Joel Pineiro to be closer???

[ORS]

Maybe you should take your own advice and read what I said, lol.

 

Not to start an argument, but my only point is this. The Yankees are much more primed to make a push for a major trade deadline deal than they have in years. I truthfully can't remember the last time we had a surplus of pitching in our farm system. Is what we have enough to land a marquee name? I really don't have an idea. I'm sure that most people didn't expect us to get Abreu and Lidle for the trash we gave up either.

 

If we can get Abreu and Lidle for what we gave up, imagine if we gave up what we got this offseason. It's just more ammunition. With that, I rest.

Comparing the Abreu/Lidle trade to acquiring a marquee young player is apples and oranges. That was a pure salary dump.

 

Sure, they'll be able to put a decent package together with the kids they acquired this year, but they'll come up short if one of the systems deep with position talent are interested.

[a700hitter]

The Yankees are much more primed to make a push for a major trade deadline deal than they have in years. I truthfully can't remember the last time we had a surplus of pitching in our farm system. Is what we have enough to land a marquee name? I really don't have an idea.

Wow! You are really getting ahead of yourself. It's not even ST and your talking about the trading deadline.

[jacksonianmarch]

Wow! You are really getting ahead of yourself. It's not even ST and your talking about the trading deadline.

 

It is always good to stockpile arms for deals, but I like the idea of us actually breaking some of these kids into our rotation/pen and getting younger. Thing is, Hughes and Ohlendorf seem to be tagged for future rotation slots. I feel as if Sanchez may see BP time by the end of the yr. But who knows. I think this Steven Jackson kid is a nice piece to have too. His stock isnt too high right now because he had such a horrible 05 as compared to his 06 which was fantastic. If this kid starts off strong in AAA this yr, we might have another big time trade chip. Who knows, but it is exciting knowing that there are so many kids who can help. The chore is figuring out which ones to deal and which ones to keep.

[jacksonianmarch]

Comparing the Abreu/Lidle trade to acquiring a marquee young player is apples and oranges. That was a pure salary dump.

 

Sure, they'll be able to put a decent package together with the kids they acquired this year, but they'll come up short if one of the systems deep with position talent are interested.

 

It was a salary dump at the time, not it is just flat out dumb. Abreu at 16 mil is actually a damn good value, and on a short term deal to boot. I'll tell you what, who would you rather have, Abreu for this yr and next at 16 mil per or JD for the next 5 yrs at 14 mil per?

[ORS]

It was a salary dump at the time' date=' not it is just flat out dumb. Abreu at 16 mil is actually a damn good value, and on a short term deal to boot. I'll tell you what, who would you rather have, Abreu for this yr and next at 16 mil per or JD for the next 5 yrs at 14 mil per?[/quote']

What does that have to do with what I said?

 

The talent involved in getting Abreu is not predictive of the return the new kids will bring due to the salary dump nature of the move. What you responded with has nothing to do with my point. Swing and a miss, Jacko.

[NateGrey]

.. Seems like Romero wants to battle it out with Pinero for the CL role ..

 

.. http://espndeportes.espn.go.com/news/story?id=526022&s=bei&type=story ..

[jacksonianmarch]

.. Seems like Romero wants to battle it out with Pinero for the CL role ..

 

.. http://espndeportes.espn.go.com/news/story?id=526022&s=bei&type=story ..

 

he will be battling it out for who is the closer? Maybe closer to the DFA pile!

[ksushi]

Touche.

[jacksonianmarch]

Touche.

 

Who do you think will finish the season as closer?

[example1]

Papelbon. He will be the 5th starter and will be moved back into the closer/relief ace role for the playoffs and World Series. He's the ace in the hole.

 

 

Let's hope that's the scenario at least.

 

Barring that craziness, Bryce Cox or Craig Hansen.

[jacksonianmarch]

if Bryce Cox is in the majors one yr after drafting him, the sox brass should be lined up and shot. Especially after watching what happened to the latter above when he was promoted too quickly.

[example1]

Hey man, if the kid is 28 or 22 if he has the stuff he might be needed. 22 is not 18.

[jacksonianmarch]

Hey man' date=' if the kid is 28 or 22 if he has the stuff he might be needed. 22 is not 18.[/quote']

 

Hansen has the stuff too. You have to develop them in terms of command. And the last college kid I saw come out and have enough command to be dominant at the big league level right away was Prior. And that is what you would need. Dominance. You arent asking Cox to come up and be a middle reliever. He needs to come up and be the best pitcher in your bullpen. If he had the command to handle the bigs right now, he never would have fallen to the sox in the 3rd round. Develop him, give him at least a full yr in the minors and bring him up in September if you are desperate. But after watching guys like Hansen and MDC fail when called upon, dont ruin the last big time prospect you have in the pen (Edgar is second tier in comparison to what I have heard on Cox).

[BSN07]

As far as I see it, we didn't have a closer last yr at this time, before Foulke we didn't have a closer but Lowe for a season or two. We have never had a great closer(besides Paps last yr), no team besides NYY and SD have had shut down guys for closers for an extended amount of time. Closers come and go faster then Blunts at a Snoop Dogg show. You use one while he works and then when he doesn't you move on to the next guy.

 

Hansen and MDC will be solid this yr I think, yes jackson I know you think there ruined, but most pitchers hit bumps in the rd along the way. yes hansen was rushed but he has enough talent to bounce back and he might not even be on the team after ST. Hansen,MDC and a couple other guys are pretty much fighting for one spot.

 

 

Manny,Papi,Youk,Pedroia,Drew,Lugo,Lowell,Crisp,Pena,Hinske,Tek,Marabelli,Cora(13)

 

Schilling,Beckett,Matsuzaka,Paps,Wakefield(5)

Timlin,Donnely,Pinerio,Okajima ,Romero,Tavarez (6)

 

Theres only one spot left for either MDC,Hansen,Hansack,ect. So someone will be starting the season in AAA barring injury.

[jacksonianmarch]

As far as I see it, we didn't have a closer last yr at this time, before Foulke we didn't have a closer but Lowe for a season or two. We have never had a great closer(besides Paps last yr), no team besides NYY and SD have had shut down guys for closers for an extended amount of time. Closers come and go faster then Blunts at a Snoop Dogg show. You use one while he works and then when he doesn't you move on to the next guy.

 

Hansen and MDC will be solid this yr I think, yes jackson I know you think there ruined, but most pitchers hit bumps in the rd along the way. yes hansen was rushed but he has enough talent to bounce back and he might not even be on the team after ST. Hansen,MDC and a couple other guys are pretty much fighting for one spot.

 

 

Manny,Papi,Youk,Pedroia,Drew,Lugo,Lowell,Crisp,Pena,Hinske,Tek,Marabelli,Cora(13)

 

Schilling,Beckett,Matsuzaka,Paps,Wakefield(5)

Timlin,Donnely,Pinerio,Okajima ,Romero,Tavarez (6)

 

Theres only one spot left for either MDC,Hansen,Hansack,ect. So someone will be starting the season in AAA barring injury.

 

I am willing to give players chances, no doubt. I just think you need to get back to basics with guys who fail. Hansen needs to be rebuilt before he can be thrown to the wolves again. Last season gave no indication that he would be good this yr. Send him down, break down his mechanics, get back to what made him a highly sought after 1st rounder and put him back out there a finished product. He never got what I am advocating Cox get. Time to develop, mentally and physically. Hansen has the stuff, he has a 97mph fastball, a plus plus slider, a diving 2 seamer that hits mid 90s, but he has a 2 cent head. Let him mature a little and he could be something special. But as is, he is damaged good. Fix the damage and see what you have. I would take MDC 10 times out of 10 on the opening day roster over Hansen. He needs work under less stress, and Boston isnt going to give it to him. Time for Pawsox fever for Hansen.

[BSN07]

I agree with you, unless Hansen does a 180 in ST I think MDC will be on the roster with Hansen in AAA. Which I have no problem with. We will just have to wait and see what happens.

[jacksonianmarch]

I agree with you' date=' unless Hansen does a 180 in ST I think MDC will be on the roster with Hansen in AAA. Which I have no problem with. We will just have to wait and see what happens.[/quote']

 

spring training is not what he needs. I remember a certain power armed righty who was billed as the power pitching surprise of the yr 2 seasons ago. His name was Matt Mantei. Hansen needs a good spring and then to still be demoted. ST is strange. Most of the time you are facing half lineups and by the end of the game you are facing AAA kids or AAAA retreads. He needs a full season of AAA regardless how well he does in ST.

[ANiMAL]

keeping hansen off of the ML roster for now is what he needs, so i agree with jacksonian. but at the same time i think he needs to pulled up at the right time so his confidence is at max and his performance is at max. He needs to not worry about where he'll end up tomorrow, he needs to pitch and no that no matter how he does, he will stay put. I think that he should be told to pitch in AAA and he will not be promoted, but yet reanalyze him at the allstar break and figure out if he is needed on the roster

[jacksonianmarch]

from rotoworld.

 

Red Sox manager Terry Francona said Jonathan Papelbon would move back to the bullpen only if the anointed closer fails, Papelbon struggles as a starter and the doctors OK the move.

 

"I suppose the possibility exists, but I think it's a long shot," Francona said, adding such a move would come "way into the season." That's coming from a person who probably favors having Papelbon in the closer's role more than anyone in the front office.

[ImissPedro]

What will come of piniero's role if he proves to be ineffective? Will he even be kept in relief or bumped from the bullpen.

[jacksonianmarch]

probably released an an expensive failed experiment. I still think this whole bullpen by committee thing will bow up again and by the time they right the ship, they'll be fighting for the WC. The Yankees team is built for the regular season, they will bash the s*** teams and play .500+ ball vs the good teams. If there is any slip in that pen, they will be too far behind to catch up.

[mar_022]

in a press conference, tito said the closer will likely be from these four:

 

Tavarez, Donnelly, Timlin, Piniero

 

http://boston.redsox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070206&content_id=1795499&vkey=news_bos&fext=.jsp&c_id=bos

[Mr Crunchy]

the red sox have led the division on june 1st every single year since 1998 except for 2004

whats this tell us??

it tells me we always lack pitching depth and get burnt by it late in the summer when we tend to gag up the division

 

what does ny have that we havent got

rivera

thats it,case closed bottom line end of story

last year was different than in years past

we were cooked as we sat in 1st place with our middle pen (timlin)being useless and the starters in the 3-4-5 slots sucking to the point of theo et al surrendering the division in july.

a healthy wakefield can eat up 200 innings if hes up for it,this will help

however

if we go in with joelle pineiro or mike timlin as our closer we got some problems

[jacksonianmarch]

the red sox have led the division on june 1st every single year since 1998 except for 2004

whats this tell us??

it tells me we always lack pitching depth and get burnt by it late in the summer when we tend to gag up the division

 

what does ny have that we havent got

rivera

thats it,case closed bottom line end of story

last year was different than in years past

we were cooked as we sat in 1st place with our middle pen (timlin)being useless and the starters in the 3-4-5 slots sucking to the point of theo et al surrendering the division in july.

a healthy wakefield can eat up 200 innings if hes up for it,this will help

however

if we go in with joelle pineiro or mike timlin as our closer we got some problems

 

The sox always shoot the yogurt early in the yr. The thing is, though, this yankee team as well as the last 3 are built for regular season dominance. An insane lineup, a pitching staff that at the very least will give moderately effective innings, and a lights out pen. It may not be the best playoff scenario, but it has gotten them to the ALE championships for a long time now. That being said, the sox cannot just give up games and chalk them up to experimenting in the pen. You lose games you should have won by having a craptastic closing situation, and the yankees will use those to their advantage. The Yankees as constituted will win 100 or so games. If you want the east, you have better not give away any. And having an unfinished bullpen gives away games.

[Mr Crunchy]

i know im being redundant here and even nauseating in repeating this but arroyo wouldve given us a shot down the stretch

call me crazy,ive been called worse but consider his innings pitched (230 ) and his era when he left the al east (4.5?)

then compare it to the lenny dinardo experiment or jj johnson or snyder or gabbard or any of these other f*** bag posers who were given to us last summer as arroyos replacement

 

then consider the tax on the bullpen which cannot be calculated statistically

 

of course you had paps go down and then manny gave up in august and papis heart condition etc....so it may not have mattered but

it became quite clear in april that moving arroyo for a 4th outfielder was one of the stupidiest things this management group has done and we paid dearly for this indiscretion

[jacksonianmarch]

I agree with your there. The sox had no contingency plans when they dealt Arroyo. If they had him last yr, then things might have been different. Instead of passing on Abreu, they may have acquired him and his presence in the yankee lineup was the major catalyst for that 5 game drubbing.

 

I dont like dealing pitching, I really dont. UNLESS, you are dealing a defective product and you have significant depth. Last season, the sox entered the yr with a rotation of

Schilling, Clement, Wells, Wakefield, and Beckett. 3 of those guys had recent injury histories at the time. Their contingency plan was a rookie by the name of Lester, with no other minor league impact player even close to available. You have to have more than just that.

[stevece80]

I think people are dismissing Pineiro as a reliever a bit too soon. Relieving is a completely different ballgame, and likely better suited for someone with Pineiro's stuff.

 

If you look at the top 10 in saves in the AL last season, you have:

 

Rodriguez-LAA

Jenks-CHW

Ryan-TOR

Jones-DET

Street-OAK

Nathan-MIN

Putz-SEA

Papelbon-BOS

Rivera-NYY

Ray-BAL

 

Francisco Rodriguez' final minor league season as a starter, 2001 in A ball, 5.38 ERA over 113 2/3 innings. Bobby Jenks, career minor league ERA of 4.77, 77 of his 115 appearances were starts. BJ Ryan has always been a reliever, as has Huston Street. Todd Jones flamed out (no pun intended) as a starter in the minors before making a successful conversion to a reliever. Joe Nathan sports a career 4.93 ERA in the minors on account of 93 minor league starts, he was just as lackluster in the majors. JJ Putz, Chris Ray and Jonathan Papelbon both have been successful in both roles. Mariano Rivera had a pretty rough go of things as a Yankee starter in his rookie season.

 

Bottom line is good relievers tend to be failed starters. Look for a second at Latroy Hawkins' numbers through a similar point in his career to Joel Pineiro. Assuming Pineiro is healthy, his stuff combined with his ability to induce groundballs should make him a good candidate as any to close games. Contrary to what some might think, closers do come out of nowhere. I'd say 75 percent of them hit a roadblock before finding their niche in the bullpen.

[jacksonianmarch]

Guys who fail as starters and become solid setup men is typically due to limited arsenal or inability to handle higher level workloads. Pineiro's problem has been a severe decline in stuff throughout his arsenal. That does not translate well to closing unless he finds that 96mph fastball again.

[ORS]

Guys who fail as starters and become solid setup men is typically due to limited arsenal or inability to handle higher level workloads. Pineiro's problem has been a severe decline in stuff throughout his arsenal. That does not translate well to closing unless he finds that 96mph fastball again.

No chance those two are related, huh? He's a project for sure. That said, there's no telling how a change in role will affect his stuff until we see how he's throwing as a reliever.

[jacksonianmarch]

my point ORS, was that the guys who strived in closers role yet failed as starters still had electric stuff. They just couldnt handle 5+ innings or only had 2 pitches. Pineiro has 3-4 pitches depending on what scouting service you believe and he hadnt had any problems with going deep into games that he didnt get knocked around in. The biggest problem was his heat going from 95-97 to 90-92 and his breaking ball losing bite and location. Recover his stuff and you could potentially recover an ace starter, not just a good reliever. But that is easier said than done.