Boston Herald: Talks Break Down With Matsuzaka, Deal Unlikely To Get Done

[BoSox34]

Bo' date=' those icons might be more appropriate at the end of the week but hopefully we will get this thing done. What's your take. Do we get him or not?[/quote']

 

Doesn't look like it at this point.

[jacksonianmarch]

On the low end the Red Sox are at $90 million for this guy. On the high end they are at $110 million. Seibu is getting $51.5 million for a guy that will be walking in a year or two. It doesn't take a genius to see who has more to give here. Why would Boras be talking about three parties in this transaction and saying that one of them cannot be selfish unless he is talking about Seibu? If he thought the Red Sox were being cheap' date=' why would he be talking about a three party deal. As far as I know this is at the juncture of bi-lateral negotiations with the Red Sox. He's clearly pressuring Seibu. Do the Red Sox have more money? Yes, but they are not going to give a blank check to a whore like Boras. The will be spending more than $100 million on this guy. I am sure that $100 million exceeded Boras expectations. He's pissed about the split.[/quote']

 

in the end, Boras saw 2 figures. 51.1 mil which everyone knows is a sunk cost prior to "talking" with the client. That shows how much the sox are willing to invest in him. Then, the number he really cares about is the amount he and his client sees. In his mind, why the hell should the sox pony up 51 mil to talk with him and then lowball him? Overall, he doesnt give a s*** where he gets the money from, so long as he gets it. But I think the sides are a lot further apart than seibu can help them with. If the sox are talking about having him under control for 6 yrs, and they are short 8-10 mil a yr in what Boras wants, then seibu would have to kick in 48-60 million dollars, which would render the posting fee moot.

[yankeessuck013]

The funny thing is if Boras does not get him signed he can kiss any future Japanese players hiring him. If Dice-K doesn't sign with the Sox he will have no place to go as the Lions want the money b/c they are having financial troubles. He'll be in a Sox uniform with or without Boras. As far as the money goes Boras always goes high with the Sox and in turn they always go low but end up meeting in the middle. I figured the Sox would give him 12-13 a year (schilling money). Take Teks contract Boras said he had other teams offering him 5 years @ 12 a year (even though there were no signs of any other teams interested) and the Sox offer 3yrs @ 8 a yr hence the 4yr 40 million dollar deal.

[a700hitter]

in the end' date=' Boras saw 2 figures. 51.1 mil which everyone knows is a sunk cost prior to "talking" with the client. That shows how much the sox are willing to invest in him. Then, the number he really cares about is the amount he and his client sees. In his mind, why the hell should the sox pony up 51 mil to talk with him and then lowball him? Overall, he doesnt give a s*** where he gets the money from, so long as he gets it. But I think the sides are a lot further apart than seibu can help them with. If the sox are talking about having him under control for 6 yrs, and they are short 8-10 mil a yr in what Boras wants, then seibu would have to kick in 48-60 million dollars, which would render the posting fee moot.[/quote']He's smart enough to know that the guy has a value to an organization, and that it is probably in the neighborhood of $90-110 million. The Red Sox are pretty much there. Waht's burning Borass's whoring ass is that Seibu gets $51.5 million of it. Well, that's the system. Too bad for Borass. It's just called tough s***. He's the one in the box. He can't get Seibu out of this scenario. Good luck to him in convincing his client to pitch two more years in Japan.

[BSN07]

5 years 65 million, thats my guess at what he will sign for.

[seabeachfred]

5 years 65 million' date=' thats my guess at what he will sign for.[/quote']

 

Me? Well I'm heading out to Newport Beach to see my favorite Irish band perform. Right now I'm so confused as to which way this thing is going that I cannot really me much of a contributer. BoNation, you do the thinking for both of us until I get home tonight. Who knows? Maybe a miracle may develop and we'll hear of an imminent signing.

[Bud]

I'm starting to get nervous that he won't be on our team...

 

Boras, STOP BEING SUCH A PRICK AND START BEING REASONABLE FOR ONCE!!!!

[jacksonianmarch]

I think the better overall investment if you are looking at amount of total dollars Matsu will make from today until the day he retires is to hit the market as a FA. Lets assume for a moment that Matsuzaka signs with the red sox at the age of 26 for 6yrs at 10 mil per. That is 60 mil total until he is 32. When he is 32, he will likely not get a big contract because he will be considered Pedro-esque in size and stuff. That means he may get a Pedro deal of 4 yrs 50-60 mil, lets call it 60 mil. At 36, he will likely be done. So, to recap, you have a guy who has the next 10 yrs of his career planned out at 110-120 mil total, assuming he has a solid career and earns that second contract.

 

Now assume for a second he goes back to Japan and barring injury is the exacts same pitcher as he was this past season. He will likely get 10 mil for the next 2 yrs in Japan, then he would hit the states as a 28 yr old Japanese Pedro. He would get a 7-10 yr contract for 15-20 mil per to a team he would have a choice to go to. That is 105-200mil for doing nothing in the states, hence he will not have to earn that second contract. THAT is the big draw. That is the big money and that is a gamble he should be ready to make if the sox lowball him.

[a700hitter]

I think the better overall investment if you are looking at amount of total dollars Matsu will make from today until the day he retires is to hit the market as a FA. Lets assume for a moment that Matsuzaka signs with the red sox at the age of 26 for 6yrs at 10 mil per. That is 60 mil total until he is 32. When he is 32, he will likely not get a big contract because he will be considered Pedro-esque in size and stuff. That means he may get a Pedro deal of 4 yrs 50-60 mil, lets call it 60 mil. At 36, he will likely be done. So, to recap, you have a guy who has the next 10 yrs of his career planned out at 110-120 mil total, assuming he has a solid career and earns that second contract.

 

Now assume for a second he goes back to Japan and barring injury is the exacts same pitcher as he was this past season. He will likely get 10 mil for the next 2 yrs in Japan, then he would hit the states as a 28 yr old Japanese Pedro. He would get a 7-10 yr contract for 15-20 mil per to a team he would have a choice to go to. That is 105-200mil for doing nothing in the states, hence he will not have to earn that second contract. THAT is the big draw. That is the big money and that is a gamble he should be ready to make if the sox lowball him.

 

I had heard that he makes $3 million/yr in Japan. If the Red Sox come up with a 5 year/$60 million package, he's short $18 million which he'd have to recoup in his first 3 seasons of his eventual US contract, which would mean that he'd have to get $18 million/year. That's just to break even going into 2012 at that doesn't even take into account the time value of the $18 million that he'll have in his pocket after 2009. He would have to take the risk of injury for two years and hope the market explodes to a point where he will get over $20 million/year without ever having thrown a pitch in the US. There's not much in it for him taking into account the risk of injury. He's coming to Boston.

[example1]

You dont understand seabeach. Assume for now that the deal does not get done. Assume Matsuzaka spends another yr in Japanese purgatory' date=' but in doing so, he is the face of the new system by which there is free trade of japanese and american players alike. Matsuzaka and Boras would be heroes by allowing young japanese players to realize their dreams in american baseball. I think this is the plan that Boras is pitching along with the obvious of an absolutely ridiculous payday in a yr.[/quote']

 

As far as I know Japanese players can come to America if they want. THey just tend to sign contracts with Japanese teams that keep them from coming here. If, for instance, the Yankees had swooped in when Matsuzaka was 18 and attempted to sign him they could have.

 

I don't think Matsuaka and Boras will be "heroes" for being greedy. If he gets injured or is unsuccessful in MLB then both will look like asses if they don't sign with Boston.

[example1]

I think the better overall investment if you are looking at amount of total dollars Matsu will make from today until the day he retires is to hit the market as a FA. Lets assume for a moment that Matsuzaka signs with the red sox at the age of 26 for 6yrs at 10 mil per. That is 60 mil total until he is 32. When he is 32, he will likely not get a big contract because he will be considered Pedro-esque in size and stuff. That means he may get a Pedro deal of 4 yrs 50-60 mil, lets call it 60 mil. At 36, he will likely be done. So, to recap, you have a guy who has the next 10 yrs of his career planned out at 110-120 mil total, assuming he has a solid career and earns that second contract.

 

Now assume for a second he goes back to Japan and barring injury is the exacts same pitcher as he was this past season. He will likely get 10 mil for the next 2 yrs in Japan, then he would hit the states as a 28 yr old Japanese Pedro. He would get a 7-10 yr contract for 15-20 mil per to a team he would have a choice to go to. That is 105-200mil for doing nothing in the states, hence he will not have to earn that second contract. THAT is the big draw. That is the big money and that is a gamble he should be ready to make if the sox lowball him.

 

 

Why be posted then? Why have the "goodbye" ceremony? Why start saying he's coming the the US to play? It sure doesn't look to me like this is a guy who believes the only way he'll pitch here is if he makes more money. This is his DREAM JOB man, and as someone who does NOT have his dream job, I'll tell you its partly about the money, but not all about the money. Matsuzaka is a god in Japan. He's rich already. He'll be rich if he signs with the Sox for 10m a season. He'll be rich if he stays in Japan. It doesn't matter that much. He's got an enormous payday coming, the question is whether he wants to spend 2 seasons in Japan or if he wants to play in the US next season.

 

How many minor league players do you think would give up a little bit off the "big payday" to get into the majors more quickly? Why would this guy want to pitch one more pitch in NPB? What is there left to prove?

[example1]

Sorry to triple post, I just woke up.

 

Here's the line from the Herald article that makes me certain this is just a sox FO plot, to release the worst case scenario to the public and presenting the reason that the deal fell through to remind Boras that he, not the Sox, will look like the ass when this is all over:

 

However, the well-placed source blamed Boras for stubbornly being unable to get over the flaws in the Japanese posting system, saying that he has been unwilling to negotiate and that he has acted disinterested in even making a deal.

 

This is some petty, high-schoolish s*** here. It's akin to saying "I heard from bobby that Jane won't go out with him because Jane is a cruel bitch who doesn't like Boys. She's made it hard for him to get to know her." It may be true, it may not, but it sure sounds petty and contrived to me. It sounds like posturing and there's reason to believe its just that. I can see it now:

 

Sox official: "put something in there ripping on Boras."

Herald: "We're not the Globe!"

SO: "Exactly! That makes you guys seem more credible."

H: "Fine. What are you thinking?"

SO: "Well, no quotes or anything. How about an unnamed source? How about something along the lines of 'if Boras doesn't get his s*** together he's going to go home empty handed, because he's a stubborn son of a bitch. I don't even think he wants to get a deal done, that bastard."

H: "So, something like 'Boras for stubbornly being unable to get over the flaws in the Japanese posting system, saying that he has been unwilling to negotiate and that he has acted disinterested in even making a deal?' "

SO: yes, excellent. Remember, no quotes, just unprofessional journalistic paraphrasing using unjournalistic terms like 'stubbornly' and 'unwilling to negotiate' and 'disinterested'.

H: "Sigh. Fine."

[ORS]

This has to be one of the funniest things I've heard all year. Boras is going to challenge and end the posting system, opening the market for young Japanese stars to be free-agents? In what court of law? He might end the practice of MLB participating in the posting process, or at least get them to change it. But, he's not opening the Japanese market. What incentive does NPB have to end the current system? None. If the posting system ends, then they'll just go back to controlling players for 10 years before they lose them as FAs. Boras has no power and no court over here has any jurisdiction to force the NPB to do something that is clearly not in their interest. The fact that anyone thinks he can force this change is outright hilarious. People will believe anything when viewed as a fan.

[Bud]

Boras is gonna ruin his reputation with the Japanese - let's see if any other player hires him on after this catastrophe

[BSN07]

If this all falls threw, everyone will think Boras is a complete ass:thumbsup: If they already don't:D

[example1]

Personally, I'm not that interested in thinking Boras is an ass. I'm interested in watching Matsuzaka pitch for the Red Sox next season.

[BSN07]

Yes I would like to see him pitching for us next year too. That said I won't get my hopes up until a deal is inked. And if it doesn't then the Sox will still still have to play there games.

[Anuj09]

well who the hell else is out there?! the Sox need Dmat

[TheKilo]

This is what, the 5th time the link has been posted?

[HeadOfSoxNation]

Everyone dogs on Boras all the time...and I can't stand it. Sure, I hate how the guy suckers every possible penny out of teams for the services of the players that he represents, sure he's a pain in the ass to deal with, sure teams dread having to negotiate with him, and sure sometimes he gets money that players don't neccessarily deserve...but those things don't make him an *******. They make him the best agent around...hands down, bar none. I'm not saying for a second that the guy doesn't irritate the bejesus out of me; he surely does, but he's FANTASTIC at what he does. Of COURSE he's not going to say that there's significant progress or any progress at all...he's not going to let the Sox know that they might be considering whatever the Sox most recent proposal is...they want to make it seem like there's no way in hell they're going to sign the currently proposed deal and try to make the Sox raise it up. They have time, they may as well use it to squeeze the extra dollars and cents out of their negotiating partner. Contract negotiations are a chess match, and Boras is Bobby f***ing Fischer.

[He Hate Me]

Jesus' date=' even when it's just a matter of making a fair deal he has to be an ass. I mean everyone knows he's a good agent, but this is just plain ********. Yeah, he's ARGUABLEY one of the best starters in the game, but as I stated before, he could be Irabu part duex. I don't understand why they can have a 3 year deal with the clause he wanst so much for around 12 mill.[/quote']

 

I dont think it would be too good a move paying $51m just to sign him to a 3 year deal. thats 3 years 87m then he becommes a UFA, a BORAS UFA

[He Hate Me]

btw this is typical posturing

[Cityofchampions33]

I dont think it would be too good a move paying $51m just to sign him to a 3 year deal. thats 3 years 87m then he becommes a UFA' date=' a BORAS UFA[/quote']

 

Of course it's not a good idea for us but if Boras wanted to compromise that would probably be part of it with the money per year going down.

[BoSox21]

there's gonna be a lot of ups and downs with this story in the next 4 days but if no deal is reached, I place blame squarely on the FO's shoulders

 

if Dice-K wants a deal and the FO wants a deal, then Boras has no leverage. He works for Dice-K

[SuperManny]

there's gonna be a lot of ups and downs with this story in the next 4 days but if no deal is reached, I place blame squarely on the FO's shoulders

 

if Dice-K wants a deal and the FO wants a deal, then Boras has no leverage. He works for Dice-K

 

Yeah if Boras is demanding $15M a year and an out clause after 3-4 years and won't budge it would clearly be the FO's fault

 

If there is no deal by the deadline then we can see whos at fault and I'm guessing it would be a combination of each side. You can't just arbitrarily blame one side, and that goes for the people that blame Boras for everything too.

[Cityofchampions33]

there's gonna be a lot of ups and downs with this story in the next 4 days but if no deal is reached, I place blame squarely on the FO's shoulders

 

if Dice-K wants a deal and the FO wants a deal, then Boras has no leverage. He works for Dice-K

 

Thats not entirely fair, teh FO has done everything in it's power so far in negotiations. The only thing holding this deal up is Boras. There haven't even been reports of him offering a counter offer, so right now it's basically what Boras wants or no deal at all.

[Gom]

This has to be one of the funniest things I've heard all year. Boras is going to challenge and end the posting system' date=' opening the market for young Japanese stars to be free-agents? In what court of law? He might end the practice of MLB participating in the posting process, or at least get them to change it. But, he's not opening the Japanese market. What incentive does NPB have to end the current system? None. If the posting system ends, then they'll just go back to controlling players for 10 years before they lose them as FAs. Boras has no power and no court over here has any jurisdiction to force the NPB to do something that is clearly not in their interest. The fact that anyone thinks he can force this change is outright hilarious. People will believe anything when viewed as a fan.[/quote']

 

The world must be ending soon...because I completely agree with...[choke]...O...[gag]..RS.

 

The fact of the matter is the dangerous precedent it will set. The problem here lies in the fact that this is two different leagues, two different systems, and two different countries, without one law or jurisdiction involved. Truthfully, what if any Japanese player decides to say "screw my contract with a Japanese team, I'm going to play for the Yankees [or Dodgers, Sox, Mets, etc.]". How can anyone stop him? Japanese baseball can't. If the MLB freezes him out, especially if he applies for and gets accepted by the union [don't tell me that Fehr won't let him in due to the precedent he can be in charge of prosecuting], he can sue MLB for blackballing his player due to unfair labor policies. It would be a re-enactment of the case of McNally and Messerschmidt in the late 1970's. Once again, the union would win.

 

Now, I'm not a lawyer, so I won't claim to know all the legalities involved. However, the system needs to change.

 

Now to point out some observations.

 

First of all, Matsuzaka's first choice was the Yankees. This was made obvious, and by his wife's desire to live/work in New York as well. Never underestimate the power of a woman in her husband's negotiations [one reason I'm not married, lol].

 

Secondly...players know what they are getting with Boras as an agent. Top dollar. To say that any player doesn't realize this is utter foolishness. I don't buy the honor, pride, etc. If that was the case, you don't sign with Boras. The only player I have ever known who signed with Boras who was different was Bernie Williams. Boras had a contract all ready from the Red Sox for Bernie, and Bernie told Boras he only wanted to play in NY and get it done. Of course, all this came out after the fact.

 

So, the odds are Boras and the Sox will take this down to the last possible moment. I still think a contract can and will get done, that this report is just more blustering and showmanship, all part of the game, but realize...although there are precedents to be set possibly, or a change in the system, etc...it all comes down to money. If Boras gets it, Matsuzaka pitches game 2 of the ALDS for you guys against the A's. If not...well...we just may see.

[seabeachfred]

I'm starting to get nervous that he won't be on our team...

 

Boras, STOP BEING SUCH A PRICK AND START BEING REASONABLE FOR ONCE!!!!

 

Bud, This past week I have been somewhat on a high since we upgraded big time at two spots where we needed to, J.D. Drew in RF and Julio Lugo at SS. no to mention Kawajima as set-up candidate. Now it looks like the lot of us Red Sox aficianados might be heading for a downer. I think the odds are now 50-50 and I'm trying to be optimistic on this score. Boras isn't going to hear what your saying and he won't hear the rest of us. He has something to prove but I have seen other agents in different sports over-reach and it led to their undoing. Boras is going to go that route some day. You know something, it came to me the other day. In the fall of 1966 I was in an Argumentation and Debate Class at Long Beach State College and one of my classmates was a young lady named Pam Boras. When in a conversation I told her I loved baseball and coached it in the summer she told me she had a young brother who was a great Little League pitcher and his name was Scott. I wonder if he was the kid that grew up to be such a royal *******?

[seabeachfred]

Who do you suggest the Sox bring in instead to be their 5th starter?

 

--Do not list Lester as a possible candidate to be in the opening day rotation.

 

-- Free agent options are *Roger Clemens (his agent has indicated he'd like another mid-season signing), injury riddled Mark Mulder, Miguel Batista, Mark Redman, Jason Johnson, Runelvys Hernandez, Russ Ortiz, Bruce Chen, Tony Armas Jr, Paul Wilson, Shawn Estes, Kevin Jarvis

 

-- Trade options where teams will know Sox will desperately need a starter and ask for the world in return: Jon Lieber, Jason Jennings, Jon Garland, injury riddled Bartolo Colon, injury riddled Mark Prior

 

-- Inside options: Kyle Snyder, Kason Gabbard, Devern Hansack, David Pauley

 

Great points made Riverside, and I can tell you right now you can eliminate Snyder from that list. We don't want that KC reject anywhere near the mound next season. Hansack pitched a great five innings the last day of the season and while I don't know much about him he sure looked good on MLB TV that day. Gabbard and Pauley? Mere journeymen types to me. As for trade options, I have always thought Lieber might be a good addition to any staff. Then, again, let's sign Matsuzaka.

[yankeessuck013]

I dont know what everyone is getting freaked out by. This is SCOTT BORAS we are talking about. He was going to bring this down to the final hour no matter what the Red Sox offered. I imagine the night before the deadline we will hear they're back at the table, then mid day on the deadline day we will hear they are close, and by 10 PM rumors will leak that a deal is done