April 27th @ New York

[CrespoBlows]

How can you not see that Coco is 100x better in CF than WMP. Are we watching the same games? Have I been watching a different CF making spectacular catches night after night' date=' while the guy I 'believe' is WMP misplaying balls for HR, etc. Am I really seeing things...[/quote']

 

I. Don't. Care. What. You. Think. You. Are. Seeing.

 

Stats and Facts > You.

 

Remember, stats record performances.

[TedWilliams101]

I am taking it with a grain of salt, his career numbers back up the fact that he can't hit off-speed pitches. There is a reason why most pitchers aren't giving him a fastball. I don't care how good he is at hitting fastballs. Pitchers no that he can't offspeed stuff, so he ain't gonna get very many pitches that he can do anything with. That is the point. Unless he proves that he can lay off balls and hit offspeed stuff, he isn't going to be very usefull cause pitchers ain't throwing him fastballs anymore.

[Rdsxmbnt]

phew we made it

[mtbykr]

Nice job Timlin....i'm still nervous though when he's in there!

[example1]

Did you look at the numbers before stating that? Is .013 points of OBP worth giving up .055 points of SLG? I know OBP rates higher' date=' but it's at about 1.7:1, not 4:1.[/quote']

 

They are very close, but I hadn't done the particular calculation. If those are the numbers I'm going by, and the OBP and SLG are that close I'm taking the OBP. If it was a huge difference (with SLG higher) I would think otherwise.

 

Again, none of these numbers are very impressive and in each of their best seasons they put up similar OBP and SLG numbers.

 

I am also skeptical of the fielding stats CrespoBlows offered. I know they are legitimate numbers, but it just doesn't seem possible to me. I would much rather have a guy with better speed than the guy who... well, what does Pena do in the field? For a big guy he actually has good speed.

[MANNYHOF24]

Great inning by Timlin. Jima in the 8th then Papelbon anyone?

[Rdsxmbnt]

Great inning by Timlin. Jima in the 8th then Papelbon anyone?

 

hopefully

[CrespoBlows]

I am taking it with a grain of salt' date=' his career numbers back up the fact that he can't hit off-speed pitches. There is a reason why most pitchers aren't giving him a fastball. I don't care how good he is at hitting fastballs. Pitchers no that he can't offspeed stuff, so he ain't gonna get very many pitches that he can do anything with. That is the point. Unless he proves that he can lay off balls and hit offspeed stuff, he isn't going to be very usefull cause pitchers ain't throwing him fastballs anymore.[/quote']

 

Eventually, you're going to have to back up what you say. Until you do, I see no further point in debating the point.

[ORS]

I am taking it with a grain of salt' date=' his career numbers back up the fact that he can't hit off-speed pitches. There is a reason why most pitchers aren't giving him a fastball. I don't care how good he is at hitting fastballs. Pitchers no that he can't offspeed stuff, so he ain't gonna get very many pitches that he can do anything with. That is the point. Unless he proves that he can lay off balls and hit offspeed stuff, he isn't going to be very usefull cause pitchers ain't throwing him fastballs anymore.[/quote']

Wait, I thought they didn't know him? Which is it Ted? Your argument has holes. Start bailing.

[BoSox34]

Gravity was really on our side with that play.

 

UNLEASH THE SECRET WEAPON: OKAJIMAAAHH.

[MANNYHOF24]

I love watching Crespo and ORS rip people's arguements apart, unless it's me of course.

[example1]

I. Don't. Care. What. You. Think. You. Are. Seeing.

 

Stats and Facts > You.

 

Remember, stats record performances.

 

Fielding stats are also widely considered to be the most faulty and difficult to measure. Not arguing against you (because I like stats too :thumbsup: ) but I can see the argument here from a 'scouting' point of view.

[CrespoBlows]

Wait' date=' I thought they didn't know him? Which is it Ted? Your argument has holes. Start bailing.[/quote']

 

No, but I saw Crisp run real fast once so taht means he is better than Wily Schmo Pena. Oh, n i saw pena make and error so he is bad that means crisp is better.

[example1]

No' date=' but I saw Crisp run real fast once so taht means he is better than Wily Schmo Pena. Oh, n i saw pena make and error so he is bad that means crisp is better.[/quote']

 

Unless you can quantify 'better' it is a tough argument either way. Would you rather have Pena in CF than Coco, from a defensive standpoint?

[example1]

Alright Pedroia!!

[Rdsxmbnt]

dped with the double

[CrespoBlows]

Fielding stats are also widely considered to be the most faulty and difficult to measure. Not arguing against you (because I like stats too :thumbsup: ) but I can see the argument here from a 'scouting' point of view.

 

They are faulty, but they seem to be accurate. I think EVERYONE on the board would agree that Pena is a 50X better CF, then he is a RF, and that shows up in the stats, too.

 

CF - +9

RF - (-)14

 

Coco Crisp has the same trend. I remember many people touting him as a GG LF in Cleveland, which was probably correct.

 

LF - +20

CF - (-)19

[example1]

"lined by the dive of Rodriguez"

 

What a night for Lugo.

[Rdsxmbnt]

Lugo swinging the bat well tonight

[kyahbean]

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p32/kyahbean/Smilies/h5.gif

[ORS]

I like this Vizcaino guy. He's like a run dispensing machine.

[MANNYHOF24]

The Yankees have to be devestated right now.

[CrespoBlows]

Unless you can quantify 'better' it is a tough argument either way. Would you rather have Pena in CF than Coco' date=' from a defensive standpoint?[/quote']

 

No, Crisp is the better fielder.

 

I just don't think the gap is as big as TW103, says it is.

[TedWilliams101]

For fielding stats, unless you are an infielder, I don't look to much into them. You have to actually watch them play. Spectacular plays don't show up in stats. Coco has the range and glove to make spectacular plays while Pena doesn't. And for errors sake, Crisp has a lifetime .990 fielding percentage, while WMP has a .974 fielding percentage and a .985% in CF.

[example1]

They are faulty, but they seem to be accurate. I think EVERYONE on the board would agree that Pena is a 50X better CF, then he is a RF, and that shows up in the stats, too.

 

CF - +9

RF - (-)14

 

Coco Crisp has the same trend. I remember many people touting him as a GG LF in Cleveland, which was probably correct.

 

LF - +20

CF - (-)19

 

I've seen the numbers, and I largely agree with them--in terms of their difference between positions. However, I don't think the CF number for either seems accurate. I would be willing to bet, after having watched nearly every red sox game for the past 4-5 years, that Crisp and Pena are AT LEAST equal in CF and over the long run I'm betting that Coco chases down and catches more balls than Pena. Pena often looks very uncomfortable out there.

 

I would be interested to see how he does in LF. In any case, I don't think there's ANY doubt about Ellsbury's skills as a CFer.

 

EDIT: before anyone is a smart ass, I realize the Sox haven't had Coco and Pena for 4-5 years. I was simply implying that, while stats count happenings in a game, they are used because most scouts don't watch every game to get a better idea of who the player is. That's all.

[mtbykr]

Is it just me or does Damon look like donnelly pitching when he tries to get the ball back in quick?

[Rdsxmbnt]

I've seen the numbers, and I largely agree with them--in terms of their difference between positions. However, I don't think the CF number for either seems accurate. I would be willing to bet, after having watched nearly every red sox game for the past 4-5 years, that Crisp and Pena are AT LEAST equal in CF and over the long run I'm betting that Coco chases down and catches more balls than Pena. Pena often looks very uncomfortable out there.

 

I would be interested to see how he does in LF. In any case, I don't think there's ANY doubt about Ellsbury's skills as a CFer.

 

ya definetly, Ellsbury is a fantastic defensive CFer

[example1]

No, Crisp is the better fielder.

 

I just don't think the gap is as big as TW103, says it is.

 

Oh, okay. I don't think it is either, but I also don't think it is as wide as the +9/-20 split indicates. I would think it more like +12/+3 (crisp/pena respectively). I think it is a significant difference but not a devistating one for Pena's abillity to play CF. His power trumps any skill that crisp has, but I like crisps other tools better.

[Youk Of The Nation]

Is it just me or does Damon look like donnelly pitching when he tries to get the ball back in quick?

 

 

No, Donnelly can throw further.

[TGov]

Anyone watching on NESN, Jerry Remy is getting pissed at Vizcaino, it's funny