Yankees trying for Clemens, earlier start to season?

[jacksonianmarch]

I have a funny feeling Clemens will play for the team that writes the biggest check.

 

I think Boston or NY would have to seriously outbid Houston, because if you factor in cost of living and taxes, Houston will make that bank go further.

[a700hitter]

The operative term is "reached". That time is passed my friend. Coming back to NY will open up many more opportunities for him, and I'll tell you what. If he leads NY back to the WS after 6 yrs of debauchery and debachle, then he'll be a big time hero. Boston no longer has the whole lovable losers, or heartbreak city title attached to it now that it won 2 yrs back. If the sox had not won a WS, then I'd follow you a bit. But now, the sox dont have that draw of breaking the curse.

 

Plus, I think the bloom came off the rose when he was forced out well before his time. And btw, if he wants to go into the hall as a yankee, he'll need to put in another yr.

Again, you are just not getting it. He would not have to win a championship in Boston to get a heroes welcome. It would be the return of the Prodigal Son. He wouldn';t have to do a thing to earn the adulation of the fans except don the Red Sox uniform. You don't understand Red Sox fans or the region, but Roger and his agents do understand.

[a700hitter]

I think Boston or NY would have to seriously outbid Houston' date=' because if you factor in cost of living and taxes, Houston will make that bank go further.[/quote']They will all bid about the same. The only question is whether Houston will have any interest. If they are interested, they will get him.

[jacksonianmarch]

I understand the region very well. Grew up in NE, lived in Mass for a long time. Clemens was not thought of highly when he left to Toronto. Then he was reviled while he was a yankee. Now, 3 yrs pass, and he is some sort of prodigal son?

 

So let me get this straight. He wont go back to the manager he loved playing for, the organization he wants to go into the HOF with, the teammates he won WS rings with, the organization that will undoubtedly put up the biggest bid, the organization who just signed his best friend whom he has played with for 8 seasons, and the place with the most extra-baseball cash opportunities for the feeling of the fans in Boston? Yeah, I see that happening. Also, if the sox go over the luxury tax again, they will be 3rd time offenders and their % goes up to 40%. I know Cashman doesnt give a rats ass, but would John Henry be willing to throw 20mil at Clemens knowing that it really is 28mil for a 45 yr old pitcher? Logic, 700 my boy, is always better than the warm and fuzzies you may get from thinking about a certain situation. While we are at it, I heard Johnny Damon wants to return to Kansas City and ARod wants to go back to Seattle cause the prodigal son feel is worth way more than anything else in their mind. (just kidding).

[a700hitter]

I understand the region very well. Grew up in NE, lived in Mass for a long time. Clemens was not thought of highly when he left to Toronto. Then he was reviled while he was a yankee. Now, 3 yrs pass, and he is some sort of prodigal son?

 

So let me get this straight. He wont go back to the manager he loved playing for, the organization he wants to go into the HOF with, the teammates he won WS rings with, the organization that will undoubtedly put up the biggest bid, the organization who just signed his best friend whom he has played with for 8 seasons, and the place with the most extra-baseball cash opportunities for the feeling of the fans in Boston? Yeah, I see that happening. Also, if the sox go over the luxury tax again, they will be 3rd time offenders and their % goes up to 40%. I know Cashman doesnt give a rats ass, but would John Henry be willing to throw 20mil at Clemens knowing that it really is 28mil for a 45 yr old pitcher? Logic, 700 my boy, is always better than the warm and fuzzies you may get from thinking about a certain situation. While we are at it, I heard Johnny Damon wants to return to Kansas City and ARod wants to go back to Seattle cause the prodigal son feel is worth way more than anything else in their mind. (just kidding).

It's got nothing to do with warm and fuzzies. It's got to do with $. You are in Dice-K mode here. You've got yourself convinced, and you are not processing the other side of the story. We've gone through this broken record argument before. Clemens doesn't give a rats ass about warm and fuzzies, but he'll give the fans what they want if it means $ in his pocket. it's called a marketing opportunity. Knock knock is anyone home, Jacksonian. What makes you think the Yankees will make a blow out bid. The Astros, Yankees and Red Sox made essentially the same bids last year. All of a sudden Cashman is going to blow away the field for Clemens when he didn't do it last year? That doesn't make sense.

 

BTW: When Clemens went to Toronto, he was welcomed back to Fenway as a hero as he kicked our ass.

[jacksonianmarch]

And how many times do I need to tell you my friend that you are more marketable in cities where there are more marketing opps. NYC is the biggest city in america. It is also the Mecca for advertising, ask any advertising executive and they'll tell you straight out (my wife is one, so I dont have to go very far). Combine big city with marketing Mecca on perhaps the most world renowned team in sports worldwide and then take the best pitcher of our era and return him there. Nobody can beat that 700. Not even the warm and fuzzy feel of NESN specials closing the circle on Clemens.

[ORS]

And how many times do I need to tell you my friend that you are more marketable in cities where there are more marketing opps. NYC is the biggest city in america. It is also the Mecca for advertising' date=' ask any advertising executive and they'll tell you straight out (my wife is one, so I dont have to go very far). Combine big city with marketing Mecca on perhaps the most world renowned team in sports worldwide and then take the best pitcher of our era and return him there. Nobody can beat that 700. Not even the warm and fuzzy feel of NESN specials closing the circle on Clemens.[/quote']

The problem with your weak argument is that you limit his market impact to only the NESN market. Clemens returning to Boston is a national/international story of a magnitude that can't be matched by a return to NY. That, despite your attempts to ignore it, is what tips the marketing scale in Boston's favor.

 

Now, you bring up very good points about JWH not wanting to go over the LT threshold, and about him wanting to play where Pettitte is playing. I'm not so sure about his desire to go into the HOF as a Yankee. That comment came when he was wearing the uniform and pissed off at previous Boston management. The new group has made strides to mend that bridge, so I don't think old emotions are still in play.

[a700hitter]

And how many times do I need to tell you my friend that you are more marketable in cities where there are more marketing opps. NYC is the biggest city in america. It is also the Mecca for advertising' date=' ask any advertising executive and they'll tell you straight out (my wife is one, so I dont have to go very far). Combine big city with marketing Mecca on perhaps the most world renowned team in sports worldwide and then take the best pitcher of our era and return him there. Nobody can beat that 700. Not even the warm and fuzzy feel of NESN specials closing the circle on Clemens.[/quote']NY does have the biggest and most prestigious advertising firms in the country. One of the reasons they are good is because they know where the markets are. They may conceive the marketing strategies, but those opportunities are not always in NY. The client does not have to live or work in NY to put a NY marketing firm to work. Clemens biggest market after retirement would not be NY if he were to return to Boston for a farewell tour. You obviously can't see it. If you are trying to convince me that Clemens ever had or will have as big a following in NY as he did and could have again in Boston, I'd have to say that you are in Dice-K delusion mode.

 

BTW it is not lost on Clemens, his attorneys or even the NY marketing firms that the market in Boston is a maturing market. The 15, 20 and 25 year old fans when Clemens left town will be earning more and more money for a number of years.

[jacksonianmarch]

Man, you truly have travelled deep into your delusion. I'll wake you up when he signs in NY and then you'll be my bitch (sig wise).

[a700hitter]

Man' date=' you truly have travelled deep into your delusion. I'll wake you up when he signs in NY and then you'll be my bitch (sig wise).[/quote']Yes, and I was delusional about Dice-K too. Oh no, that was you.

[Mr Crunchy]

im all for mr april to pitch in ny this season

distracting self centered maggot that he is

he'll fit in well with the ego maniacs that have prevented them from winning this century

[26 Reasons to Hate Us]

Yes' date=' and I was delusional about Dice-K too. Oh no, that was you.[/quote']

 

The Red Sox win one bidding war (a blind one at that) and you get some serious confidence. We will see how it all plays out, but the Yanks are still yet to be outbid on the regular FA market for a player they truly want. I don't expect this to change anytime soon.

[a700hitter]

The Red Sox win one bidding war (a blind one at that) and you get some serious confidence. We will see how it all plays out' date=' but the Yanks are still yet to be outbid on the regular FA market for a player they truly want. I don't expect this to change anytime soon.[/quote']You too have missed the point. Swing and a miss 26. Jacksonian's delusions to which I am referring had nothing to do with the the bidding process, but rather the negotiating process where Jacksonian engaged in one delusional/conspiracy theory after another for three weeks only to have Dice-K to sign for the insulting sum of $8.5 million a year. Let's make something crystal clear, because a number of you are not reading posts very carefully. I am not claiming the Red Sox will outbid either Houston or NY. I think they will all bid about the same if they want him. if Houston enters the bidding, they'll get him because of he has a long term contract with them after he retires, his son is in the organization, and he will not have to make road trips. If Houston does n't enter the sweepstakes, Boston has more to offer to the Rocket in future years. You can dispute that if you want, but after an athletes playing days are over he has nothing to trade on but his good name. Why wouldn't he want to improve his branding in New England. He'd be a fool if he didn't. His branding in NY was never anything special, and he'd have to win a WS with the Yankees in '07 to have any hope of materially improving his branding in NY. In Boston, all he would have to do is put on the uni and take the mound. That being said there does exist the possibility that the Yankees blow out the competition on the bid, but I just don't see that happening, because they didn't do it last year.

 

BTW your manager has expressed that he would not tolerate the Rocket not making road trips. Francona and the Red Sox are used to coddling prima donas.

[Cocos Disciples]

I think Boston or NY would have to seriously outbid Houston' date=' because if you factor in cost of living and taxes, Houston will make that bank go further.[/quote']

 

I just can't believe he would go for the money rather than the wins...if I were him, I'd rather have my last year be a championship where I made a little less than a 3rd place finish with a little more.

[example1]

You too have missed the point. Swing and a miss 26. Jacksonian's delusions to which I am referring had nothing to do with the the bidding process, but rather the negotiating process where Jacksonian engaged in one delusional/conspiracy theory after another for three weeks only to have Dice-K to sign for the insulting sum of $8.5 million a year. Let's make something crystal clear, because a number of you are not reading posts very carefully. I am not claiming the Red Sox will outbid either Houston or NY. I think they will all bid about the same if they want him. if Houston enters the bidding, they'll get him because of he has a long term contract with them after he retires, his son is in the organization, and he will not have to make road trips. If Houston does n't enter the sweepstakes, Boston has more to offer to the Rocket in future years. You can dispute that if you want, but after an athletes playing days are over he has nothing to trade on but his good name. Why wouldn't he want to improve his branding in New England. He'd be a fool if he didn't. His branding in NY was never anything special, and he'd have to win a WS with the Yankees in '07 to have any hope of materially improving his branding in NY. In Boston, all he would have to do is put on the uni and take the mound. That being said there does exist the possibility that the Yankees blow out the competition on the bid, but I just don't see that happening, because they didn't do it last year.

 

BTW your manager has expressed that he would not tolerate the Rocket not making road trips. Francona and the Red Sox are used to coddling prima donas.

 

An excellent post. I think if the Sox were to land Clemens it would be an absolute coup, given they've already signed matsuzaka.

 

Clemens

Schilling

Matsuzaka

Beckett

Papelbon

 

nasty.

[Gom]

You too have missed the point. Swing and a miss 26. Jacksonian's delusions to which I am referring had nothing to do with the the bidding process, but rather the negotiating process where Jacksonian engaged in one delusional/conspiracy theory after another for three weeks only to have Dice-K to sign for the insulting sum of $8.5 million a year. Let's make something crystal clear, because a number of you are not reading posts very carefully. I am not claiming the Red Sox will outbid either Houston or NY. I think they will all bid about the same if they want him. if Houston enters the bidding, they'll get him because of he has a long term contract with them after he retires, his son is in the organization, and he will not have to make road trips. If Houston does n't enter the sweepstakes, Boston has more to offer to the Rocket in future years. You can dispute that if you want, but after an athletes playing days are over he has nothing to trade on but his good name. Why wouldn't he want to improve his branding in New England. He'd be a fool if he didn't. His branding in NY was never anything special, and he'd have to win a WS with the Yankees in '07 to have any hope of materially improving his branding in NY. In Boston, all he would have to do is put on the uni and take the mound. That being said there does exist the possibility that the Yankees blow out the competition on the bid, but I just don't see that happening, because they didn't do it last year.

 

BTW your manager has expressed that he would not tolerate the Rocket not making road trips. Francona and the Red Sox are used to coddling prima donas.

 

I mainly agree with this statement. However, I feel that the Yankees, if they do trade Randy Johnson, will make a serious push for Clemens before the season begins. They will have the money previously allocated to Johnson, an opening in the rotation, his best friend just signed with the Yankees. For both teams, he will be looked upon as a savior if they win, but more so in New York, since we haven't won without him, but the Sox have.

 

I think Clemens is the Boras of players. He goes where the money is. This is why I believe the EXACT OPPOSITE of what he says. By stating that he wants to end his career, go full circle and go back to the Sox, I believe it is nothing more than a ploy to get the Yankees to spit out more money, which they will. I can't see Cashman keeping his job if he loses Clemens to the Red Sox after losing Matsuzaka. I do not believe the Astros are serious bidders anymore, I can't see him pitching and losing his 473rd consecutive game in Houston by a score of 1-0. That must be tiring. I think all things considered even, he signs with Boston. I think the Yankees will offer him more money, due to an increased need as well as more funds to allocate. The question will be whether it will be enough.

 

Knowing Clemens' behavior pattern, he ends up with the Yankees. I admit, a lot of this is just plain hope.

[a700hitter]

I mainly agree with this statement. However, I feel that the Yankees, if they do trade Randy Johnson, will make a serious push for Clemens before the season begins. They will have the money previously allocated to Johnson, an opening in the rotation, his best friend just signed with the Yankees. For both teams, he will be looked upon as a savior if they win, but more so in New York, since we haven't won without him, but the Sox have.

 

I think Clemens is the Boras of players. He goes where the money is. This is why I believe the EXACT OPPOSITE of what he says. By stating that he wants to end his career, go full circle and go back to the Sox, I believe it is nothing more than a ploy to get the Yankees to spit out more money, which they will. I can't see Cashman keeping his job if he loses Clemens to the Red Sox after losing Matsuzaka. I do not believe the Astros are serious bidders anymore, I can't see him pitching and losing his 473rd consecutive game in Houston by a score of 1-0. That must be tiring. I think all things considered even, he signs with Boston. I think the Yankees will offer him more money, due to an increased need as well as more funds to allocate. The question will be whether it will be enough.

 

Knowing Clemens' behavior pattern, he ends up with the Yankees. I admit, a lot of this is just plain hope.

It's possible that the Yankees would blow everyone away with thier offer, but they had the chance to do so last year and they didn't do it. Last year they opted for Cory Lidle R.I.P. Why would Cashman go nuts with a blow out offer for a 44 year old when he had a 43-yr old under contract for the year at about $3-4 million less than Clemens will be asking. Also, Clemens might not want to pitch until June. It just doesn't add up. I could see this if they were unloading a long term contract by unloading the Unit, but he was a one-year commitment.

[jacksonianmarch]

It's possible that the Yankees would blow everyone away with thier offer' date=' but they had the chance to do so last year and they didn't do it. Last year they opted for Cory Lidle R.I.P. Why would Cashman go nuts with a blow out offer for a 44 year old when he had a 43-yr old under contract for the year at about $3-4 million less than Clemens will be asking. Also, Clemens might not want to pitch until June. It just doesn't add up. I could see this if they were unloading a long term contract by unloading the Unit, but he was a one-year commitment.[/quote']

 

I think it is more seeing is believing type of stuff. He saw Clemens. The guy now has more pitches than he ever had and he still brings it in the low 90s. He has adjusted to age. The big problem with RJ is that he hasnt. RJ still thinks that 2 pitches is enough to win, and in the ALE, that s*** dont fly. Especially when the heat is 3-4mph slower and the slider hangs more times than not. Plus, Clemens was here the last time we won it all. He has playoff success in NY and thrives under the bright lights. Everything that Randy was not.

 

Plus, if RJ is dealt for prospects and then Clemens is signed, then essentially Cashman replaced an aging declining pitcher for an aging ace while acquiring prospects for a potential deal for Johan or Dontrelle in a yr.

[a700hitter]

I think it is more seeing is believing type of stuff. He saw Clemens. The guy now has more pitches than he ever had and he still brings it in the low 90s. He has adjusted to age. The big problem with RJ is that he hasnt. RJ still thinks that 2 pitches is enough to win, and in the ALE, that s*** dont fly. Especially when the heat is 3-4mph slower and the slider hangs more times than not. Plus, Clemens was here the last time we won it all. He has playoff success in NY and thrives under the bright lights. Everything that Randy was not.

 

Plus, if RJ is dealt for prospects and then Clemens is signed, then essentially Cashman replaced an aging declining pitcher for an aging ace while acquiring prospects for a potential deal for Johan or Dontrelle in a yr.

It's sound strategy, but the Yankees will need to blow the other teams out of the water to get him.

[jacksonianmarch]

It's sound strategy' date=' but the Yankees will need to blow the other teams out of the water to get him.[/quote']

 

I dont think so. You figure that young arms are what everyone is seeking these days. If the yankees are able to dangle 2 or 3 of those top 10 prospects that have made it to AAA, then I dont think many teams can beat that. At the same time, by adding depth to the AAA level, the yankees can make a big deal and still hang onto Hughes, which is a necessity.

 

Plus, anyone acquiring Johan would have to be able to give him a monster deal. That eliminates a lot of competition out of the get go. I actually feel that any market involving Willis should be avoided by AL East teams. Any market involving Johan will be less than what most think as I see a Soriano scenario taking place. Nobody is going to want to give up TONS of talent for a half yr rental.

[TheKilo]

I dont think so. You figure that young arms are what everyone is seeking these days. If the yankees are able to dangle 2 or 3 of those top 10 prospects that have made it to AAA, then I dont think many teams can beat that. At the same time, by adding depth to the AAA level, the yankees can make a big deal and still hang onto Hughes, which is a necessity.

 

Plus, anyone acquiring Johan would have to be able to give him a monster deal. That eliminates a lot of competition out of the get go. I actually feel that any market involving Willis should be avoided by AL East teams. Any market involving Johan will be less than what most think as I see a Soriano scenario taking place. Nobody is going to want to give up TONS of talent for a half yr rental.

 

 

Johan Santana isn't going ANYWHERE.

[a700hitter]

I dont think so. You figure that young arms are what everyone is seeking these days. If the yankees are able to dangle 2 or 3 of those top 10 prospects that have made it to AAA, then I dont think many teams can beat that. At the same time, by adding depth to the AAA level, the yankees can make a big deal and still hang onto Hughes, which is a necessity.

 

Plus, anyone acquiring Johan would have to be able to give him a monster deal. That eliminates a lot of competition out of the get go. I actually feel that any market involving Willis should be avoided by AL East teams. Any market involving Johan will be less than what most think as I see a Soriano scenario taking place. Nobody is going to want to give up TONS of talent for a half yr rental.

I was referring to Clemens.

[CrespoBlows]

I dont think so. You figure that young arms are what everyone is seeking these days. If the yankees are able to dangle 2 or 3 of those top 10 prospects that have made it to AAA, then I dont think many teams can beat that. At the same time, by adding depth to the AAA level, the yankees can make a big deal and still hang onto Hughes, which is a necessity.

 

Plus, anyone acquiring Johan would have to be able to give him a monster deal. That eliminates a lot of competition out of the get go. I actually feel that any market involving Willis should be avoided by AL East teams. Any market involving Johan will be less than what most think as I see a Soriano scenario taking place. Nobody is going to want to give up TONS of talent for a half yr rental.

 

Santana isn't going anywhere unless Hughes is going back to Minnesota.

[jacksonianmarch]

Santana isn't going anywhere unless Hughes is going back to Minnesota.

 

I think it will be what is on the table and where the Twins are. By the time Santana will be on the block (potentially this trade deadline but most likely next offseason) Hughes may already have established himself in the rotation. He may also be on the shelf with injury or another guy will have outshone him etc. Also, if the twins fall like a rock (which is possible without Radke and Liriano) then Santana will be dealt. If the twins rise, then santana doesnt need to be dealt. If the twins suck, then the return on a deal for him will be smaller.

 

Also, Kilo, there was a report in Minnesota that Johan may find his name on the block this season as Minnesota knows that after 08, Johan will likely get a MONSTER deal.

[CrespoBlows]

I think it will be what is on the table and where the Twins are. By the time Santana will be on the block (potentially this trade deadline but most likely next offseason) Hughes may already have established himself in the rotation. He may also be on the shelf with injury or another guy will have outshone him etc. Also, if the twins fall like a rock (which is possible without Radke and Liriano) then Santana will be dealt. If the twins rise, then santana doesnt need to be dealt. If the twins suck, then the return on a deal for him will be smaller.

 

Also, Kilo, there was a report in Minnesota that Johan may find his name on the block this season as Minnesota knows that after 08, Johan will likely get a MONSTER deal.

 

If Hughes is in the rotation, then the Yankees chances of dealing him are pretty much zilch. Unless, they want to surrender Sanchez, Tabata, plus at least one more top prospect.

[Cocos Disciples]

I highly highly highly doubt Johan Santana will be traded...the Twins are going to be at least a decent team with a glimpse of a playoff hope.

[hoke3182]

You guys usually are rational in your thoughts but the Twins dealing Santana is absolutley crazy. End this discusdsion now

[jacksonianmarch]

You guys usually are rational in your thoughts but the Twins dealing Santana is absolutley crazy. End this discusdsion now

 

Take a look at this.

 

http://www.startribune.com/508/story/905897.html

 

You can let Hunter leave as a free agent and get away with it. You can't possibly do the same with Santana, perhaps the most valuable individual commodity in the game at the moment.

 

Johan will be dealt before the Twins report to spring training in 2008. That became a given when the Giants presented $18 million per year to Zito.

 

[TheKilo]

I think it will be what is on the table and where the Twins are. By the time Santana will be on the block (potentially this trade deadline but most likely next offseason) Hughes may already have established himself in the rotation. He may also be on the shelf with injury or another guy will have outshone him etc. Also, if the twins fall like a rock (which is possible without Radke and Liriano) then Santana will be dealt. If the twins rise, then santana doesnt need to be dealt. If the twins suck, then the return on a deal for him will be smaller.

 

Also, Kilo, there was a report in Minnesota that Johan may find his name on the block this season as Minnesota knows that after 08, Johan will likely get a MONSTER deal.

 

Don't sell the Twins short. They were pretty good in the second half last year without Liriano. I think their young pitchers (Bonser, Garza, etc.) can do a more than adequate job of filling in for the combo of Radke and Liriano. The Twins will always be in the race with Santana throwing every 5th day.

 

Don't be shocked if Santana sacrifices a couple mil to remain in Minnesota, either. These monster deals for superstars are becoming less prevalent. I also think Florida will try to do all it can to keep Miguel Cabrera.

[jacksonianmarch]

it wouldnt be a couple mil. They are at max salary. Santana will double his current salary on the open market (10 mil right now). Minny has no prayer of inking him when they'll have Mauer and Morneau to worry about.