Who's on Second?

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

the sox are always in first place early on. It isnt a season without the red sox in first on June 1st. I actually thnk that the sox have been in first place on June 1st every season since 1999. I heard that somewhere' date=' not sure if it is substantiated.[/quote']

 

Works for me...in that case we can let Pedroia have first half growing pains while we ride in 1st place....or for those who don't want to deal with a young kid....should we just go get a injured Marcus Giles or old man river Mark Loretta?

[jacksonianmarch]

Works for me...in that case we can let Pedroia have first half growing pains while we ride in 1st place....or for those who don't want to deal with a young kid....should we just go get a injured Marcus Giles or old man river Mark Loretta?

 

If I were a sox fan, I'd resign Loretta to a 1 yr deal. I'd send Pedroia to AAA and have Loretta at 2b in Boston. About a month in, I'd check on the kid. If he is lighting it up, then I'd bring him up at the beginning of the next roadtrip and see if he finds it. Give him 20 games, if he shows he can hang, then he earns the spot. If he struggles send him back down to get hot again.

[a700hitter]

Last year Mark Loretta was struggling to hit .200 for the first month and a half. Somehow we got by and were in first place through the first half with him batting 2nd. Not to mention we had Alex Gonzalez batting 9th.

 

Dustin Pedroia can hit better than Alex Gonzalez. If our #9 hitter is batting .250....it will have no effect on our rankings in the standings.

 

Don't forget that Pedroia was coming on at the end of last season. I regret moving Hanley Ramirez.....and lots of people had just as high hopes (if not more) for Pedroia.

He was up in September and he looked like crap. He showed nothing special, no special skills which would justify the FO's optimism for him.

[jacksonianmarch]

I agree with you 700. His best asset may be that he is a hard nosed player who takes average skills and makes himself an above average player. That isnt something that is quantifiable and due to that, he should have a shorter leash than most. Most players can rely on talent, he cannot.

[example1]

Please adjust these stats for the differences between the eras. The league ERA s and BA's and other offensive stats were much lower. This comparison is not at all valid. Sandberg was a can't miss prospect with plus power' date=' speed, arm etc. He had tools. And he became a HOFer thanks to those tools. Pedroia has no plus tools, none. Your comparison to a totally different era is no more valid that comparing his stats to those in the dead ball era.:thumbdown You lost credibility comparing this kid to a Hall of Famer.[/quote']

 

How could I be so stupid as to randomly pull Ryne Sandberg out of thin air to compare him to. I mean, that was really pathetic of me, to say "He's Ryne Sandburg".

 

But wait, YOU said "He's not Ryne Sandburg". You brought him up. If you bring him up and then accuse anyone who brings him up of essentially being a dumbass then one would need to assume that you are, by extension, a ... well you can fill in the blank. One would assume that, with a statement like that, a comparison is possible and I did a cursory one. If you want to do a more in-depth one then go ahead, but don't bring up credibility when it was your argument in the first place.

 

Very, very weak a700.

[example1]

I agree with you 700. His best asset may be that he is a hard nosed player who takes average skills and makes himself an above average player. That isnt something that is quantifiable and due to that' date=' he should have a shorter leash than most. Most players can rely on talent, he cannot.[/quote']

 

You guys are obsessed with the "5 tools" viewpoint. One of the tools is not "getting on base", although "getting on base" has been shown to be the tool most associated with scoring runs and, therefore, winning.

 

He has tradtionally been above average at getting on base and above average in the field. He's proven his worth at every level, so why aren't you wanting to give him a shot at 2B? Why should the Sox waste their time thinking about who ELSE they should have at 2B when there's every reason to think that, at worst, Pedroia will be an MLB average 2B when we don't have a closer and our bullpen needs improving?

[a700hitter]

How could I be so stupid as to randomly pull Ryne Sandberg out of thin air to compare him to. I mean, that was really pathetic of me, to say "He's Ryne Sandburg".

 

But wait, YOU said "He's not Ryne Sandburg". You brought him up. If you bring him up and then accuse anyone who brings him up of essentially being a dumbass then one would need to assume that you are, by extension, a ... well you can fill in the blank. One would assume that, with a statement like that, a comparison is possible and I did a cursory one. If you want to do a more in-depth one then go ahead, but don't bring up credibility when it was your argument in the first place.

 

Very, very weak a700.

He's not Ryne Sandberg. He's not Joe Morgan. He's not even Lou Whitaker. I don't care what their rookie stats show from 30 and 40+ years ago. Those were different eras that cannot be compared to today without significant statistical adjustment. Those guys were very highly regarded and sought after talent. Do you think this slow little midget could ever steal more than 15 bases in a season? The Red Sox don't run, but he's too slow to steal more than 15 bases for any team. He also tends to get a little pudgy. Just what everyone wants a short, fat, slow middle infielder. Could he ever regularly steal 30-50+ bases each year like Sandberg and Morgan? Will he ever regularly hit 20+ HRS like those guys? Could he ever hit 40 in a year like Sandberg? Is there a scout out there that projects him to be the next Sandberg, Morgan, or Whitaker? No, there isn't, and to compare him to them is just laughable. I didn't compare him to them. I said that there is no comparison. Keep in mind that even the great Morgan, Sandberg and Whitaker were not handed starting jobs at such an early age on contending teams. The Astros were an 8th place team when Morgan became a starter. Sandberg and Whitaker were on 5th place teams. The Red Sox need to make this kid win the job, not just hand it to him on a team with this talent and payroll.

[example1]

He's not Ryne Sandberg. He's not Joe Morgan. He's not even Lou Whitaker. I don't care what their rookie stats show from 30 and 40+ years ago. Those were different eras that cannot be compared to today without significant statistical adjustment. Those guys were very highly regarded and sought after talent. Do you think this slow little midget could ever steal more than 15 bases in a season? The Red Sox don't run' date=' but he's too slow to steal more than 15 bases for any team. He also tends to get a little pudgy. Just what everyone wants a short, fat, slow middle infielder. Could he ever regularly steal 30-50+ bases each year like Sandberg and Morgan? Will he ever regularly hit 20+ HRS like those guys? Could he ever hit 40 in a year like Sandberg? Is there a scout out there that projects him to be the next Sandberg, Morgan, or Whitaker? No, there isn't, and to compare him to them is just laughable. I didn't compare him to them. I said that there is no comparison. Keep in mind that even the great Morgan, Sandberg and Whitaker were not handed starting jobs at such an early age on contending teams. The Astros were an 8th place team when Morgan became a starter. Sandberg and Whitaker were on 5th place teams. The Red Sox need to make this kid win the job, not just hand it to him on a team with this talent and payroll.[/quote']

 

 

I agree that he's not a hall of famer and likely will never be. YOU brought up Ryne Sandberg then went off on me for talking about him. That's all. Otherwise we agree.

 

Where we disagree is in what needs to happen next. I think the sox should have a better backup plan than cora, but I don't think they should re-sign Loretta. I would be willing to bet that Pedroia will come into camp next year in excellent shape and ready to play. I suspect that one reason he has been called the starter is so he expects to get a lot of at-bats in spring training and has that addtional pressure. He could get 60 AB's in before the season starts and be rolling already. I imagine that's what the Sox are hoping for.

 

They can't go into this without a backup plan, but I have no problem handing the reigns off to Dustin at this point and letting him see what he can do on the big stage. As long as he's getting on base and fielding well that's all I'm looking for from a rookie who has the potential to gain valuable experience on a championship caliber team. You want to build around young talent? Throw some of them in and let them make a name for themselves.

[jacksonianmarch]

I think the sox are still trying to figure out if they are in a win now mode or in a win later mode. The cash being divied out would make it seem like win now, IMO and hence you should have a little better of an option than a rookie 2b who was terrible in his first glimps of MLB, when the pressure was off. With Schilling in his final season and Manny/Papi one yr older, how much longer can the machine keep running? If you give the job to pedroia it should be earned. Cause if he struggles to a .240 2HR 40RBI season "adjusting" to the bigs, then he will seriously hurt the team.

[a700hitter]

I think the sox are still trying to figure out if they are in a win now mode or in a win later mode. The cash being divied out would make it seem like win now' date=' IMO and hence you should have a little better of an option than a rookie 2b who was terrible in his first glimps of MLB, when the pressure was off. With Schilling in his final season and Manny/Papi one yr older, how much longer can the machine keep running? If you give the job to pedroia it should be earned. Cause if he struggles to a .240 2HR 40RBI season "adjusting" to the bigs, then he will seriously hurt the team.[/quote']Exactly, right.

[riverside sluggers]

The #9 hitter will kill the team? alrighty

 

Also a low-ball prediction of .240, 2 HRs, 40 RBIs

 

He'll go on to hit 2 HRs in his first 89 ABs, then just 2 HRs for his first full season?? I think not, expect a Loretta type 7-12 HRs. He also hit .271 after his torrid 4 for 41 start to the majors

[seabeachfred]

Well it is obvious some people are going to have egg on their faces sometime late next year on the Pedroia issue, but I'm saying right now it won't be the pro-Dustin camp. Schill brought up a good point in that Loretta was hitting around 205 for the first six weeks of the season and Goonzales even a lot worse and we seemed to be doing ok. Well the hitless wonder is gone and Loretta won't be back from all reports and taking their place is Lugo who will hit better than Gonzo did with a blindfold on, and Pedroia will certainly hit better than 205 during that stretch. The kid can play, needs an opportunity to show it. He has nothing more to prove down at Pawtucket where he his 305 after missing all of Spring Training because of an injury and getting off to a miserable start in the IL. He is ready.

[Fried Neckbones]

I agree with you 700. His best asset may be that he is a hard nosed player who takes average skills and makes himself an above average player. That isnt something that is quantifiable and due to that' date=' he should have a shorter leash than most. [b']Most players can rely on talent, he cannot.[/b]

 

Exactly. He has to rely on hard work, hustle, doing all the little things. That's how a "slightly pudgy, undersized player with no obvious skills" managed to become a very good player at every level he has stopped at. I mean, he's a friggin' 9 hitter. Seriously. He hits 9th. Let's not panic here, people.

[jacksonianmarch]

Exactly. He has to rely on hard work' date=' hustle, doing all the little things. That's how a "slightly pudgy, undersized player with no obvious skills" managed to become a very good player at every level he has stopped at. I mean, he's a friggin' 9 hitter. Seriously. He hits 9th. Let's not panic here, people.[/quote']

 

BUT, if he starts to get overpowered, you already know that he is at maximal workload. It isnt like a slacking guy who you need to get more out of. If he comes to Boston, hits around Mendoza, dont expect him to ascend rapidly like guys with smashing talent. He really reminds me of Loretta.

[Cocos Disciples]

Hmm...funny you bring up Mark Loretta.

 

Loretta in fact, in 2006, began at the Mendoza line...217 average in April. He finished at a .285 rate.

[CrespoBlows]

The #9 hitter will kill the team? alrighty

 

Also a low-ball prediction of .240, 2 HRs, 40 RBIs

 

He'll go on to hit 2 HRs in his first 89 ABs, then just 2 HRs for his first full season?? I think not, expect a Loretta type 7-12 HRs. He also hit .271 after his torrid 4 for 41 start to the majors

 

Sarcasm?

[Fried Neckbones]

After his first 20 games last year, he was hitting .137. After the final 10 (no PA in his last game), he was up to .191. He had one multi-hit game his first 20, 3 in his final 10. Not a bad improvement, especially for a guy who was hit in 5 different spots in the lineup, and was dropped in as a pinch hitter about a quarter of the games he appeared in. At age 22. Once he gets some consistent playing time, a steady workload and a spot in the order, he'll be fine.

[CrespoBlows]

but hes not horrable just 2 seasons age si ranked him the best number 2 in the line up hes got grit and plays every day i had no bad memories of him

 

He's also a .285 hitter with little power, little range, and little upside.

[hoke3182]

no problems here with pedroia, got to give the guy a shot sometime

[seabeachfred]

I think it is about time we give the second base job to Dustin Pedroia and let him run with it. You know what? I think the kid is going to be just fine there. He has been a standout everyplace he's played---Arizona State, A, AA, and Pawtucket. He has nothing more to prove down there or on the bench. He can be a very solid player for us for a long time and I believe we have enough to concern us in the closer department and the Drew negotiations to keep us busy enough. Leave Dustin alone. He's our new second baseman and I think for a very long time.

[example1]

After his first 20 games last year' date=' he was hitting .137. After the final 10 (no PA in his last game), he was up to .191. He had one multi-hit game his first 20, 3 in his final 10. Not a bad improvement, especially for a guy who was hit in 5 different spots in the lineup, and was dropped in as a pinch hitter about a quarter of the games he appeared in. At age 22. Once he gets some consistent playing time, a steady workload and a spot in the order, he'll be fine.[/quote']

 

Very well said Fried Neckbones. It has been written about a few times already but Pedroia really did have some tough outs during his time with the Sox. I think I remember about 6 hard hit balls lined at infielders and some hard ground balls as well. If some of his balls get through we're talking about a .270 hitter.

[seabeachfred]

After his first 20 games last year' date=' he was hitting .137. After the final 10 (no PA in his last game), he was up to .191. He had one multi-hit game his first 20, 3 in his final 10. Not a bad improvement, especially for a guy who was hit in 5 different spots in the lineup, and was dropped in as a pinch hitter about a quarter of the games he appeared in. At age 22. Once he gets some consistent playing time, a steady workload and a spot in the order, he'll be fine.[/quote']

 

Bravo Fried Neckbones. At least there are some of us here who can see this kid has what it takes. The way he was misused by Francona this past season was criminal, but, then again, that's the bumbling Tito. I have more confidence in Dustin showing greater improvement and progress next season than I do our manager.

[BSN07]

tito might not be the best strategy manager out there, but he's a Boston type a guy so I like him. And i'm sure Pedroia will be fine and tito will handle him with care. All he really has to do is play Good D and hit a little and that would be nice. Just aslong as eveyone doesn't expect .300+ avg and 20HRS from the guy. he will be fine, someone said he looked like a Loretta clone, which is fine by me.

[seabeachfred]

Bosox, remember the 2004 Playoffs? Sure you do, but do remember that Francona went up against three outstanding managers and out coached them all in the playoff run. I could never figure that one out seeing how he routinely screws up pitching changes and lineup juggling. Well hopefully next season we will see him at his best without any of his throwaway lineup that he's famous for early in the season. As for Pedroia I really believe he will be a 300 hitter after a couple of seasons in the Bigs. He has a lot of sting in his bat and many fans don't seem to realize that. Anyway, it will all come out in the wash.

[jacksonianmarch]

Bosox' date=' remember the 2004 Playoffs? Sure you do, but do remember that Francona went up against three outstanding managers and out coached them all in the playoff run. I could never figure that one out seeing how he routinely screws up pitching changes and lineup juggling. Well hopefully next season we will see him at his best without any of his throwaway lineup that he's famous for early in the season. As for Pedroia I really believe he will be a 300 hitter after a couple of seasons in the Bigs. He has a lot of sting in his bat and many fans don't seem to realize that. Anyway, it will all come out in the wash.[/quote']

 

seabeach, is the glass always full on your end? Saying that Terry will manage flawlessly is like saying Torre will know what inning the game is in.

[seabeachfred]

Jackson, I love ya!!!! You're always good for a Don Rickles rejoinder. I have to hope that Francona has his head on straight because I see this guy more than you do and, believe me, some of the things he pulls could be good fodder for some alien side show. I guess you have similar feelings about Torre, but at least your guy has won four rings. Anyway, it is always tough tacos when you have to worry about your manager screwing up what the players have worked so hard to accomplish. Keep them coming my friend.

[jacksonianmarch]

Jackson' date=' I love ya!!!! You're always good for a Don Rickles rejoinder. I have to hope that Francona has his head on straight because I see this guy more than you do and, believe me, some of the things he pulls could be good fodder for some alien side show. I guess you have similar feelings about Torre, but at least your guy has won four rings. Anyway, it is always tough tacos when you have to worry about your manager screwing up what the players have worked so hard to accomplish. Keep them coming my friend.[/quote']

 

I know the feeling. Torre doesnt do things that are flat our stupid, but he does not know how to manage a pitching staff. He leaves his starters in well past their done time to a point to where he costs games. Then he goes to the exact same relievers until they burn, then he burns out the next guy. A perfect example was Villone. The guy hardly got used in key situations until May/June. Then he was the first guy brought in, until he exploded in August and he was never brought it. The funny thing is, if Proctor hadnt been replaced for a little over a month as the primary middle man, Proctor would have gone over 120IP.

[seabeachfred]

I have always wondered why the Red Sox never hire a manager with a reputation as a big winner. They seem to go for retreads the like of which Francona, Little, J. Williams, Morgan, McNamara, etc, seem to fascinate them. The last really good skipper they had was Dick Williams but he got fired because he couldn't get along with Carl Yaz. Once of these days the team will realize that it all starts at the top, and that a real good manager can win an extra half-dozen games for a team during a season and that a mediocre one can lose even more.

[TheKilo]

I have always wondered why the Red Sox never hire a manager with a reputation as a big winner. They seem to go for retreads the like of which Francona' date=' Little, J. Williams, Morgan, McNamara, etc, seem to fascinate them. The last really good skipper they had was Dick Williams but he got fired because he couldn't get along with Carl Yaz. Once of these days the team will realize that it all starts at the top, and that a real good manager can win an extra half-dozen games for a team during a season and that a mediocre one can lose even more.[/quote']

 

 

Francona was brought in to get Schilling. Also, he had a pretty good two week run in October 2004 to which we should be grateful.

 

Pen usage aside, you can do a lot worse than Terry Francona.

[seabeachfred]

Francona was brought in to get Schilling. Also, he had a pretty good two week run in October 2004 to which we should be grateful.

 

Pen usage aside, you can do a lot worse than Terry Francona.

 

That's just the point Kilo; Francona outmanaged three of the best in the business that October run and it just puzzles me why he cannot do that most of the time. His calls that 2004 miracle run were amazing and he completely befuddled Joe Torre in those last four games, not to mention how he outfoxed Tony LaRussa in the WS. You saw it; you had to see how good he was then. Maybe I'm just asking too much but I think that while we could a lot worse, as you say, we could certainly do better if Terry takes charge the way he did back then. Just my opinion. Thanks for the post.