Schilling rips backstabbing front office

[TheKilo]

Foulke was just as important as Schilling' date=' but when he declined and couldn't hold it together for a whole season we let him go.... no one was up in arms about that tho....[/quote']

 

Excellent point. IMO, Foulke was better than Schilling in the postseason in '04.

[Mr Crunchy]

Everyone stop looking at this from a fan perpective! If that was the persepective of the FO we have a bunch of 35+ yr olds playing for us. This is a buisness, and if you run a buisness on hopes and prayers your gonna fall flat on your face. Yes Id love to see Schilling finish his career in Boston for what he did in 04, but am not willing to hand him 13M+ for and over weight pitcher who is only good for half the season.

 

our dutch friend makes a good point about hopes and prayers and thats exactly what this team is once again built on....

hoping beckett will come around,hoping kato can pitch in the big boy league,hoping duddy pedroia can hit my weight,hoping coco crisp and jd drew will be healthy all year,hoping 1 of the 7 men in the bullpen can close and hoping our 1st basemen plays like he did in the 1st half of the year....

 

as my sainted grandmother said

s*** in 1 hand and hope in the other

see what fills 1st

 

ok

lets look at their business decisions since we won

i'll open with letting cabrerra walk

then paying renteria 19M to lead baseball in errors while hitting a robust .270....

then arroyo,the man who led baseball in innings pitched,,dumped after taking the home town discount for a 4th outfielder who has the plate patience of a junkie with a hot needle in his hands

100M invested in an unproven japanese player who hasnt gotten anyone in MLB out yet

75M in jd drew,nationally refered to as a team cancer and a pussy

nobody wanted him,nobody bid on him except us that i know of...

36M in julio lugo,a man who had a horrible 2nd half last season in place of the smoothest shortstop this town ever saw in agon

30M in beckett

a guy who had a good month in 2003 while making 9 dl trips and posting a 5.00 era last year while resembling the eric milton of the american league....

we only gave up the nl rookie of the year and a rookie who threw a no hitter for him

 

now

lets look at the bullpen

no

lets not

i feel like puking already after thinking about joelle piniero closing games for us with his svelt 6.5 era last summer....

 

lets just say that the entire f***ing season is based on a crap shoot as we post a 200M payroll

while our most proven commodity,curt schilling,is being asked to ""earn"" his 08 contract

 

what am i missing here??

i didnt bitch when petey walked,he was unreasonable and wanted out anyways

i didnt bitch when damon walked for the same reasons (till they gave drew more money)

i didnt bitch when they didnt offer derek lowe a contract despite his october heroics in 04

i bitched when they let loretta walk because he was cheap he was an allstar and the guy replacing him hit .089 in 85abs last year

 

im bitching about not giving schilling a 1 year extension after the money we gambled on men who probably wont earn it and certainly dont deserve it

 

and this is based on nothing but pure stats

never mind the intangibles that i havent addressed

[BSN07]

I'm not dutch BTW LOL I moved here from Florida and am originally from Maine( hence why im a Sox and Pats fan:) But thanks for seeing my point...LOL

[Fried Neckbones]

our dutch friend makes a good point about hopes and prayers and thats exactly what this team is once again built on....

hoping beckett will come around,hoping kato can pitch in the big boy league,hoping duddy pedroia can hit my weight,hoping coco crisp and jd drew will be healthy all year,hoping 1 of the 7 men in the bullpen can close and hoping our 1st basemen plays like he did in the 1st half of the year....

 

Hopes and prayers ... and good scouting and projections. Beckett threw next to nothing but fastballs last year - that's a coaching staff decision. He'll start mixing in the change and curve and rebound. Kato (I assume you mean Matsuzaka) - don't think they just threw $52 million at Siebu on a whim. They have been scouting this guy for YEARS. He'll be just fine. Pedroia and Youk - they've put up good numbers all through their careers at every level. Numbers that PROJECT well to big leauge success. As for Crisp and Drew going without injury, Crisp broke his finger sliding and Drew was hit on the wrist with a pitch. Those could happen to anybody. They're not like an aging power pitcher who pushes off a totally surgically reconstructed ankle.

 

I'm not even going to touch the bullpen issue, though. This front office still has no clue how to build one. In their defense it's probably one of the hardest things to project in baseball, but still ...

[seabeachfred]

schilling came out this winter and announced he will pitch in 08

he didnt pull a clemens and wait till march 08 to annouce he was pitching

 

as for proving himself

 

look at his #s last year....

thats all,no we owe him....

no lets take care of him because of 04

just look at the raw #s

now compare them to what everyone else got in the market this year

lilly,schmidt,meche,zito.....

13M is a bargain for a 15win -4.00 era

he was in the top 10 in winning% wins era and ks while missing a month late in the season

and again

if he goes into october unsigned while having a similar year??

consider him gone

if for no other reason than the blatant disrespect shown him by theo and the owners while they whip their skippies over other men of less character and talent

 

heres how i see it

if beckett has a good year they figure schilling expendable

if becks has another iffy season then they try to resign him

 

i just feel theyre playing with fire with the wrong man

 

Crunch, I think we are just wasting our time trying to argue our case. Those who support us are with us come what may; those who aren't on the Schilling issue will not come over no matter how eruidite we are. Most of the other camp says the "front office is doing it right". I wonder if they said the same things when we lost Clemens, Vaughn, Martinez, Lowe, Damon, and any others I might have left out (Boggs) because I guess back then the "front office was doing it right". The problem seems to be when they "do it right" the Red Sox and their fans lose. Well on to other things like who is going to be our closer and how much progress will Lester make this Spring in cracking the rotation. Adding to what you said at the end of your post. If both Beckett and Lester have good seasons we might lose Schilling. I think if he has a good year and is not resigned before the end of the season he is leaving. That will be another loss for us.

[BSN07]

besides we already payed for what Schilling did in 04, we took a chance and gave him an exension before he ever threw a pitch during the season, we payed him to come here and win a WS. He did, now its a new ball game, so as far as us oweing him anything is BS. All we owe him is our graditude for what he did, as far as money goes we have already given it to him.

 

Now if they win this yr and Schilling is a big part of it then yes we would owe him a 1 yr deal.

[BSN07]

Crunch' date=' I think we are just wasting our time trying to argue our case. Those who support us are with us come what may; those who aren't on the Schilling issue will not come over no matter how eruidite we are. Most of the other camp says the "front office is doing it right". I wonder if they said the same things when we lost Clemens, Vaughn, Martinez, Lowe, Damon, and any others I might have left out (Boggs) because I guess back then the "front office was doing it right". The problem seems to be when they "do it right" the Red Sox and their fans lose. Well on to other things like who is going to be our closer and how much progress will Lester make this Spring in cracking the rotation. Adding to what you said at the end of your post. If both Beckett and Lester have good seasons we might lose Schilling. I think if he has a good year and is not resigned before the end of the season he is leaving. That will be another loss for us.[/quote']

 

 

Clemens, no

 

Vaughn, yes he was past his prime and played like 1 hole season after leaving, so ya that would have been great to keep him<_>

 

Martinez, yes of course it was good to let him go, look at him now, he might not pitch again and even if he does we dont know how well he will do...

 

Lowe was over priced at the time, and has had a couple decent years in the NL West, which isnt saying much

 

Damon was one that was hard to take basically cause he went to the NYY, but I still say he is Bernie Williams JR in a yr or so, no arm, lose of speed and pop, and all the injuries will catch up with him like they do everyone, the FO was worried about the 4th yr of the contract, so lets see how good he is then, and then we will bitch about the FO or call the geniuses

[seabeachfred]

besides we already payed for what Schilling did in 04, we took a chance and gave him an exension before he ever threw a pitch during the season, we payed him to come here and win a WS. He did, now its a new ball game, so as far as us oweing him anything is BS. All we owe him is our graditude for what he did, as far as money goes we have already given it to him.

 

Now if they win this yr and Schilling is a big part of it then yes we would owe him a 1 yr deal.

 

"Now if they win this yr and Schilling is a big part of it then yes we would owe him a 1yr deal."

 

Yes, we would BoNat; the only problem will be that Schilling will use that good year to sign elsewhere and we had better be damn certain we have an adquate replacement to take his place in the rotation in '08 because without one we are almost back to square one. We will have Matsuzaka, Beckett and Papelbon. We can only hope Lester is going greats guns by then, and we will definately need someone to take Wakefield's place because he is getting less effective each year. Hell, though, let's worry about 2007 first.

[BSN07]

Seabeach, I love Schilling and hope he stays but I am most def. on the side saying wait to sign him, you can tell the difference in what kind of fan everyone is, the so called anti schillings are people who look at this situation from a buisness stand point, and if they sign him now it is a bad buisness decision, but the other side are the guys who like a good baseball story, and would give anything to keep the old war heros around. Not that either side is right or wrong but that seems to be the main difference.

[BSN07]

"Now if they win this yr and Schilling is a big part of it then yes we would owe him a 1yr deal."

 

Yes, we would BoNat; the only problem will be that Schilling will use that good year to sign elsewhere and we had better be damn certain we have an adquate replacement to take his place in the rotation in '08 because without one we are almost back to square one. We will have Matsuzaka, Beckett and Papelbon. We can only hope Lester is going greats guns by then, and we will definately need someone to take Wakefield's place because he is getting less effective each year. Hell, though, let's worry about 2007 first.

 

And if he pitches well, we win, and we offer him his one yr deal for 13M or so and he turns it down and goes elsewhere, then thats on him not the FO and theres nothing we can do about it.

 

If he has a bad season and we decide we dont want him for 13M, like I said before, we would most likely be able to bring a kid up from the system to put up comparable numbers for a fraction of the cost. If he goes 12 and 12 this yr with a 4 plus ERA, thats not too hard to replace.

 

If he does good and wins say another 15 games and bolts, we could use the 13M to brin in another good bat, and if thats the case with a powerhouse offense any pitcher could pick up 15 wins for us.

[Mr Crunchy]

good scouting and projections??

thank christ

for a minute there i thought they were bididing on the blind

 

so based on the scouting reports

did they see the # of Ks wmp would have projected over 600abs as they dumped a 15 game winner with a rubber arm for him?

did they notice that jd drew hit 100RBI 1 time in his career and have they noticed how his power #s have essentially disappeared and have they considered opinions of his character and lack of courage from atlanta st louis and la??

did they notice that beckett had never pitched 200 innings in his career and had made 9 trips to the dl before we let go the nl rookie of the year and a guy who tossed a no hitter for him?

 

look

its easy for me to sit here and question the decisions theyve made,most i agreed with 100% at the time,especially the beckett deal which i truly feel will pay off this season in spades

that being said

please dont talk to me about this ownership group making savy business decisions after paying renteria 19M for 1 pitiful year as jd drew lugo and dice K cost us 200M over the next 5 years

im not buying it and it isnt a valid excuse regarding schilling

they need to pay him from a competetive standpoint,he has earned it based on his 06#s

 

again and for the 25th time this week

compare his 06 #s against the other free agent pitchers and what they got paid and i think its fair to say he's worth 13M next year

[Mr Crunchy]

we made raja clemens the highest paid player in baseball in 1991 by giving him 25/5

he went 39-40?? or 40-39 over the next 5 seasons without winning a single playoff game

 

he became a free agent

we offered him a raise despite being a .500 pitcher and we offered to make him the highest paid pitcher in baseball despite the above #s

 

he decided he wanted to pitch for a contender,closer to his home in texas

nobody offered him s***,includintg houston texas and ny

the only team that bid for him in ernest was toronto

a last place team as far away from texas as you can get in baseball

they offered him 2M more over the length of the contract than we did

 

he chose toronto

 

i dont blame the front office for that

and those who do dont remember what really went down or chose to forget the truth

[Fried Neckbones]

Good points, crunchy. Surpise, surprise, not all trades and signings work out.

 

About the only thing that I can counter with is that the two top free agent pitchers (Zito and Schmidt) put up similar numbers to Schilling in '06, yes. However, Schilling is at least 6 years older than these two, and will have one more season of wear on his arm before the new contract comes to bear. I definitly want him resigned if he can prove to be effective, and $13 million would be a bargin. A bit higher if he shows that he is worth it wouldn't be out of the question either. I just want the front office to be cautious, that's all.

[TheKilo]

Where would Schilling sign if he has a good offseason? He's essentially a God in Boston.

 

NYY? I highly doubt that.

Toronto? They already threw big $$ at AJ Burnett

LAA? With Weaver, Santana, Lackey, etc., they'll take on a 40 year old Schilling?

Arizona? Does he want to pitch with RJ again? Will he choose to pitch for a losing team?

 

So much hand wringing over such an insignificant issue. Again, I ask you. Read my post on the first page from SoSH, where Schilling himself says that everyone is making too big a deal over this and it will not affect his performance.

[Mr Crunchy]

better question mr kg

who wont sign him for 1 year outside kc tampa and pittsburg

 

cinci will pay harang and arroyo that kind of money

the cubs and chisox would make a move

maybe he dont want to go to the yanks but what about philly or toronto cleveland minny etc...

HES LOOKING FOR 1 YEAR

not 4 not 3 1 year he wants

 

i agree it wont effect this years performance

unless hes got leg or arm tenderness late in the year

now consider this

he's 16-5 its september and we're 2 out of the wildcard with a 3 game set against the tribe in cleveland.....schilling feels a twindge in his calf.....cant go skip,

im cramping up and need some rest

then we can get a good look at kason gabbard down the stretch

lets just hope it dont mean anything eh kg??

 

if you wait you will lose him

who wouldnt take schilling for 1 year??

who wouldnt want a young staff to learn under the tuteledge of the ultimate competitior,a guy who the kids would do well to watch

his work ethic and study habits have pitching coach written all over him and we have what??

7 men under 25 in the fold??

 

theyre playing with fire and theres really no need to

[seabeachfred]

Seabeach' date=' I love Schilling and hope he stays but I am most def. on the side saying wait to sign him, you can tell the difference in what kind of fan everyone is, the so called anti schillings are people who look at this situation from a buisness stand point, and if they sign him now it is a bad buisness decision, but the other side are the guys who like a good baseball story, and would give anything to keep the old war heros around. Not that either side is right or wrong but that seems to be the main difference.[/quote']

 

Well I think you have exposed me BoNat. I am and have always been an incurable romantic, you know happy endings, the good guy beating the bad guy, the nice guy getting the girl. I had to fight those feeling like hell when I coached baseball all those years, but to have Schilling finish his career with the Red Sox and helping them to a World Series title would be the kind of story I would love to see occur. Of course, we have this season to concern us and it would certainly be a refreshing change of pace to finally win the AL East and go from there.

[Mr Crunchy]

i cheer for the name on the front not the back

i always have,even as a kid

from strictly a competetive standpoint they should do this schilling deal now

 

worst case scenario hes gets hurt and is useless which would be tragic

a more likely worst case scenario is

he goes 14-10 with 200ip and 200ks with a 4.35 era and a 1.40 whip this year in 30 starts

mediocre

next year he goes 12-12 with 180ip and an era of 4.75 and 180ks

but

he also shows josh beckett and lester and paps and hansen and kato and others what it takes to pitch in this league

not how to throw a baseball but to pitch to mlb hitters...

 

he shows them how to bounce back from a dreadful start

he shows them how to behave themselves on the road and how to deal with the misery that is boston media

and most important he shows them what it takes to hang in there and allow 4 when your team scores 5

to allow 6 while your team scores 7 and how to be a stopped when your team needs you most

and how to pitch in pain when the season is on the line...

 

things roger clemens hasnt learned yet at 44

 

hes valuable in more ways than 1

[TheKilo]

better question mr kg

who wont sign him for 1 year outside kc tampa and pittsburg

 

cinci will pay harang and arroyo that kind of money

the cubs and chisox would make a move

maybe he dont want to go to the yanks but what about philly or toronto cleveland minny etc...

HES LOOKING FOR 1 YEAR

not 4 not 3 1 year he wants

 

i agree it wont effect this years performance

unless hes got leg or arm tenderness late in the year

now consider this

he's 16-5 its september and we're 2 out of the wildcard with a 3 game set against the tribe in cleveland.....schilling feels a twindge in his calf.....cant go skip,

im cramping up and need some rest

then we can get a good look at kason gabbard down the stretch

lets just hope it dont mean anything eh kg??

 

if you wait you will lose him

who wouldnt take schilling for 1 year??

who wouldnt want a young staff to learn under the tuteledge of the ultimate competitior,a guy who the kids would do well to watch

his work ethic and study habits have pitching coach written all over him and we have what??

7 men under 25 in the fold??

 

theyre playing with fire and theres really no need to

 

You seemed to have missed the point of my post. There are not many teams that can afford to pay Curt Schilling $13-15 million for one year of work. That would be a significant chunk of payroll to a lot of teams.

 

I was looking strictly at the big market teams. The only big market team that I can honestly see putting up that kind of money for one year of Schilling is the Mets. They are the ones with the most glaring need in their rotation.

 

Why do you think they are playing with fire? If Curt Schilling comes out and is back to the Curt of old, then you can sign him in the offseason, or maybe do a midseason deal a la Crisp and Ortiz.

 

If he sports a 5.00 ERA, is he worth that much money? He's 40 years old and not getting any younger...

 

If he can prove he still has it, then yes sign him. But why put that much money aside for an unknown?

[Mr Crunchy]

unknown is matsusaka

unknown is what becks will do

unknown is paps shoulder

 

lets start with what we do know

what we know of schilling is sub 4 eras in 17-18 years and balls of steele

 

we know he won 15

we know his era was under 4

we know he was in the top 5 in whip ks and winning % if im not mistaken

we know the cost of pitching is insane

we know the cost of not having pitching is worse

we know what he will do to win......

 

its 1 year

small market teams maynot bid on him but wouldnt minny take shot for 1 year??

what of anaheim or la or texas for 1 year??

atlanta or the cubs??

sanfran??

what if colorado decided to get involved or seattle decides they need him for 1 year

 

again

1 year....not a gamble like 5 years

 

i appreciate your caution Kg and respect your knowledge of the game

i really do

but i dont put as much credence into his 2nd 1/2 #s like you guys did

if he dont miss that month he probably wins 18 for sure,maybe 20 if he got on a tear

whats that worth??

im judging him by his entire season,not just the 2nd half

and his total #s from last summer tell me hes far from done

 

hey

ive been wrong before

but i feel he will be 1 pissed off camper without a deal from theo by 4-1

[redsoxrules]

so crunchy do we know how he's gonna pitch next year? we all know what he did troughout his career but the question is how good can he be next year . now a good way of finding that out is to see how good he makes out this year . plain and simple if he does great then sign if he sucks let him walk

 

i hope he does great i really do

[Mr Crunchy]

we all want him to pitch well

 

and if he does

he'll need a team of security that would make bush blush to keep other gms off his back during the offseason

 

this is pitching

wait and possibly get f***ed or

spend what amounts to be 5% of our payroll on what was our best pitcher last year

 

this isnt a journeyman goombah or tim wakefield we're talking about

[seabeachfred]

so crunchy do we know how he's gonna pitch next year? we all know what he did troughout his career but the question is how good can he be next year . now a good way of finding that out is to see how good he makes out this year . plain and simple if he does great then sign if he sucks let him walk

 

i hope he does great i really do

 

We all hope he does well RSN, but I have the same fear that Crunch has. If he has a strong season for us, which I think he will, we will be fighting other teams for his services because no matter what anyone will tell you good pitching is still in short supply in baseball. For the Red Sox $13 million is bucket of s*** compared to what they've spent this winter or what they've spent in the past. In fact, aren't we still paying some of Renteria's salary? That's another point. In years past our front office has had a proclivity of really botching it royal with some of our players in their walk year. Anyway, my main focus is now on our closer. Donnelly was terrific yesterday. Maybe he will be in the mix. I sure as hell like what I saw of him when he pitched in Anaheim. No fear of batters and balls like iron out there.

[seabeachfred]

we all want him to pitch well

 

and if he does

he'll need a team of security that would make bush blush to keep other gms off his back during the offseason

 

this is pitching

wait and possibly get f***ed or

spend what amounts to be 5% of our payroll on what was our best pitcher last year

 

this isnt a journeyman goombah or tim wakefield we're talking about

 

I wonder what they're paying Wakefield? Do you know Crunch? I mean they roll over his contract every year and they can't do that for Schilling? Who the hell would want out there in a must game?

[riverside sluggers]

Wakefield is paid at a paltry $4 million, a deal as ever for a 5th starter in this day & age.

 

Guys Im not ready at all to jump off the deep end about Schilling, its not set in stone that he is set to bid Boston adieu

[example1]

No, its not set in stone. My guess is that if he has a 80% season this year (say, 180 IP, 15 W) he will be resigned. If he sucks or gets injured then he might retire or make a sad attempt to come back.

 

For a "measley" 1 or 2 million the sox could sign him above what he's currently making to ensure he comes back, or if he pitches at 80% this season perhaps he'll gladly accept the same contract.

[Mr Crunchy]

my view of all this is if becks can put up 200ip with an era around 4 and no health issues they'll let curt go or make him an offer that they know he'll refuse

 

wake has been a rock

10-11 years of journeyman work

hes a knuckleballer with better than a .500 record which is rare

he closed middled and pitched on no rest

you never know what hes going to bring

neither does he

 

i do know when hes on he can go a couple months without getting touched

and when hes off??

its bad

 

losing him along with arroyo killed us last year

not just their ability to pitch but more of their mere presence

the innings they ate up were passed on to some real s*** bags and we just couldnt recover

 

the work wake does for charity off the field impresses me a lot more than his arm

the man is really a walking saint and his work with the special needs kids in florida never gets enuff ink...

 

a good career was salvaged here in boston and he gave back a lot of good will in return

 

the entire picture will revolve around becks i feel

 

this is the season he turns into superstar or....a jouneyman

[jacksonianmarch]

Beckett will never be a journeyman. But is he an elite player or is he a back end of the rotation kind of guy? That is the question to be answered.

[TheKilo]

Beckett will never be a journeyman. But is he an elite player or is he a back end of the rotation kind of guy? That is the question to be answered.

 

Ummm, if Beckett is a back of the rotation guy, why can't he be a journeyman?

[a700hitter]

Beckett will never be a journeyman. But is he an elite player or is he a back end of the rotation kind of guy? That is the question to be answered.

I vote that he is an elite pitcher.

[BSN07]

Besides Schilling just started that game company, Green Monster games or something, he wants to stay in Boston. He basically asked to see if he could get extended one yr( even he admits he knew it was doubtful), but the FO said no we need to see how you pitch this yr. He brought up the hole I will become a FA if they don't sign me now as the only bit of leverage he had, just incase they where on the fence and that might make them lean towards signing him, but the FO was not teetering, they where on the lets wait side already. He knew this was a possibility too and said this wont be a distraction, so lets take him on his word and wait and see what he does. If he switches gears and becomes a pain in the ass or whatever, or leaves in the offseason for more money or years thats on him. He said all he wanted was 1 yr and 13M.