$40M For What?

[Dana Kiecker]

Lets compare the 04 $120M team to this 06 $160M team..

 

And see if the money was spent in a wise fashion or foolishly..

 

Lineup...

 

LF Manny 04 vs. Manny 07.. Wash

CF Damon vs. Crisp.. Damon wins

RF Trot vs. Drew.. close to a wash but we shall see about Drew

3b Mueller vs. Lowell.. Mueller easily

SS OCab/Garciapara vs. Lugo.. close to a wash and that isnt easy to say..

2b The Stoner vs. Pedroia.. too early to call a wash

1b Youks vs the 04 Millar.. wash

C The 04 Tek vs. the 07 Tek.. too easy the younger 04 Tek wins

 

So there you go.. And my comments were deffinately leaning more towards giving the 07 team credit for the unknown..

 

So that is three spots defensivelly and at bat that are definately worse than the 04 team.. so where did the money go?

 

Thats 33 percent less quality for 33 percent more in cost..

 

Thoughts and comments?:dunno:

[CrespoBlows]

Lets compare the 04 $120M team to this 06 $160M team..

 

And see if the money was spent in a wise fashion or foolishly..

 

Lineup...

 

LF Manny 04 vs. Manny 06.. Wash

CF Damon vs. Crisp.. Damon wins

RF Trot vs. Drew.. close to a wash but we shall see about Drew

3b Mueller vs. Lowell.. Mueller easily

SS OCab/Garciapara vs. Lugo.. close to a wash and that isnt easy to say..

2b The Stoner vs. Pedroia.. too early to call a wash

1b Youks vs the 04 Millar.. wash

C The 04 Tek vs. the 06 Tek.. too easy the younger 04 Tek wins

 

So there you go.. And my comments were deffinately leaning more towards giving the 06 team credit for the unknown..

 

So that is three spots defensivelly and at bat that are definately worse than the 04 team.. so where did the money go?

 

Thats 33 percent less quality for 33 percent more in cost..

 

Thoughts and comments?:dunno:

 

A couple thoughts.

 

I know you don't like JD Drew, but he is a massive upgrade over Trot Nixon.

 

2004 Drew EQA - .336 (.260 is considered average)

2004 Nixon EQA - .301

 

2004 Drew WARP2 - 9.8

2003 Nixon WARP2 - 6.5 (Nixon's best year)

 

You also missed the Red Sox biggest splash, which was Matsuzaka.

 

The Red Sox payroll is also only $143 million, not $160 million. http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2004/12/boston-red-sox.html

 

Don't get me wrong, the Red Sox front office has been terrible the last two offseasons, but I think we should be as fair as possible to them.

[Dana Kiecker]

Good points.. I hadnt got to the pitching staff yet.. although I fear my point will be proved even moreso.. also the 50 M just to negotiate with DK.. is part of the 160 M. figure . as for JD drew.. I was a huge anti-Trot fan.. but you may be right..

 

Its interesting to think about.

[RedSoxRooter]

It's funny you don't talk much about the pitching.

 

Schilling vs Schilling - 04 schill

Pedro vs Matsuzaka - Dice-K. 14 wins is almost a given.

Lowe vs Beckett - Beckett

Wake vs Wake - wash

Foulke vs Paps - Paps/wash

 

"RF Trot vs. Drew.. close to a wash but we shall see about Drew"

Are you an ass? Oh, right, you are.

 

Drew will play more than 48 games this year I don't care how injured he gets. He'll hit more than 6 hrs and have more than 23 rbi.

 

"3b Mueller vs. Lowell.. Mueller easily"

Mueller only played 110 games in 04. He wasn't as gold glove as much as Lowell is.. 283/12/57rbi was Mueller in 04. Lowell, even in an off year will be more productive than that.

 

Oh, and you suck more now than you did in '04. Not even close.

[Dana Kiecker]

Actually it was Millar/Trot combo in right.. stop the name calling sugar bear.. this isnt the proper forum for it.

[RedSoxRooter]

You're the one comparing Trot to Drew, not me. Dipshit.

[Dana Kiecker]

ok Schilling 04 vs Blowhard 07.. Curt 04

Petey vs. Beckett.. Petey

Lowevs. DK .. DK

Wake 04 vs. Wake 07.. Wake 04 his catcher is a hinderance in 06

 

Arroyo vs . Tavares.. unknown

 

So thats 3 out of 5 that are better..

 

Ill go to the bullpen next.. but i have to lick my wounds from redsoxrooters uncalled for verbal attacks

[RedSoxRooter]

Yeah, while you're at it, you can lick my ass.

[Dana Kiecker]

Just because your dad did that to you doesnt make it right.. now smahten up .. and try to keep it Sox related you... fat bastard

[RedSoxRooter]

I'm just waiting for you to make your point, you useless sack of s***.

[Dana Kiecker]

Ok my point is Theo et al made some bad moves.. do you disagree or agree its that simple friend..

 

You f***in ballbag munchin cum guzzling retard.

[RedSoxRooter]

So no point made. Just an agenda?

[example1]

There's no point in talking about comparing payrolls between 04 and 06. If the salary cap (tax) had been higher than the 04 Sox would have spent more. They push the cap but don't like to go over it by much--if they can avoid it.

 

Furthermore, we're 4 games into the season. WHy not wait until mid-season to make a comparison between teams? You don't know what Pedroia is going to do, you don't know what Drew is going to do, Crisp is a question-mark, Youkilis is a question mark, Lugo is a question mark. Varitek is worse, Manny won't be BETTER, Papi will probably be a wash, comparing Lowell and Mueller is about equal (as they both bring solid talents to the field). Papelbon is a better closer than Foulke, AND he is likely going to be around for years and years. Also, the farm system is in better shape than it was in 04 with the two top drafts the past two seasons.

 

To say that the FO had an "awful" off-season is completely absurd. Imagine Matsuzaka on the Yankees. Just think about it for a second. A 26 year old who is likely one of the top 5 pitchers in the world, pitching for the Yankees against the sox. Now the Yankes are reduced to HAVING to TRY to pay Clemens a prorated 25m or so just to bolster their staff.

 

Instead, the Red Sox have a guy who is likely to be their ace for 6 seasons at a good price and according to all reports they are sitll in the Clemens sweepstakes.

 

Nobody in the baseball world--aside from Theo and crew--could envision having paid 51m for a posting fee. People called it crazy. Now, just one start in nobody would argue that. He's the real deal and only ONE team had the balls to get him.

 

40m for what? How about fielding a team that, by all accounts, should be competitive for this year and next and the next few. I'm sure there is some sense of relief in insulting the FO's ability to spend 40m dollars, but it is a fruitless waste of time.

 

Again, without Dave Roberts' stolen base you wouldn't even have brought up this comparison. The only thing they can do is field a team that may win. Beyond that it's all in the stars--so to speak.

[Dana Kiecker]

my point one more time f***stick... real slow..

 

The 04 team was more talented than the 07 team for 40 M dollars less... you can argue against that point.. agree with that point ..stick the point up your ass or whatever.. who knows you may even want to DISCUSS and post a MESSAGE on this MESSAGE BOARD.. about the POINT I made, or you can continue to be a retard and post again..and again gems like ...

 

"Yah dickface whats your point.. huh huh.. Im too ignorant to read a post but your a dick.. whats your point huh huh.."

[Dana Kiecker]

"To say that the FO had an "awful" off-season is completely absurd."

 

 

Im not sure I ever said that.. maybe you should reread.

[example1]

Dude, are you talking about comparing the 04 team to the 06 team or the '07 team? I thought you said "THIS" above, referring to the current team. But then I noticed you said the '06 team. Obviously the 04 team was better.

 

It is kind of weird to be making claims about the 04 team being better than the 07 team however.

[example1]

"To say that the FO had an "awful" off-season is completely absurd."

 

 

Im not sure I ever said that.. maybe you should reread.

 

 

It wasn't you, it was crespoblows and he said "terrible".

[RedSoxRooter]

Oh wait, I thought you were comparing the '07 team to the '04 team. My bad.

 

Drew wasn't on the '06 team. Neither was Lugo. Were you even watching?

[Dana Kiecker]

For the record.. I dont have any agenda against or for the Sox.. Im a fan.. but also a fan for 30 years.. Ive seen crap on the field that was "built" allegedly as a "playoff team" turn out to be just that , crap. You guys can be living in fantasyland on marshmallow lane.. thats ok.. but whats not ok .. is to behoodwinked..

 

In my opinion the 03 team was better than the 04 team.. And that was all pre-season vibes for me.. I knew those teams were loaded..PRESEASON .. I dont have the same feeling about this team..

 

Is that an okay feeling to have? Does that make me not the Sox fan you guys are?

[Dana Kiecker]

Yes I meant 07.. sorry

[example1]

For the record.. I dont have any agenda against or for the Sox.. Im a fan.. but also a fan for 30 years.. Ive seen crap on the field that was "built" allegedly as a "playoff team" turn out to be just that , crap. You guys can be living in fantasyland on marshmallow lane.. thats ok.. but whats not ok .. is to behoodwinked..

 

In my opinion the 03 team was better than the 04 team.. And that was all pre-season vibes for me.. I knew those teams were loaded..PRESEASON .. I dont have the same feeling about this team..

 

Is that an okay feeling to have? Does that make me not the Sox fan you guys are?

 

So you felt better about a team without a closer and without Schilling than you did with a team that had the same guys minus those two All-Stars? That's weird.

 

To say that you "knew" something based on vibes is really just revisionist history. How much money did you put on it? Did you bet your house and entire income on something you knew?

 

I think it is really bold to make too many claims about teams that haven't really played. Your argument about payroll discrepency between 04 and 06 would have been valid. I would pay ANYTHING to have Matsuzaka on this team instead of the Yankees.

 

Do you not have a certain "feeling" about him too? What's your sense? (seriously, not in the mocking 'spidey sense' kind of way )

[RedSoxRooter]

For the record.. I dont have any agenda against or for the Sox.. Im a fan.. but also a fan for 30 years.. Ive seen crap on the field that was "built" allegedly as a "playoff team" turn out to be just that , crap. You guys can be living in fantasyland on marshmallow lane.. thats ok.. but whats not ok .. is to behoodwinked..

 

In my opinion the 03 team was better than the 04 team.. And that was all pre-season vibes for me.. I knew those teams were loaded..PRESEASON .. I dont have the same feeling about this team..

 

Is that an okay feeling to have? Does that make me not the Sox fan you guys are?

 

I've been a Sox fan for 25 years, and your point is? The '03 team had the best offense I've ever seen, and they failed. Theo and the trio brought in Schilling and Foulke and we won the WS in '04.

So again, your point is what? You seem to have changed the original point of the thread.

[Dana Kiecker]

Those teams were loaded..

 

This team is not.

 

Face it.. and argue the lineups not the strawman

[Dana Kiecker]

You guys just want to hatchet me down.. for whatever reason..

 

Thats fine.. there has only been one solid response position by position to my original post .. and that was by CrespoBlows..

 

So 24 posts and finally a post in response that is quality..

 

You guys wonder why I think most of you are chump fanboys?

[RedSoxRooter]

You guys just want to hatchet me down.. for whatever reason..

 

The reason is you are a f***ing idiot with no baseball knowledge and you have an agenda. Nobody takes you seriously. That's the reason.

[example1]

Those teams were loaded..

 

This team is not.

 

Face it.. and argue the lineups not the strawman

 

I beg to differ. Ask 90% of other teams if they think this team is loaded and they will say "Yes". Do you think the Dodgers liked losing their best hitter to the Red Sox over the offseason? Do you really think that Kevin Millar was some "special" hall-of-fame type player? I certainly do not. They hit a lot of HRs that season and scored a lot of runs. More than any team since the 1927 Yankees. Do you expect that type of production to just come around based on average or even above-average acquisations by the FO?

 

To me that was a once in a lifetime type offense that won't be replicated by anyone for a long time. As such a long-term baseball fan I'm sure you're aware of how rare that was and how, in that light, its not really fair to make a comparison.

[CrespoBlows]

Bronson Arroyo was the Red Sox third best starter in 2004, so you have to include him in the comparison between the two.

 

If I had to break down the rotations between the two it would look like:

 

Number one starter

 

2004 Schilling vs. 2007 Matsuzaka

 

Schilling is no longer the ace of the rotation. The best pitcher is clearly Matsuzaka. Anyway, in 2004, Schilling posted a 150 ERA+, which was good enough for second in the AL. I absolutely loved what I saw from Dice-K against KC, and I think he'll be a top five starter in the AL, but he won't match what Schilling did.

 

Edge: Slight 2004 Schilling

 

Number two starter

 

2004 Martinez vs. 2007 Beckett

 

Pedro slumped badly from his 2003 form in 2004. He posted a 125 ERA+, a 3.90 ERA, and a 1.17 WHIP, which is pretty damn good by anyone's standard. I expect Beckett to match these numbers. He's shown he's bettered his curve and changeup, and is learning to mix them in. I've got Beckett posting an ERA slightly below 4.00. There's no significant difference between the two.

 

Edge: Even

 

Number three starter

 

2004 Arroyo vs. 2007 Schilling

 

Bronson Arroyo was very good in 2004; he posted a 121 ERA+, which was five points higher than Schilling's 116 ERA+ in '06. I think everyone expects Schilling to regress a little bit in 2007, and he confirmed it, when he said he's pitching to contact. (See: more hits, higher WHIP, less K's) If Schilling puts up an ERA around 4.30, I'll be pleased.

 

Edge: 2004 Arroyo

 

Number four starter

 

2004 Wakefield vs. 2007 Wakefield

 

Wakefield was exactly average in 2004, posting a 100 ERA+. He hasn't really moved off that number the last three years, and I don't expect him to change that any time soon. He may be the most consistent Red Sox starter every year. I'm tempted to make the 2004 Wakefield the favorite, because his battery mate didn't suck nearly as bad as he does now, but that isn't fair.

 

Edge: Even

 

Number five starter

 

2004 Lowe vs. 2007 Tavarez

 

Derek Lowe was terrible in 2004, posting a 90 ERA+, why they didn't punt him out of the rotation is beyond me. Tavarez was surprisingly competent in 2006, posting a 103 ERA+, but you can't be average if your WHIP is 1.56. The advantage of the 2007 Red Sox is that they won't allow Tavarez to suck as long as they allowed Lowe to. Jon Lester will replace Tavarez in July, and will represent a huge upgrade.

 

Edge: Even for the first two months, Lester the next three.

 

So, I have it at:

 

2004 Red Sox - 2

2007 Red Sox - 1/2

[example1]

You guys just want to hatchet me down.. for whatever reason..

 

Thats fine.. there has only been one solid response position by position to my original post .. and that was by CrespoBlows..

 

So 24 posts and finally a post in response that is quality..

 

You guys wonder why I think most of you are chump fanboys?

 

My original response was that it's not really possible to compare lineups (using stats) for a team that played 162 games and a team that has played 4. My second point was that, despite your pleas for intellegent replies, you started the post asking for comparisons with the 06 teams, by accident.

 

If you want intelligent responses start with intelligent questions. You mislabeled the team in the first place, so the so-called 24 posts is misleading, given that a number of them were to identify WHICH TEAM you wanted a comparison to.

[Dana Kiecker]

The reason is you are a f***ing idiot with no baseball knowledge and you have an agenda. Nobody takes you seriously. That's the reason.

 

Kettle meet Pot..

[example1]

Bronson Arroyo was the Red Sox third best starter in 2004, so you have to include him in the comparison between the two.

 

If I had to break down the rotations between the two it would look like:

 

Number one starter

 

2004 Schilling vs. 2007 Matsuzaka

 

Schilling is no longer the ace of the rotation. The best pitcher is clearly Matsuzaka. Anyway, in 2004, Schilling posted a 150 ERA+, which was good enough for second in the AL. I absolutely loved what I saw from Dice-K against KC, and I think he'll be a top five starter in the AL, but he won't match what Schilling did.

 

Edge: Slight 2004 Schilling

 

Number two starter

 

2004 Martinez vs. 2007 Beckett

 

Pedro slumped badly from his 2003 form in 2004. He posted a 125 ERA+, a 3.90 ERA, and a 1.17 WHIP, which is pretty damn good by anyone's standard. I expect Beckett to match these numbers. He's shown he's bettered his curve and changeup, and is learning to mix them in. I've got Beckett posting an ERA slightly below 4.00. There's no significant difference between the two.

 

Edge: Even

 

Number three starter

 

2004 Arroyo vs. 2007 Schilling

 

Bronson Arroyo was very good in 2004; he posted a 121 ERA+, which was five points higher than Schilling's 116 ERA+ in '06. I think everyone expects Schilling to regress a little bit in 2007, and he confirmed it, when he said he's pitching to contact. (See: more hits, higher WHIP, less K's) If Schilling puts up an ERA around 4.30, I'll be pleased.

 

Edge: 2004 Arroyo

 

Number four starter

 

2004 Wakefield vs. 2007 Wakefield

 

Wakefield was exactly average in 2004, posting a 100 ERA+. He hasn't really moved off that number the last three years, and I don't expect him to change that any time soon. He may be the most consistent Red Sox starter every year. I'm tempted to make the 2004 Wakefield the favorite, because his battery mate didn't suck nearly as bad as he does now, but that isn't fair.

 

Edge: Even

 

Number five starter

 

2004 Lowe vs. 2007 Tavarez

 

Derek Lowe was terrible in 2004, posting a 90 ERA+, why they didn't punt him out of the rotation is beyond me. Tavarez was surprisingly competent in 2006, posting a 103 ERA+, but you can't be average if your WHIP is 1.56. The advantage of the 2007 Red Sox is that they won't allow Tavarez to suck as long as they allowed Lowe to. Jon Lester will replace Tavarez in July, and will represent a huge upgrade.

 

Edge: Even for the first two months, Lester the next three.

 

So, I have it at:

 

2004 Red Sox - 2

2007 Red Sox - 1/2

 

Good post. By the same logic I have the teams as just about equal. Lowe in 04 was horrible inconsistent and unpredictable. Tavarez is the same. Wakefield then and wakefield now are about equal (who knows what you'll get either day?)

 

The real question is each team's top 3.

 

Schilling 04 > Schilling 07

Pedro = Matsuzaka (with a big + for the fact that Matsuzaka is 26 and signed for 6 more years... not something to be forgotten in this discussion).

Beckett > Arroyo (which pitcher do you think most teams would want? Who would you want pitching in a big game?)

 

In those terms I see the pitching to be equal with a slight edge to the 07 team given its youth and long-term commitments to the team. Good post though CrespoBlows.

 

EDIT: Yes, I meant 07, not 06