To get a closer

[BSN07]

I forone am not concerned with the Closers position. We where in the same boat last year and we didn't overreact or sell the farm but found Paps. Throw Hansen, Bard, Cox and maybe a couple of the vets into auditions for the closrs role and see which one steps up. Hansen will be better this year with a new pitching coach, Bard touches 100MPH when he feels like it and could easily do it all the time as a closer, Cox I'll be honest I don't know much about him, just what I've heard, and from that he sounds like he has the stuff for it.

 

I don't expect another Paps to fall into our laps( although it could happen) but just because we don't have a closer now doesn't mean we won't find one amongst the ranks.

 

I am def. against sending Bucholz and Bowden for Cordero. To me starting pitching is priceless. either do like I suggested above or go after someone else who is cheaper, like dusch in Oakland or someone like that that won't cost an arm and leg. I still believe we can find a closer out of the three guys I suggested above.

[jacksonianmarch]

If you're willing to give up Chamberlain, Sanchez and an inexpensive Farnsworth for Cordero then more power to you. I just tend to worry about giving up three arms that will likely contribute in one way or another for one, especially in the overrated closer position.

 

If Bowden and Buchholz put up numbers as they have so far next season, their value on the trade market would rise indeed. Even without having played a MLB game, by waiting a year you could be trading them as the centerpiece of a deal the way we could have done with Lester a few years back. The very argument that it doesn't count until after AA works both ways, in that when they do well at AA their value increases into the elite status and you have to let them ripen to get to that point.

 

I agree with the premise that the numbers don't entirely count until after AA. I don't agree that you can't predict a trajectory based on numbers below AA. In other words, I'd be willing to bet that a computer analysis would show that the players who tend to be better than their peers are AA also tended to be better than their peers at A and below. Having success at lower levels likely has some correlation with success at other levels, but its just harder to see it statistically.

 

For pitchers especially this is difficult, because if they are throwing pitches that guys can't hit at one level that doesn't mean a guy can't hit it at a higher level. It also doesn't mean they can. I imagine Bowden and Buchholz made their share of straight-up nasty pitches this past season that even major league hitters would have missed. Wait a year and they gain tons of value.

 

Don't let the Nationals play us out of these guys.!!

 

 

example. I dont think you are making a fair analogy here. You keep tossing in Sanchez like he is some sort of low level minor leaguer. If you want to make a fair analogy, then it should be JB Cox (will be in AAA as a closer/SU man this yr just like Hansen should be) and one of the trio of Chamberlain, Kennedy or Betances. I never advocated sending the Nationals Hansen, Buchholz, and Bowden. I did advocate sending them Hansen and whichever one of the B's they liked best. So, if Mo up and retired right now, then I'd tell the Nats "you can have Cox and one of the trio of Chamberlain, Betances, and Kennedy." Make your pick.

[jacksonianmarch]

I forone am not concerned with the Closers position. We where in the same boat last year and we didn't overreact or sell the farm but found Paps. Throw Hansen, Bard, Cox and maybe a couple of the vets into auditions for the closrs role and see which one steps up. Hansen will be better this year with a new pitching coach, Bard touches 100MPH when he feels like it and could easily do it all the time as a closer, Cox I'll be honest I don't know much about him, just what I've heard, and from that he sounds like he has the stuff for it.

 

I don't expect another Paps to fall into our laps( although it could happen) but just because we don't have a closer now doesn't mean we won't find one amongst the ranks.

 

I am def. against sending Bucholz and Bowden for Cordero. To me starting pitching is priceless. either do like I suggested above or go after someone else who is cheaper, like dusch in Oakland or someone like that that won't cost an arm and leg. I still believe we can find a closer out of the three guys I suggested above.

 

Bosox, BIG difference man. You are talking about Papelbon, a young flame thrower who was brought through the sox system properly and was fully ready for the majors both in demeanor and in stuff. Then you have Hansen who was rushed, and questions obviously abound as to whether he can handle Boston, the majors etc. If you want to throw Hansen, a guy who hasnt handled the pressure well at all thus far, into the closers role on day one, then you might as well give the yankees the east again. He still has some serious growing pains, as he should be in AAA right now if the sox cared about developing him correctly.

 

As for Cox, he was drafted last season and was successful, but only made it to High A ball for 13 games. I dont think you make that jump from a small sample in A ball to major league closer without significant risk to the player's development. If they care about bringing Bryce along and are trying to avoid what they did to Craig Hansen, then Bryce shouldnt touch the majors until mid season of 2008 AT THE EARLIEST.

 

Bard hasnt thrown a minor league pitch. If you think it best to give the John Olerud treatment (for those who dont know he never spent time in the minor leagues until a rehab assignment for Boston in 05) to a young pitcher who didnt even have blow away success in college as a starter, then you are rushing a player again.

 

Now, starting pitching is priceless, if it is high level, A-#1 talent that is can't miss. That is very rare. Of the minor league prospects who I put in that grouping, there are only two right now and that is Hughes and Homer Bailey of the reds. Previous A#1 guys IMO were Prior, Liriano, and Felix in Seattle. You dont deal those guys before hitting the majors.

 

Other than that, dealing kids who will start the season in single A is a common practice, assuming you deal the right ones and you deal them for the right reasons. If the sox wanted to nab Todd Jones from Detroit as a one yr stopgap, I'd be against dealing any strong starting pitching prospects, cause once those guys hit the bigs, Jones is gonna be gone and it will be the bagwell, larry anderson thing all over again. But when you are talking about a 25 yr old closer with major league success and durability, then you are gonna have to give up something to get him.

 

Now, anytime you package starting pitching prospects, especially highly regarded ones, you better get a sure thing in return. If you wish to say Cordero is not a sure thing, as Kilo so eloquently put it, then you have a good, sound reason to move away from the table. As for what I'd do in those shoes, I'd say, take Hansen (about the same age as Cordero and obviously not as polished) and then something is going to be needed to bridge the gap. They need pitching, and for a team that picks near the top every yr in draft order, they are one that never seems to pick pitching and if they do, they cannot develop it properly or they pick crappy picks. They want pitching. So, you say, take ONE pitching prospect from our system. And since none of them stand out as WOW prospects yet (either without the wow stuff or the wow production in the minors thus far) you can get away with sending either B or any other guy for them so long as it is not Lester.

[example1]

example. I dont think you are making a fair analogy here. You keep tossing in Sanchez like he is some sort of low level minor leaguer. If you want to make a fair analogy' date=' then it should be JB Cox (will be in AAA as a closer/SU man this yr just like Hansen should be) and one of the trio of Chamberlain, Kennedy or Betances. I never advocated sending the Nationals Hansen, Buchholz, and Bowden. I did advocate sending them Hansen and whichever one of the B's they liked best. So, if Mo up and retired right now, then I'd tell the Nats "you can have Cox and one of the trio of Chamberlain, Betances, and Kennedy." Make your pick.[/quote']

 

I don't care what you were advocating. The discussion and rumor was about Bowden, Buchholz and Hansen. That's what I'm responding to. You're right though, its too much.

[jacksonianmarch]

I don't care what you were advocating. The discussion and rumor was about Bowden' date=' Buchholz and Hansen. That's what I'm responding to. You're right though, its too much.[/quote']

 

you asked me if I would send Chamberlain, Sanchez, and Farnsworth to the Nats for Cordero. I was trying to make a similar analogy to the one being proposed here.

[seabeachfred]

Ex1, I have full faith in our scouting department; they have done a magnificent job the last few drafts. No; where I have some doubt is in our minor league coaching system. The guy who screwed up Hansen's delivery and release point may have rendered that young arm useless to us. The guy's pitches really moved and darted all over the place when he was signed and brought up for a cup of coffee in '05 only to have some yahoo mess around with him and turn him into a wildman and a batting practice pitcher when he did get one over the plate. Why can't these guys leave well enough alone? I coached baseball for 30 years and had some players, both pitchers and hitters, who were very unorthodox. I left well enough alone. If a guy can hit standing on his head---leave him alone. If a pitcher can throw from under his legs---leave him alone. I have seen this happen so often since I've followed baseball. What a stupid waste.

[jacksonianmarch]

i think they were worried about durability and his motion. If that is the case, then you must tinker.

[seabeachfred]

i think they were worried about durability and his motion. If that is the case' date=' then you must tinker.[/quote']

 

Jack, it didn't seem to hurt him during his college career throwing as he did and he pitched for three seasons with no injuries. You're right, though. That's what the Red Sox were saying about Hansen's delivery, but as you can see the tinkering did nothing but render him almost useless to us last season. I'll bet no one in the Yankee organization is tinkering around with Phil Hughes' delivery. The Red Sox seem to do this a lot much to the detriment of its players. There is a time to leave well enough alone.

 

What of the Johnson deal? Is it on or off. I keep getting all kinds of differing reports on the different boards I post on. You know anymore than I do? Let me know. Have a good day Jack; I'm sure we'll be exchanging posts again today.

[jacksonianmarch]

Jack, it didn't seem to hurt him during his college career throwing as he did and he pitched for three seasons with no injuries. You're right, though. That's what the Red Sox were saying about Hansen's delivery, but as you can see the tinkering did nothing but render him almost useless to us last season. I'll bet no one in the Yankee organization is tinkering around with Phil Hughes' delivery. The Red Sox seem to do this a lot much to the detriment of its players. There is a time to leave well enough alone.

 

What of the Johnson deal? Is it on or off. I keep getting all kinds of differing reports on the different boards I post on. You know anymore than I do? Let me know. Have a good day Jack; I'm sure we'll be exchanging posts again today.

 

if you want to see the latest on Johnson, check the johnson post. I updated it with the az central's story this am.

 

As for hansen, a guy by the name of Kerry Wood didnt really have an injury history when he his the majors either. But adding innings to poor mechanics leaves him a shell of his former self.

[seabeachfred]

if you want to see the latest on Johnson, check the johnson post. I updated it with the az central's story this am.

 

As for hansen, a guy by the name of Kerry Wood didnt really have an injury history when he his the majors either. But adding innings to poor mechanics leaves him a shell of his former self.

 

Jackson, too bad there couldn't be a happy medium with altering a man's mechanics and keep him effective. Good point on Wood but remember Wood came over the top and was mainly a fast ball pitcher; Hansen's best pitch is a hard breaking slider and he comes from three-quarters to sidearm. We still need a closer, though, and he might have to be given a shot at it. God help us all.:thumbdown :thumbdown

[jacksonianmarch]

Jackson' date=' too bad there couldn't be a happy medium with altering a man's mechanics and keep him effective. Good point on Wood but remember Wood came over the top and was mainly a fast ball pitcher; Hansen's best pitch is a hard breaking slider and he comes from three-quarters to sidearm. We still need a closer, though, and he might have to be given a shot at it. God help us all.:thumbdown :thumbdown[/quote']

 

Wood comes across his body when he throws the ball. That is very interesting, because if he had perfect mechanics, he would have broken 100 regularly, because throwing across your body saps your velocity. If I remember correctly, Hansen opened up a bit early, leaving a lot of strain on his shoulder. It also cause him to release the ball with a tail, which made him effective. They fixed the opening up bit, but the bite fell off his heat.

[seabeachfred]

Have you ever coached baseball Jackson? You sound like a fellow coach emeritus. Yes, you are very correct. Throwing across your body is absolutely taboo and will destroy an arm more than most other things will. However, opening up too soon should can be corrected without losing movement on the ball; it all depends on release point and how you hold the ball. I suspect there was more to the change in Hansen's delievery than meets the eye. I hope they work on that in ST so he can get that great movement again. That might result in his being the type of reliever we believed he would be when the Red Sox drafted him.

[jacksonianmarch]

Have you ever coached baseball Jackson? You sound like a fellow coach emeritus. Yes' date=' you are very correct. Throwing across your body is absolutely taboo and will destroy an arm more than most other things will. However, opening up too soon should can be corrected without losing movement on the ball; it all depends on release point and how you hold the ball. I suspect there was more to the change in Hansen's delievery than meets the eye. I hope they work on that in ST so he can get that great movement again. That might result in his being the type of reliever we believed he would be when the Red Sox drafted him.[/quote']

 

I think they tinkered with his arm slot to try and avoid his opening up too soon. If you sling 3/4 it is very easy to drop a little further here and there. It is not a very consistent motion and is prone to error. Plus, it leaves you vulnerable to injury as sometimes you will open that shoulder too soon and sling a ball at 5/8 or sidearm. They tweaked to protect their investment. They created a s***** pitcher who should stay healthy.

[seabeachfred]

That's exactly what the Red Sox need, a s***** pitcher that stays healthy, especially when we face your team. As Eli Wallach told Yul Bryunner in "The Magnificent Seven"-"I don't think you've solved my problem."[/b]

[ORS]

Of course, that analysis is all wrong. In fact, the only thing relevant about Jacko's analysis is the first 4 letters, a.n.a.l., because that is where it comes from, straight from his ass.

 

Hansen's odd delivery can be attributed to how low he drops his elbow prior to release. Elbow injury has always been the concern, not should injury, which is what would occur in Jacko's scenario.

[Mr Crunchy]

someone oughtta get hansen on the cheezit diet

put some weight on that boy

 

hes been a disappointment so far but he isnt even old enuff to drink yet let alone carry the burden of the bullpen

he'll get the ball in march in key situations and obviously if he performs well

he may indeed get a pop unless a big $$$ big name guy gets moved here

[jacksonianmarch]

Hansen's odd delivery can be attributed to how low he drops his elbow prior to release. .

 

Plus, it leaves you vulnerable to injury as sometimes you will open that shoulder too soon and sling a ball at 5/8 or sidearm.

 

ORS, I can see the idea of elbow injury being a problem too, but shoulder injuries are rampant in guys with low slot deliveries. If their published reasoning is the elbow, they are also saving the shoulder too.

[seabeachfred]

ORS' date=' I can see the idea of elbow injury being a problem too, but shoulder injuries are rampant in guys with low slot deliveries. If their published reasoning is the elbow, they are also saving the shoulder too.[/quote']

 

Interesting to read the take on things you guys are espousing, but all I would like to know :angry: :angry: is how can we fix Hansen up to keep him healthy and maybe make him an effective relief pitcher. What we have right now is just the opposite. A good idea to make him a closer in the spring to see how he handles "the pressure" down in Florida, which is hardly a real test but the best they can come up with under the circumstances. Of course, if we all will jog our memories a little, there were not too many chances of closing games last Spring since our Grapefruit League record was a little on the crappy side.

[jacksonianmarch]

what you do is put him in AAA as the closer. Tell him that he will NOT be called up to the majors this yr. Tell him that the job in AAA is his whether he gives up 9 runs an outing or whether he K's everyone he faces. See if he can do that before giving him big league aspirations. There was no reason for him to hit the majors in the yr he was drafted and it is about time to take their time with him. He has the stuff to be a shutdown closer, but immaturity and lack of confidence could really be a problem for a kid.

[ANiMAL]

what you do is put him in AAA as the closer. Tell him that he will NOT be called up to the majors this yr. Tell him that the job in AAA is his whether he gives up 9 runs an outing or whether he K's everyone he faces. See if he can do that before giving him big league aspirations. There was no reason for him to hit the majors in the yr he was drafted and it is about time to take their time with him. He has the stuff to be a shutdown closer' date=' but immaturity and lack of confidence could really be a problem for a kid.[/quote']

 

 

 

wow, i cant beleive that i actually agree with you about hansen. im in shock