Schilling rips backstabbing front office

[BoSox21]

Clearly the right thing for the organization is to not commit $14 million to a 40 year old pitcher. If the Yankees want to make that move after this year, then so be it but it shouldn't be held against the organization that they don't want to sign him to an extension right now, and certainly not because of what he did for the team in 2004. if that was the case, Dave Roberts would be our full time centerfielder and Millar would still be our first baseman

[seabeachfred]

If "Schilling is being treated the same god dam way that those 3 players you named", then to me the policy is bogus from the get-go. We lost all three didn't we? And their replacements were inferior in every way, shape and form. For that reason RSR, I think the Red Sox policy is in bad need of revision. True, Martinez came up lame last season, but he had a great 2005 season and if we had kept him we probably would have won the AL East and had a better chance of going deeper in the Playoffs. If we would have kept Lowe, that would also have made our pitching stronger because only Wells performed for us the whole year. As for Damon, you really want to compare him to the Crisp we saw last season? Where we do agree is that Schilling knows the score and is not surprised at the Red Sox stance. That I'm pretty sure of. He knows the score. The ones who cannot except that are those who do feel that what Schilling did went beyond the call of duty, and it is a simple fact that without Schilling in 2004 we not only would not have won the World Series, but it might have been difficult to get into the playoffs to begin with. Admittedly I'm very biased in this regard. I am a big fan of Curt Schilling and feel he has merited the right to be given special consideration for what he sacrificed in 2004.

[Fried Neckbones]

Exactly, BoSox.

 

Baseball front office work is a game of speculation and projection. Looking to the past is NOT the way that it works. The question in the Sox FO right now isn't "What did Curt do for us in 2004?" but rather "What will Curt be able to do for us in 2008?". What Curt did in 2004 is worth way more than $13 million. I think we can all agree on that. He will never buy a drink, or anything else, in the city of Boston and wherever else Red Sox fans live ever again. But he's 40, had a crappy second half (and don't bring out 15 wins - that is the worst stat to measure a pitcher buy and you all know it), and could be the third best pitcher on the staff by the end of this season. Is all that worth $13 million? That's the question that the front office has to answer.

 

By the way seabeachfred, I'm not anti-Schilling. I love what Schilling did for this team in 2004. I remember the moment exactly, I still have every edition of the Globe from the World Series and parades and always will. But shelling out contracts for things that have happened in the past, especially things that are not performance based (in the sense of pure numbers that can be projected), is not the road that I want to see this front office start to go down.

[TheKilo]

Exactly, BoSox.

 

Baseball front office work is a game of speculation and projection. Looking to the past is NOT the way that it works. The question in the Sox FO right now isn't "What did Curt do for us in 2004?" but rather "What will Curt be able to do for us in 2008?". What Curt did in 2004 is worth way more than $13 million. I think we can all agree on that. He will never buy a drink, or anything else, in the city of Boston and wherever else Red Sox fans live ever again. But he's 40, had a crappy second half (and don't bring out 15 wins - that is the worst stat to measure a pitcher buy and you all know it), and could be the third best pitcher on the staff by the end of this season. Is all that worth $13 million? That's the question that the front office has to answer.

 

By the way seabeachfred, I'm not anti-Schilling. I love what Schilling did for this team in 2004. I remember the moment exactly, I still have every edition of the Globe from the World Series and parades and always will. But shelling out contracts for things that have happened in the past, especially things that are not performance based (in the sense of pure numbers that can be projected), is not the road that I want to see this front office start to go down.

 

Excellent post.

[riverside sluggers]

Ok to all the people who are all arguing that the Sox are saying "f*** you your sorry ass" to Schilling...

 

Is this is the 2007 offseason already? Has the 2007 season even started yet? I guess No to both questions. This doesnt mean at all that its signed & sealed that Curt is pitching his last season in Boston and Theo is getting ready to take a s*** on his jersey.

[TheKilo]

Ok to all the people who are all arguing that the Sox are saying "f*** you your sorry ass" to Schilling...

 

Is this is the 2007 offseason already? Has the 2007 season even started yet? I guess No to both questions. This doesnt mean at all that its signed & sealed that Curt is pitching his last season in Boston and Theo is getting ready to take a s*** on his jersey.

 

I believe them when they say negotiations are over til the offseason.

 

I believe the Red Sox will pay Schilling what he wants for a one year deal if he earns it.

 

I believe that if Schilling decides he wants to pitch more than one year after this season he will pitch somewhere else in 2008.

 

I believe none of this has any bearing on what the man did in 2004.

[Fried Neckbones]

Not to harp on this, but I just remembered something else. Schilling's original contract with the Sox included an extention and pay increases if the Sox won the WS with him. So, in a sense, they already rewarded him for '04, and his gut-wrenching, heart-warming performance was, at least in part, motivated by the prospect of financial gain. It wan't just that Curt would do anything to bring a title to Boston and went above and beyond the call of duty.

 

I am a bit bothered by the way he announced right before spring training that he wants an extention (after the free agent signings gave an indication of market value) after saying that 2007 would be his last year. Make an offer during the break, if he accepts, great, if not come back after the season.

[redsoxrules]

' date=' and it is a simple fact that without Schilling in 2004 we not only would not have won the World Series, but it might have been difficult to get into the playoffs to begin with. Admittedly I'm very biased in this regard. I am a big fan of Curt Schilling and feel he has merited the right to be given special consideration for what he sacrificed in 2004.[/quote']

 

and its also a simple fact without dave roberts we dont win it, without ortiz 2 clutch hits we dont win it , i could go on and on

[seabeachfred]

Well your point is well taken with Roberts, Big Papi and the rest of the crew. It was, after all, a complete team effort. We could all go on for ever and ever on this and not reach common ground. Suffice to say that your side seems to have the high ground on this because the Red Sox are going to do what you, Kilo, Fried Neckbones and rest of that group suggests. I only hope that Schilling has a solid year and they can reward him with an extention before the season ends. If he has no contract at the end of the WS I think he is as good as gone, and that would be s***** in my opinion. I again reiterate when I've said before. Schilling should retire as a member of the Red Sox and not some other club.

[seabeachfred]

Ok to all the people who are all arguing that the Sox are saying "f*** you your sorry ass" to Schilling...

 

Is this is the 2007 offseason already? Has the 2007 season even started yet? I guess No to both questions. This doesnt mean at all that its signed & sealed that Curt is pitching his last season in Boston and Theo is getting ready to take a s*** on his jersey.

 

Right Riverside and frankly I think both camps have driven this thread into the ground. We will just have to see how this all plays out. Again, I'm a big Schilling man and can never forget what he did for our team in 2004, but the board seems split down the middle on that and we might as well just put this thread to rest for the time being.

[TheKilo]

Well your point is well taken with Roberts' date=' Big Papi and the rest of the crew. It was, after all, a complete team effort. We could all go on for ever and ever on this and not reach common ground. Suffice to say that your side seems to have the high ground on this because the Red Sox are going to do what you, Kilo, Fried Neckbones and rest of that group suggests. I only hope that Schilling has a solid year and they can reward him with an extention before the season ends. If he has no contract at the end of the WS I think he is as good as gone, and that would be s***** in my opinion. I again reiterate when I've said before. Schilling should retire as a member of the Red Sox and not some other club.[/quote']

 

So you'd spend $13 million on Schilling if he keeps up a 5.50 ERA pace?

[seabeachfred]

So you'd spend $13 million on Schilling if he keeps up a 5.50 ERA pace?

 

So you wouldn't spend $13 million if he won 15-18 gamesand fashioned a 3.75 ERA? BTW, Schilling pitched two solid innings today in the Grapefruit League opener, no runs and two hits. Frankly I think he will do more of what I outlined than what you suggested. If he tanks badly I might have to reluctantly change my opinion. Are you prepared to do the same if he goes the other way and has a banner year?

 

Again, I do have a very strong pro-Schilling bias and can never forget the sacrifice he made for his team and the great risk he took on his own. This time I hope I'm the one who is right.

[seabeachfred]

Exactly, BoSox.

 

Baseball front office work is a game of speculation and projection. Looking to the past is NOT the way that it works. The question in the Sox FO right now isn't "What did Curt do for us in 2004?" but rather "What will Curt be able to do for us in 2008?". What Curt did in 2004 is worth way more than $13 million. I think we can all agree on that. He will never buy a drink, or anything else, in the city of Boston and wherever else Red Sox fans live ever again. But he's 40, had a crappy second half (and don't bring out 15 wins - that is the worst stat to measure a pitcher buy and you all know it), and could be the third best pitcher on the staff by the end of this season. Is all that worth $13 million? That's the question that the front office has to answer.

 

By the way seabeachfred, I'm not anti-Schilling. I love what Schilling did for this team in 2004. I remember the moment exactly, I still have every edition of the Globe from the World Series and parades and always will. But shelling out contracts for things that have happened in the past, especially things that are not performance based (in the sense of pure numbers that can be projected), is not the road that I want to see this front office start to go down.

 

No FN, you are not anti-Schilling and I don't think Kilo or RSN are either. We just have a different take on how to deal with the guy. Let's hope our camp is right and he has a helluva season so he can get that one year extention.

[schillingouttheks]

So you wouldn't spend $13 million if he won 15-18 gamesand fashioned a 3.75 ERA? BTW, Schilling pitched two solid innings today in the Grapefruit League opener, no runs and two hits. Frankly I think he will do more of what I outlined than what you suggested. If he tanks badly I might have to reluctantly change my opinion. Are you prepared to do the same if he goes the other way and has a banner year?

 

Again, I do have a very strong pro-Schilling bias and can never forget the sacrifice he made for his team and the great risk he took on his own. This time I hope I'm the one who is right.

 

It's not that hard. If he does indeed win 15-18 games and finishes with a 3.75 ERA, the Sox will give him his 1 year/13 million deal. How would you feel if he finished with a 6ish ERA, and we were guaranteed to be stuck with him for next year if we had already signed him to an extension? I wouldn't feel too good about it, especially at $13 million. It's much safer to re-sign him when you know he has something left in the tank...and we will only be able to judge that during next offseason.

 

You think that Kilo doesn't support giving him $13 million. He has stated time and time again that he does, but only if Schilling proves he can still put up respectable numbers. The FO doesn't want to be stuck with something that they have no use for. And if Schilling finishes the season in an ugly fashion, he'll be useless for us next season and we'll owe him $13 million. I think the FO is playing this correctly.

[TheKilo]

So you wouldn't spend $13 million if he won 15-18 gamesand fashioned a 3.75 ERA? BTW, Schilling pitched two solid innings today in the Grapefruit League opener, no runs and two hits. Frankly I think he will do more of what I outlined than what you suggested. If he tanks badly I might have to reluctantly change my opinion. Are you prepared to do the same if he goes the other way and has a banner year?

 

Again, I do have a very strong pro-Schilling bias and can never forget the sacrifice he made for his team and the great risk he took on his own. This time I hope I'm the one who is right.

 

Have you read the thread? I'm in full support of signing a healthy, effective Schilling for 2008.

 

Based on what I saw last year...I am not 100% confident that Schilling can put up a 3.75 ERA and return to his 2004 effectiveness. The FO would like to see what they have in Schilling before committing over $10 million for a one year deal on him.

 

Why is this being met with such fervor? It's a smart business decision.

 

BTW, the 5.5 ERA wasn't a suggestion. it's indicative of his performance in the second half last season.

[schillingouttheks]

Have you read the thread? I'm in full support of signing a healthy, effective Schilling for 2008.

 

Based on what I saw last year...I am not 100% confident that Schilling can put up a 3.75 ERA and return to his 2004 effectiveness. The FO would like to see what they have in Schilling before committing over $10 million for a one year deal on him.

 

Why is this being met with such fervor? It's a smart business decision.

 

BTW, the 5.5 ERA wasn't a suggestion. it's indicative of his performance in the second half last season.

Oh, there you are

 

Whatever, I guess it doesn't hurt to have the same thing said back to back by two different posters for emphasis.

[seabeachfred]

It's not that hard. If he does indeed win 15-18 games and finishes with a 3.75 ERA, the Sox will give him his 1 year/13 million deal. How would you feel if he finished with a 6ish ERA, and we were guaranteed to be stuck with him for next year if we had already signed him to an extension? I wouldn't feel too good about it, especially at $13 million. It's much safer to re-sign him when you know he has something left in the tank...and we will only be able to judge that during next offseason.

 

You think that Kilo doesn't support giving him $13 million. He has stated time and time again that he does, but only if Schilling proves he can still put up respectable numbers. The FO doesn't want to be stuck with something that they have no use for. And if Schilling finishes the season in an ugly fashion, he'll be useless for us next season and we'll owe him $13 million. I think the FO is playing this correctly.

 

I know Kilo thinks just as you said he does and so do you. I just fear if we wait until the season is over to deal with Schilling he might decide to go elsewhere. The best thing, of course, would be for him to have a great season for us. I want him to retire a Red Sox.

[TheKilo]

Oh, there you are

 

Whatever, I guess it doesn't hurt to have the same thing said back to back by two different posters for emphasis.

 

 

Haha, it's good to have another voice of reason whenever possible.

 

Has anyone else noticed that the source is from the Herald, who for the most part, is the second tier paper in covering the Sox (after the Globe)?

 

I fully believe this will not affect Schilling's performance this year. Why? Because if you read my post on the first page...HE SAID SO HIMSELF. If he is healthy and pitches effectively, the Sox will pay up.

 

I've made my point in this thread. I'm tired of saying it over and over.

[seabeachfred]

Have you read the thread? I'm in full support of signing a healthy, effective Schilling for 2008.

 

Based on what I saw last year...I am not 100% confident that Schilling can put up a 3.75 ERA and return to his 2004 effectiveness. The FO would like to see what they have in Schilling before committing over $10 million for a one year deal on him.

 

Why is this being met with such fervor? It's a smart business decision.

 

BTW, the 5.5 ERA wasn't a suggestion. it's indicative of his performance in the second half last season.

 

I see your point. Well from my standpoint, let's hope he has that good season and can get the extention. Knowing his determination, I think he can pull it off. He did tail off the second half of last season, but then again, so did most of our team. New year, new hopes.

[BSN07]

Ok guys heres my 2 cents worth...

 

 

As bad is it may sound, Schilling is an un proven commodity as of right now. His 2nd half last yr was horrible, we don't know for sure whether or not he can go a whole season or not. And believe me I'm not anti-Schilling, but the way the Sox office is handling this is the correct way. It is a bad buisness decision to allocate 13M of the 08 payroll for a player you are not sure is worth it in 07. You guys that think he should get a contract extension just because of what he did in 04 need to take a step back, take a breath and think about it again. Schilling was great that yr don't get me wrong, but Pedro,Lowe,OC,Millar,Roberts,Foulke,Muellher,Damon, they all had a part in it too but were not screaming at the FO for letting them go(except for Damon, but in all honesty it wast the 3rd and 4th yrs of the contract they where worried about, so we will come back to that one maybe next yr)

 

Pedro, people didn´t want to see him go but look at him now, won´t pitch until late 07. We would still have him under contract for 2 more years if we had given in just because of what he did in 04, and be stuck with no Pedro and the money on his contract.

 

Lowe, his contract looks good now but in 04 it was a bit hi for a #3-#4 pitcher.

 

OC, good SS but nothing wonderful, but did handle the pressure in Boston not bad.

 

Millar, whoever said that all the replacements we found for these guys is wrong, Millar good 04 was enough to bring him back for 05(because he was also pretty cheap too) but he stunk to hi hell in 05 and Youk was atleast a notch better then compared to him.

 

Muellher, can´t play anymore

 

Damon, see above...

 

Theres a saying( cant remeber exact phrasing) If GM´s listened or did there jobs like fans, they would soon be sitting next to them in the stands.... or along those lines, but in all honesty, this is why none of us are GM´s. We love the nastalga of things, we want to see our hero Schilling finish his career with the Sox, and Clemens too for that matter and all of the other players we have loved so much. But if we did that wed be a 3rd place team, with a bunch of over payed old players. And that is the plain truth of the matter. Thats why people like Theo and company are GM,FO people, they can seperate themselves from the fan part of the game. There Job is to put a winning team on the field, if they don´t the have to answer to the owners, the fans ect. They cant have that sentiment,or atleast show it when it comes to these decisions.

 

Guys if schilling comes out and has a great 07 then the team will most likely give him the extension. He said he would play for 13M and he wasn´t looking for a raise, so if he files for FA and them leaves the team for more money or guranteed yrs then thats on him.

 

We also have to consider that hes been saying his last season is 07, and in doing that, the FO might have the 13M he wants ear marked for other things. Because you know its not just this season the FO thinks about, its also the future wellfare of the club too. I for one would rather see them put the 13M towards a hitter next off season. If schilling really is declining then it wont be hard for a rookie pitcher to put up comparable numbers for a fraction of the price.

[jmiller2]

 

 

We also have to consider that hes been saying his last season is 07, and in doing that, the FO might have the 13M he wants ear marked for other things. Because you know its not just this season the FO thinks about, its also the future wellfare of the club too. I for one would rather see them put the 13M towards a hitter next off season. If schilling really is declining then it wont be hard for a rookie pitcher to put up comparable numbers for a fraction of the price.

 

i agree completely with this, they operated the entire off season assuming he was gone, and they need that money to extend papi, which there should be no argument about deserving, the young pitchers, assuming they have big years, and eventually adress the 3b/1b option, as mike lowell isn't getting any younger. when they set future budgets, curt wasn't on there. no one, including him, can expect to be just penciled in. i know they aren't exactly a small market team, but 13-14 million is a good chunk of change.

[ORS]

Haha, it's good to have another voice of reason whenever possible.

 

Has anyone else noticed that the source is from the Herald, who for the most part, is the second tier paper in covering the Sox (after the Globe)?

 

I fully believe this will not affect Schilling's performance this year. Why? Because if you read my post on the first page...HE SAID SO HIMSELF. If he is healthy and pitches effectively, the Sox will pay up.

 

I've made my point in this thread. I'm tired of saying it over and over.

Stop making sense, you are ruining everyone's rant.

[BoSox21]

I fully expect to see the best Curt Schilling can possibly give us this year if only because it is a contract year for him and he is auditioning for that one-year deal, whether it be with the Sox or someone else

[Mr Crunchy]

schilling came out this winter and announced he will pitch in 08

he didnt pull a clemens and wait till march 08 to annouce he was pitching

 

as for proving himself

 

look at his #s last year....

thats all,no we owe him....

no lets take care of him because of 04

just look at the raw #s

now compare them to what everyone else got in the market this year

lilly,schmidt,meche,zito.....

13M is a bargain for a 15win -4.00 era

he was in the top 10 in winning% wins era and ks while missing a month late in the season

and again

if he goes into october unsigned while having a similar year??

consider him gone

if for no other reason than the blatant disrespect shown him by theo and the owners while they whip their skippies over other men of less character and talent

 

heres how i see it

if beckett has a good year they figure schilling expendable

if becks has another iffy season then they try to resign him

 

i just feel theyre playing with fire with the wrong man

[BSN07]

ERRRRRRR.... poeple stop bringing up the 15 wins... he had 10 of the God Damn things before the AS break. We know he is good for half a season, but what we don't know is if he can continue it all year. 13M is alot for a pitcher that can only help for half a year. Let him pitch, if he does good then give him his one yr and maybe a little more then 13M, and if not let him go on his merry way.

 

Everyone stop looking at this from a fan perpective! If that was the persepective of the FO we have a bunch of 35+ yr olds playing for us. This is a buisness, and if you run a buisness on hopes and prayers your gonna fall flat on your face. Yes Id love to see Schilling finish his career in Boston for what he did in 04, but am not willing to hand him 13M+ for and over weight pitcher who is only good for half the season.

[BudLight]

I hate when I make a good post and then it's lost because someone goes and says something stupid like this afterwards.

 

Of course Clemens wasn't on the mound when the Sox won the series. At the same rate, the sentimentality can still be there. Fans who understand baseball and look deeper into things realize that it was the FO that dicked over Clemens. They didn't show him the respect he had earned/deserved and he flew the coop. Did I like him playing for the Yanks? s*** no. But at the same rate, the guy's is a helluva pitcher, and I loved him while he played in Boston. I don't blame him for leaving when he did. Sure, the course of events would have been different should I have written it, but whatever.

 

I'm not even a big Clemens fan...but to imply that Clemens can't have sentimentality towards playing in Boston because he never won a Series here is ridiculous. Coming back to play for fans who never wanted you to leave and finishing up with the team that gave you your shot on their quest to bring another championship to argueably the most passionate fans in all of professional sports? Sheesh...where's the sentimentality in that?

 

 

I hate it when I make a post and people don't understand what was posted and make ridiculous replies:

 

I didn't imply that Clemens can't have sentimentality, I implied that the Sox FO will not give him $20M plus for half a season base on sentimental reasons (he started his career in Boston and for sentimental reasons should finish it in Boston). If the FO disprespects Schilling by not offering him an extension what makes fans of Roger believe the FO has any inclination to sign Roger for sentimental reasons. It has nothing to do with the fans. s***, if the FO was concerned with the fans perspective, they probably would still have Petey and Damon under contract.

[BSN07]

If we signed everyone for what they did in 04, we would have a very old and s***** team. There would be no Matsuzaka,Papelbon,

 

We would have Pedro sitting on the shelf, Muehller reitired, Millar playing first( good guy, not that great of a player) bellhorn be at 2nd, and Nixon in RF falling apart infront of our eyes.

[BudLight]

I'm not advocating giving him an extension based soley on what he did in '04, although it was nothing short of miraculous. Schilling has been a very successful pitcher wherever he went. Last year he managed to pitch well while the rest of the rotation was falling down around him. He is still a very good pitcher who has a lot to offer not only in his performance on the mound but also his teaching of the new young pitchers coming up through the system. $13M is a bargain after seeing some of the money given out this past Winter to lesser pitchers.

[BSN07]

....Schilling pitched good pre all star break....... he wasn't any better after the AS break then the other chumps we sent out there..... he has to proove he can do it over a hole yr........

[BSN07]

Foulke was just as important as Schilling, but when he declined and couldn't hold it together for a whole season we let him go.... no one was up in arms about that tho....