell be what I meant? Let me clarify for you.

 

This move makes the Red Sox weaker and the Yankees stronger comparatively speaking

 

This does not make the Red Sox weaker. Nothing was taken away from them. Comparatively speaking, the Red Sox are the same and the Yankees are slightly stronger.

[BoSox21]

How in the f*** are the Red Sox weaker cause of this? How did the roster change from yesterday? This is like people giving Schilling s*** for saying the Sox don't need Clemens. Well, he's right, they don't. This team, if it stays healthy, is good enough to win the World Series thus justifying the fact that they don't NEED him the way the Yankees do

[ARod2212]

This is interesting.

[a700hitter]

Where do you draw the line in the sand then? If we did offer comparable money' date=' do you think the Yankees would stand idly by?[/quote']I don't know but neither do you, because we sat idly by.

If Clemens was offered equal money in both areas' date=' where do you think he goes?[/quote']Clemens is the ultimate mercenary. He goes where there is more money. If the money is comparable, I don't know where he goes, and we will never know, because our offer was nore than one-third less than the Yankee offer.

And I applaud them for that. You want to pay $1 million per start for a pitcher who can't get out of the 6th?

or one that walks 4 to 5 men every outing like Dice K. Between the bid and his salary' date=' it is costing the Red Sox almost $2 million per start this year.

Is the upgrade over Tavarez worth $12 million?

Yes, are you kidding?

Is the upgrade over Lester worth $12 million?

For this year? What do you think?

That's your call. A 45 year old pitcher who can't throw past 5 innings for $30 mil. Sound business decision.

Bad baseball decision. I don't have a very good handle on their financial condition' date=' and neither do you or the Players Union, because baseball steadfastly refuses to open its books.

BTW, he's going to end up costing the Yankees about $24 million, I think.

...and not one Yankee fan will pay $1 more for a ticket this year than if he had not been signed.

 

Any more questions? Why don't we just tip our hats to the Yankees FO for doing the right thing for their team and their fans and just hope that we spank Roger and he is not enough to beat us. Everything else is an excuse or rationalization, really sour grapes and it makes us look like whining *******s.

[Gyroball]

We all knew this was going to happen. As bad as they are right now, we also all know that they'll be there battling us at the top of the division come september.

[TheKilo]

 

Any more questions? Why don't we just tip our hats to the Yankees FO for doing the right thing for their team and their fans and just hope that we spank Roger and he is not enough to beat us. Everything else is an excuse or rationalization, really sour grapes and it makes us look like whining *******s.

 

And if he does get rocked, what d you say then? That they still should have signed him?

[CrespoBlows]

The Red Sox are not making the argument about money. Forgive my use of the word "poverty." You are making the argument for them. They al least do not have the chutzpah to make the argument after spending $70 million on J.D. Drew.

 

PAY ATTENTION MOTHER f***ER, BECAUSE I'M ONLY GOING TO DO THIS ONE MORE TIME

 

2007 RED SOX PAYROLL = $143 MILLION

 

LUXURY TAX = $140 MILLION

 

PENALTY FOR EXCEEDING THE LUXURY TAX = $1.2 MILLION

 

The Red Sox don't have the additional wiggle room to continue spending past the luxury tax. We would have to invest $28-$30 million for FOUR MONTHS of Roger Clemens. NOTE - CLEMENS AVERAGED UNDER 6 INNINGS PER START LAST YEAR IN THE NL, WHAT THE f*** MAKES YOU THINK HE'S GOING TO EXCEED THAT IN THE AL WITH THE DH.

 

FORGET THE f***ING LUXURY TAX, DOES ANYONE HERE SERIOUSLY BELIEVE THAT GIVING ROGER CLEMENS IN BETWEEN $28 and $30 MILLION DOLLARS IS A GOOD INVESTMENT?

 

Oh, just you?

 

Seriously, I like your idea of trading the entire farm system before investing that kind of money into a 45 year old pitcher.

 

 

 

I just said that I meant it comparatively. How much clarification do you want? Are you trying to tell be what I meant? Let me clarify for you.

 

This move makes the Red Sox weaker and the Yankees stronger comparatively speaking

 

OK, BUT BEFORE WE WERE TALKING IN TERMS OF ABSOLUTE ADVANTAGE, WHICH IS DIFFERENT THAN COMPARATIVE ADVANTAGE. YOU EVEN THREW IN THE DAMON COMPARISON FOR THE 1,000 TIME, WHICH WOULD INDICATE THAT YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT ABSOLUTE ADVANTAGE. FOR THE LOVE OF CHRIST BE CONSISTENT. K THNX!

[ARod2212]

Also, I'd like to note that my returning to the board has far more to do with the Rangers season ending than the Yankees signing Clemens, playing better, etc. Baseball seasons starts now for me, much later than usual.

[a700hitter]

This does not make the Red Sox weaker. Nothing was taken away from them. Comparatively speaking' date=' the Red Sox are the same and the Yankees are slightly stronger.[/quote']When speaking comparatively, if both teams start out equal and some move is made to change the equilibrium, one team has gotten comparatively stronger and the other has gotten comparativley weaker. I am sorry that you can not grasp that concept.

[ARod2212]

People, what is up with this payroll arguing? We overpay for Damon, Clemens, Pettitte, you overpay for Matsuzaka, Lugo, Drew. Who cares?

 

The only thing that matters is what is happening on the field. Right now the Red Sox are playing fantastic baseball, that should be the primary focus of your energy.

 

Unless you're an accountant, cut the payroll crap. Let's just play ball.

[TheKilo]

When speaking comparatively' date=' if both teams start out equal and some move is made to change the equilibrium, one team has gotten comparatively stronger and the other has gotten comparativley weaker. I am sorry that you can not grasp that concept.[/quote']

 

:lol: :harhar: :dance: :dance: :wtf: :shock:

 

 

In terms of the two teams, does the Yankees getting Clemens make the Red Sox weaker?

 

Comparatively, maybe. Absolutely, no.

[a700hitter]

No, he went to the place that offered more money. If Boston had offered $28.1 million, he would have signed with the Red Sox.

 

 

 

 

How can you say that? You're going to pass up $18.667 million, over $9 or $10?

 

 

 

Which is why he signed with New York.

I thought he was going to the Yankees regardless of Money?

[CrespoBlows]

I thought he was going to the Yankees regardless of Money?

 

Pose that question to someone who believes that.

[Gom]

I don't know but neither do you, because we sat idly by.Clemens is the ultimate mercenary. He goes where there is more money. If the money is comparable, I don't know where he goes, and we will never know, because our offer was nore than one-third less than the Yankee offer.or one that walks 4 to 5 men every outing like Dice K. Between the bid and his salary, it is costing the Red Sox almost $2 million per start this year. Yes, are you kidding? For this year? What do you think? Bad baseball decision. I don't have a very good handle on their financial condition, and neither do you or the Players Union, because baseball steadfastly refuses to open its books....and not one Yankee fan will pay $1 more for a ticket this year than if he had not been signed.

 

Any more questions? Why don't we just tip our hats to the Yankees FO for doing the right thing for their team and their fans and just hope that we spank Roger and he is not enough to beat us. Everything else is an excuse or rationalization, really sour grapes and it makes us look like whining *******s.

 

Thank you. Finally, someone else who gets it. Thank you for showing more class than 95% of the posters here. It's ironic how the same people who were jumping for joy when you signed Matsuzaka are crying in their soup over Clemens. Thanks for taking the high road, a700.

 

Yankees Sox, one game playoff for the AL East title, loser out of the playoffs because the Tigers got the wild card wrapped up. Clemens versus Matsuzaka.

 

Can you imagine?