Red Sox in discussions with Rockies about Helton

[TGov]

Youklis is not in the farm sytem' date=' and he is a mediocre talent at best. In three years he won't be able to find a starting job on any winning team.[/quote']

 

I wasn't talking about Youkilis, I was talking about all our pitching prospects we would have to give up...

[jacksonianmarch]

this is interesting. Helton would be equivalent to the Abreu move as far as picking up an early 30s OBP machine. Helton isnt the 49HR guy anymore. He's more a Lyle Overbay with a better eye. But he'll fit into that lineup nice and they'll grind down pitching something fierce. Imagine the amount of pitches seen when we face each other.

 

1. Damon CF 1. Lugo SS

2. Jeter SS 2. Drew RF

3. Abreu RF 3. Ortiz DH

4. Rodriguez 3B 4. Ramirez LF

5. Giambi DH 5. Helton 1B

6. Matsui LF 6. Youkilis 3B

7. Posada C 7. Varitek C

8. Cano 1B 8. Crisp CF

9. Mienk/Phelps 1B 9. Pedroia 2B

 

BATTLE ROYALE MOTHER f***ER!!! 9,000 pitches thrown in a 3 game set.

[jacksonianmarch]

one thing I do find interesting is that this guy turns 34 in August and is signed for 6 yrs. He has had a power decline even before this intestinal illness and it will continue to be harder to hit the ball out of the park in Fenway as opposed to Coors. He will be deadly on pitchers with his patience and he has a great glove. But he is signed for 18 per until he is 40. Is that a good move?

[jacksonianmarch]

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/6414656

 

Rosenthal says the money has not been agreed to and the deal does not include Lowell. Rather Hansen and two other prospects, one may be Ellsbury.

[riverside sluggers]

Although Rosenthal's report came out 10 hours ago. Around 430 or so on WEEI they announced in one of their "sports flash" that the terms of money have been agreed on.

[ksushi]

Yeah, the Rosenthal report is older. Newer stuff at least has the money being agreed upon. I think as far as players are concerned anything will be speculation at this point.

[example1]

No Ellsbury. No Bowden or Buchholz.

 

Any possibility that Crisp is a part of the deal? Move WMP or Drew to CF and put the other in the outfield?? Haven't heard it mentioned, but it wouldn't be out of the question.

 

Lugo

Youkilis

Ortiz

Manny

Drew

Helton

Pena

Varitek

Pedroia

 

Wow. Defensively that's pretty weak, but Pena naturally falling into the 7 hole and Varitek in the 8 hole (or flip them) indicates a strong lineup.

[Cityofchampions33]

If it's Lowell and Tavarez plus 2 prospects I'd say it's a steal (pending the prospects aren't the B's Ellsbury and don't include both hansen and MDC). I wonder what teh agreement is money-wise though.

[example1]

I imagine that if this deal is going to happen the financial situation for the sox will be a good one. I don't think that Theo is going to trade away the future or the payroll for a player of questionable value.

 

Jacksonian, I think your assessment/comparison between Helton and Abreu are pretty good. I think that Helton has always been the better hitter, but Abreu has better speed. I also think that drew is a good comparison with Abreu, more injury prone but more natural power.

 

Any player of that caliber is a good one to add to your lineup.

[hoke3182]

The Denver Post reported on its Web site that the Rockies could be interested in a pair of pitching prospects, reliever Manny Delcarmen, 24, and 2005 first-round pick Craig Hansen. The Rocky Mountain News reported that the Red Sox proposed sending third baseman Mike Lowell and right-hander Julian Tavarez. ESPN.com reported that Sox veteran pitcher Matt Clement would have to be included. FoxSports.com identified Triple-A center fielder Jacoby Ellsbury as a target of the Rockies.(red sox .com)

I don't see them moving Ellsbury for an aging, past his prime Todd Helton. I could see that killing the proposed trade.

[jacksonianmarch]

I imagine that if this deal is going to happen the financial situation for the sox will be a good one. I don't think that Theo is going to trade away the future or the payroll for a player of questionable value.

 

Jacksonian, I think your assessment/comparison between Helton and Abreu are pretty good. I think that Helton has always been the better hitter, but Abreu has better speed. I also think that drew is a good comparison with Abreu, more injury prone but more natural power.

 

Any player of that caliber is a good one to add to your lineup.

 

abreu and Helton is a good comparison. Abreu and Drew is not. Abreu had a lot more power, average, more speed, and more walks than Drew. Drew is a poor man's Abreu. Helton is a slower Abreu at 1b. If healthy, that 2-6 would be on base near .400. That will be a painful lineup to face.

 

At the same time, Helton's salary is now not too terrible, so they dont need to move him now. It is the longevity that is the problem. I dont think this will be a sheer salary dump. If an injured RJ can return 3 MLB ready prospects and a solid reliever, then Helton should be worth more than just Lowell and Tavares.

[jacksonianmarch]

The Denver Post reported on its Web site that the Rockies could be interested in a pair of pitching prospects, reliever Manny Delcarmen, 24, and 2005 first-round pick Craig Hansen. The Rocky Mountain News reported that the Red Sox proposed sending third baseman Mike Lowell and right-hander Julian Tavarez. ESPN.com reported that Sox veteran pitcher Matt Clement would have to be included. FoxSports.com identified Triple-A center fielder Jacoby Ellsbury as a target of the Rockies.(red sox .com)

I don't see them moving Ellsbury for an aging, past his prime Todd Helton. I could see that killing the proposed trade.

 

Hansen or Ellsbury would have to be included IMHO. I dont see both, but I could see Hansen and MDC. I wouldnt be surprised if Lowell and Clement were thrown in to manage the salary difference for this yr. Then next yr, Lester could slide into Schilling's spot in the rotation and they'd break even on cash. I know it is thinking ahead, but they are right against the cap and going over it with these recent, long term, high cash moves, can really cause some problems.

[example1]

abreu and Helton is a good comparison. Abreu and Drew is not. Abreu had a lot more power, average, more speed, and more walks than Drew. Drew is a poor man's Abreu. Helton is a slower Abreu at 1b. If healthy, that 2-6 would be on base near .400. That will be a painful lineup to face.

 

At the same time, Helton's salary is now not too terrible, so they dont need to move him now. It is the longevity that is the problem. I dont think this will be a sheer salary dump. If an injured RJ can return 3 MLB ready prospects and a solid reliever, then Helton should be worth more than just Lowell and Tavares.

 

Helton's salary is pushing 17m. That's pretty terrible.

 

Drew has a higher career SLG than Abreu, and had a higher one last year. to say that Abreu has more power is, therefore, simply false. Drew averages 27 HR a season, Abreu 22. Last year Abreu had 15, Drew had 20.

 

Just because Abreu stopped his roids last year and had a massive power drop doesn't mean that he's a naturally more powerful hitter than Drew. The fact that they play the same position and each hits left handed makes me think they are a FINE comparison.

[jacksonianmarch]

the SLG is nearly the same. I am surprised about that. I was looking at HR totals, and Drew's are stunted by his considerable injury history.

 

To use the roids thing is preposterous to say the least. Helton, Drew, and Abreu experienced a drop in SLG. Abreu at least had his career SLG in NY for the last half the yr.

[a700hitter]

This guy is a tremendous offensive force. Other than Ellsbury, I don't think there is a prospect with a lot of promise in the entire system. Give them whoever they want. None of them are going to make an impact for two-three years minimum. If the Sox can win a couple of Championships in that time, it would be well worth it.

[ksushi]

Yup, I'd pack Jacobi's bags for him.

[hoke3182]

This guy is a tremendous offensive force. Other than Ellsbury' date=' I don't think there is a prospect with a lot of promise in the entire system. Give them whoever they want. None of them are going to make an impact for two-three years minimum. If the Sox can win a couple of Championships in that time, it would be well worth it.[/quote'] You guys bitch about injury prone, but Helton's got hurt each of the last two years, and he's never visited the dl before that. I think the Drew signing was stupid , so why take another guy thats had decreasing numbers the last three years with a HUGE contract. Maybe it will pan out but don't bet on it. Steroids???

[hoke3182]

The conversation resumed at the ownership level about 10 days ago and has moved forward from there. Both sides are in virtual agreement on the dollars, with the Rockies likely responsible for slightly less than half of Helton's remaining six-year, $90.1 million guaranteed contract.(espn.com) If thats the deal thats cool as long as ellsbury and bucholz aren't involed

[BSN07]

I read on mlbtraderumors.com(ya I know but it was quoteing someone else) that the Money is half, so Helton at 45M over the next 6 years isn't bad at all.

[Linda]

Helton to Red Sox?

posted: Saturday, January 27, 2007 | Feedback | Print Entry

 

The Red Sox are engaged in trade talks with the Colorado Rockies about Todd Helton, reports Troy Renck, with no deal imminent at this point. But you could see why this would make sense for each side.

 

In response to the Denver Post story, a major league source indicated Saturday morning that the conversations between the Red Sox and Rockies actually opened last fall, and at that time, one of the sides felt that there could be an acceptable framework to make a deal. Any trade may have to include pitcher Matt Clement, from the Red Sox perspective. It could be that the completion of the J.D. Drew deal will now reignite talks, given that the Red Sox have a clearer sense of their financial obligations.

 

 

For the Rockies, this would be an opportunity to move Helton's contract, and as owner Charlie Monfort told the Denver Post this week, it is very difficult to operate in a situation in which one player absorbs such a large part of the payroll. If they could get the Red Sox to eat a lot of Helton's deal and save themselves somewhere in the range of $8 million to $10 million a year, they would have much more flexibility.

 

 

And the Rockies have to be concerned with the decreasing production of the 33-year-old Helton. Over the last four years, his slugging percentage has dropped from .630 to .620 to .534 to .476.

 

 

For financial superpower Boston, however, Helton could be an extraordinary find, even at high cost. He is a Gold Glove-caliber first baseman, having won that award three times, and he would complement their offense perfectly, with his ability to hit doubles, draw walks and drive up pitch counts; he is considered to be among the best two-strike hitters in baseball. Last season, in what was regarded as a subpar offensive season for Helton, he drew 91 walks, struck out just 64 times, registered a .404 on-base percentage, and averaged 3.93 pitches per plate appearance.

 

 

"His swing is not a power swing," said one National League talent evaluator. "And he hasn't been healthy. Our team was able to pound the hell out of him last year, pitch him inside, much better than you used to. It'll be interesting to see how healthy he is, and he needs to come back, if he's going to take a serious run at Cooperstown." (Helton has 286 career homers, 996 RBI, 1,700 career hits, nine straight seasons of averages better than .300).

 

"He's a line-drive-type hitter, and for the kind of money Colorado is paying him, they need power."

 

The Red Sox do not. They've got the power hitters. They would covet Helton's on-base percentage, his quality at-bats, his defense, especially if they were paying him only $8 million to $10 million a year.

 

We don't yet know what the composition of a Helton-Red Sox trade would be. It would make sense for the Rockies to ask for Kevin Youkilis in return, and on the other hand, the Red Sox have attempted repeatedly, since last summer, to engage other teams in conversation about third baseman Mike Lowell. The Rockies would probably prefer pitching, as Troy writes in his piece.

 

Perhaps the Red Sox would insist upon the inclusion of Lowell in the deal, and then the Rockies -- who don't need a third baseman -- might spin Lowell off to another team. We'll see.

 

 

The guess here is that the Red Sox would want to retain Youkilis and play him at third, because he's younger than Lowell and because he generates such tough at-bats. Conceivably, then, this could be the Boston lineup for this season, if they got Todd Helton and moved out Lowell:

 

 

SS Julio Lugo

1B Helton

DH David Ortiz

LF Manny Ramirez

RF Drew

3B Youkilis

C Jason Varitek

CF Coco Crisp

2B Dustin Pedroia

 

 

The middle of the Red Sox lineup -- from Helton in the No. 2 spot, to Youkilis in the No. 6 spot -- would chew up starting pitchers the way the Yankees' lineup does -- from lead-off hitter Johnny Damon to No. 8 hitter Robinson Cano. A trade for Helton could make the Red Sox lineup equal, in potency, to that of the Yankees, and maybe better, depending on how good A-Rod is in 2007 (A great A-Rod makes the Yankees' lineup extraordinary, while an inconsistent A-Rod changes things).

 

 

The money will be the key to the trade talks, of course. Helton's salary for each of the next four seasons is $16.6 million, and he'll make $19.1 million in 2011, with a $4 million buyout of a $23 million club option for 2012. His deal is regarded by some executives as baseball's worst contract, because it was so heavily backloaded, and because Helton's salary will be so high even as he nears his 40th birthday. The Red Sox will want the Rockies to absorb a lot of Helton's contract, the way the Angels wanted Colorado to, when that deal was discussed earlier in the off-season.

 

 

Helton also has a full no-trade clause, but may welcome an opportunity to play for a perennial contender. He has said repeatedly that if the team came to him under the premise that the best thing for the organization would be to trade Helton, he would listen earnestly; having talked with him about his situation two springs ago, I think he would approve a deal.

 

 

 

• J.D. Drew's contract could become a three-year, $42 million deal -- rather than a $72 million deal -- if he spends a specified number of days on the disabled list because of his surgically repaired shoulder, but Drew says he's very confident he'll be OK, writes Amalie Benjamin. The Drew deal promises to be scrutinized heavily, writes Steve Buckley.

 

 

The bottom line is this: If the Drew thing works out, Theo Epstein should get a heap of credit, because there aren't many executives with other teams who think this is going to work out; most rival executives think this will be a disaster. And if Drew is a bust, there will be lot of folks wondering why the Red Sox did not read all the warning signs.

 

 

If I ran the Sox, I would not have signed Drew for that kind of money. But there's a chance this deal could work out because Drew doesn't have to be The Man in this lineup. The Red Sox already have Ortiz, already have Ramirez. In effect, J.D. Drew is a complementary player. In every other situation he's been in during his career, his team desperately needed him to stay on the field and produce, but not now.

 

If Drew misses 25-30 games, it's not that big of a deal, so long as he plays in September and October. And when he is in the lineup, there will few teams, if any, that have meatgrinder 3-4-5 hitters like Ortiz, Ramirez and Drew, particularly with the patient and pesky Kevin Youkilis hitting in front of them and requiring the pitcher to throw a lot of pitches. In some respects, Drew's impact on the lineup will be like that of Bobby Abreu to the Yankees; so long as Abreu works the count and gets on base and mixes in some doubles, he's a very effective player. If Drew draws his walks, hits .280 and 25 homers, he'll be tough.

 

 

The differences: Abreu plays every game and always has, unlike Drew, and the contractual obligation is for only one year.

[ANiMAL]

i dont like his numbers in the past 2 seasons.... they dont seem so promising to me for 45mil through six years and getting rid of our prospects....

 

having him would be nice though

i guess im sketchy on what side im on for this deal

[Beckett95]

rotoworld

Todd Helton confirmed that he'd be willing to accept a deal to Boston, though if something is going to happen, he wants it to get done quickly.

 

Helton is also willing to go to Atlanta, though with the Braves' budgetary concerns, that hardly seems likely to happen. According to the Denver Post, he wouldn't accept the previously rumored deal to the Angels. The Post also says that the Red Sox offered Mike Lowell and Julian Tavarez for Helton and about $40 million of the $90.1 million he's owed over the next five years. If the Rockies want youngsters, they'd presumably have to eat more of the contract. It looks like the Red Sox have little interest in doing a deal that isn't clearly favorable for them.

 

looks like everyone over in COL wants to get this thing done

[jacksonianmarch]

This guy is a tremendous offensive force. Other than Ellsbury' date=' I don't think there is a prospect with a lot of promise in the entire system. Give them whoever they want. None of them are going to make an impact for two-three years minimum. If the Sox can win a couple of Championships in that time, it would be well worth it.[/quote']

 

he isnt the force he was when he was hitting .370 49HR and 130+RBI. That isnt him anymore. But he still maintains a very high average, will give you 20-30HR and give an OBP of around .400-.430. He will be huge in your lineup for at least the first half of this 6 yr deal.

[BSN07]

If it takes Lowell, Taveras, a prospect and Colorado eats half the contract, I would have to say is a deal worth serious consideration. The line up for the next few years would be chewing up starting pitchers and spitting them out. My only concern would be is how good Helton is in year 4 and 5? The Sox would no doubt buy out the 6th year at 23M for 4M, so we should look at this as like a 5 yr deal.

[jacksonianmarch]

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/story/492676p-415019c.html

 

The Rockies have agreed to eat half the salary, but want the sox to throw in Hansen, MDC, or Bard. The sox are balking.

 

boston globe and herald have stories out too. It seems that the Rockies want 2 players who could help down the line. Hansen has been the first name brought up, the others indicated at Bard, Ellsbury, or MDC.

[castigs850]

i think any deal were we can dump lowell and clement while the rockies pay for half of heltons contract (which is what the link above was saying) would be a steal, i dont like the idea of trading either of our top two prospects but anyone else would be worth it, especially considering how a couple of months ago it was rumored there would be a manny for helton deal

[Redsoxpoop]

Boston could not afford the more than $27 million Abreu would have cost them in salary and luxury taxes in this season and next, Epstein said.

 

"We have tremendous resources, don't get me wrong. But that's not something we can do," Epstein said. "We have a plan. We're in a position competing with less resources where we have to keep one eye on the future. We can't do certain things."

 

"That's not our dynamic," Epstein said. "We're not going to have an uber-team every year.

 

:dunno:

[jacksonianmarch]

Boston could not afford the more than $27 million Abreu would have cost them in salary and luxury taxes in this season and next, Epstein said.

 

"We have tremendous resources, don't get me wrong. But that's not something we can do," Epstein said. "We have a plan. We're in a position competing with less resources where we have to keep one eye on the future. We can't do certain things."

 

"That's not our dynamic," Epstein said. "We're not going to have an uber-team every year.

 

:dunno:

 

complete 180, hmmm.

[hoke3182]

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/story/492676p-415019c.html

 

The Rockies have agreed to eat half the salary, but want the sox to throw in Hansen, MDC, or Bard. The sox are balking.

 

boston globe and herald have stories out too. It seems that the Rockies want 2 players who could help down the line. Hansen has been the first name brought up, the others indicated at Bard, Ellsbury, or MDC.

It sounds like Lowell, Clement, Tavares, and Hansen would get it done. Then the Rockies eat half of the Helton contract, I would absolutley do this, especialy because we could by him out the sixth year.

[riverside sluggers]

Exactly, the Sox have the upperhand because

 

A) They dont necessarily need to do this deal

 

B ) The Rockies are basically doing a salary dump move. Boston could just walk away with financial burden behind that Colorado would have to deal with.

 

O'Dowd has to look at Philadelphia for a second. Bobby Abreu & the late Corey Lidle were sent to the Yankees for... a basket of crap shoot prospects & cash considerations. From Boston he could get Matt Clement (could be back by August apparently), Julian Tavarez (has 2008 option), gold glove defending 3rd baseman Mike Lowell, and a good young relief pitcher in Hansen or Delcarmen, as well as Boston taking on half of the owed salary to Helton

 

EDIT: I know that the above package is mentioned has been only speculation, just hypothesizing